Energi or Hybrid - weight concerns

[Randi Borys]

Good Morning

 

A few days ago we went int a dealership to look at the Edge. My husband is 6'3" and 300 lbs. none of the Fords he tried so far really worked. I saw they had some good incentives in the Edge, so he thought he would check it out.

 

Next to the Edge was a CMax which he hadn't seen before. He thought it looked really roomy. So he drove it. It was the most fun driving he had had in awhile. My husband is a bit crunchy granola, so a hybrid is attractive.

 

We have a couple of options. The incentives to lease the Energi are pretty good. There are really no incentives to buy the hybrid.

 

We haven't leased before, but I think it might be a good idea to lease a plug in. I realize it will cost about 1000 to install a "charger" at my house. I know it isn't a charger, but the term escapes me. Ultimately we may buy a plug in vehicle.

 

My biggest concern is weight. We have always had cars that had about an 800-900 lb payload limit. The three of us are a little over 700. We are trying to lose weight, but not in the next cpl of days.

 

I found something that said the payload on a C Max Hybrid was in the 800 range, but that an Energi would be 300 lbs less because of the battery. Is this true?

 

I know it would wear the tires more, but is there anything else I should be concerned about with the weight? Will it cause any other damage I could be dinged for when we turn it in?

 

The lease is probably two years.

[fotomoto]

We own both and can tell you this:  the good news is you can't go wrong with either choice; it really depends on your wants and needs.

 

The payload specifics are labeled on the door frame of every car and can vary depending on the number and weight of optional accessories, wheels, etc.  According to Ford.com, the Energi is 250 lbs heavier.

 

With a relatively small battery, you don't "need" a level 2 (240v) EVSE (charger) but they come in handy if you do a lot daily trips.  $1,000 install is on the high end unless it's a difficult installation.  I installed my $500 Clipper Creek myself for a whopping $27 in materials cost.   EVSE's costs are coming down with more competition.  

 

Over a short term lease, the only other thing besides tires that might wear out that I can think of would be the shocks but I think they would be OK.  Most inspections upon return are more visual (dents, scrapes, etc).  

 

The cars are basically identical.  The hybrid is cheaper and more room in the hatch.  The NRG is an EV and can deliver incredible fuel economy.  I'm at 115 MPGe lifetime in mine and 40 mpg in our hybrid.

[Randi Borys]

Thanks,

 

I started looking into,it, and I guess I don't need the upgraded EVSE. My husband is not electrically inclined, and while I am actually very technically oriented, I have a rather unrealistic fear of electricity. I was severely shocked as a child. So we would pay our electrician to do it, and he says everything is about $300. I thought the EVSE ran about $700, but I didn't look that hard.

 

So if I have 120s on the outside of my house I can use those if there is a dedicated circuit, right? I think that might be the case for the one in the front yard. Garage is at the back of our lot and we don't actually use it for cars. The driveway at the top it too narrow for a car.

 

My husband drives 8 miles to work. He could easily plug in for eight hours at night.

[bro1999]

Thanks,

 

I started looking into,it, and I guess I don't need the upgraded EVSE. My husband is not electrically inclined, and while I am actually very technically oriented, I have a rather unrealistic fear of electricity. I was severely shocked as a child. So we would pay our electrician to do it, and he says everything is about $300. I thought the EVSE ran about $700, but I didn't look that hard.

 

So if I have 120s on the outside of my house I can use those if there is a dedicated circuit, right? I think that might be the case for the one in the front yard. Garage is at the back of our lot and we don't actually use it for cars. The driveway at the top it too narrow for a car.

 

My husband drives 8 miles to work. He could easily plug in for eight hours at night.

 

Charging @ 240V takes just over 2 hours from a depleted battery. On 120V, it's more like 5.5-6 hours. I have a Clipper Creek LCS-25 unit, which costs $495. Works just fine with my C-Max and Volt, and they both only charge at 3.3 kW, while the LCS-25 has a max output of 4.8 kW.

 

About outdoor 120V charging, you'll have to consider whether an extension cord will be used, and also the condition of the outlet and whether any other outlets are on the same circuit inside the house. Plus there is always the small chance someone could swipe your L1 charging cord. =/

 

Charging @ 240V also is more efficient than 120, due to smaller charging losses. (30% on L1 vs ~20% on L2). You'll probably never save enough on electricity to make up the cost of the L2 unit, though. Getting a L2 installed is more about convenience and, to a smaller extent, safety.

Edited May 29, 2014 by bro1999

[salsaguy]

If getting an Energi be sure the smaller cargo area in the back is going to work for you. The hybrid had a much bigger cargo area which is still a lot less than most SUVs.

 

Don't forget to locate the nearest charging stations around your town to charge for free, if you go that route.

 

I say never lease a car as the always get you on the back end with even minor dings and scratches sms a little over max mileage and you get reamed big time with a big add on cost. If you do that start saving now for that unexpected expense.

But with the electric car it may may sense and especially since a new CMax with new design is supposed to come out in 2015 so a short term may let you upgrade with a new model sooner.

[ArizonaEnergi]

After a year, 10,000 miles, and one long vacation trip I have not found the reduced storage area (about 8" less than the hybrid) to be an issue. It might keep me from carrying a lazy-boy (did two of those in my Odyssey) but hasn't been an issue yet for normal purposes.

 

A dedicated 120v circuit is not required, but attention to what is running on the circuit is, and that why God made circuit breakers.

 

I don't see the family weight to be a problem.

Edited May 30, 2014 by ArizonaEnergi

[ptjones]

Doing the math when you subtract for battery and gas it only leaves you 464lbs useful load, I would say that is a deal breaker. Putting you and your husband in the car you have probably gotten close to that not adding anything else. I won't recommend running over gross all the time, I think I have done it a couple of times with my Hybrid CMAX. ;)

 

Paul

[ArizonaEnergi]

The limit for Combined Weight of Cargo and Occupants for the Energi is 825 pounds (less any installed add-ons, like a hitch). Gasoline and extra battery weight have already been accounted for in arriving at this number.

[Edsel]

I'm would hope they tweaked the suspension a bit to compensate for the extra battery weight.

[ptjones]

The limit for Combined Weight of Cargo and Occupants for the Energi is 825 pounds (less any installed add-ons, like a hitch). Gasoline and extra battery weight have already been accounted for in arriving at this number.

 

I'm would hope they tweaked the suspension a bit to compensate for the extra battery weight.

This is getting more confusing as we go along, but I hope from dealers manual these are the numbers. Hybrid Gross Vehicle weight 4641lbs. - curb weight  3607lbs = 1034lbs.

                                                                                                                                                    Energi "           "          "       4960lbs -  "       "         3850lbs = 1110lbs.

 

Now the Tire Label says 825lbs which is "the combined weight of cargo and passengers" minus  any Dealer authorized options.  From these numbers it looks like FORD is building in some extra safety margin. I would think FORD would have to use some heaver duty springs and shocks or struts on Energi. I would think there would be a penalty for the Energy carrying around the extra 250lbs in both City and Hwy MPG's while in Hybrid Mode. IMO :)

 

Paul

[Smiling Jack]

This is getting more confusing as we go along, but I hope from dealers manual these are the numbers. Hybrid Gross Vehicle weight 4641lbs. - curb weight  3607lbs = 1034lbs.

                                                                                                                                                    Energi "           "          "       4960lbs -  "       "         3850lbs = 1110lbs.

 

Now the Tire Label says 825lbs which is "the combined weight of cargo and passengers" minus  any Dealer authorized options...........

.......

.......

 

Paul

 

 

So the tire label for the Hybrid states the payload weight as 209 lbs less than the difference between the Gross allowable and the vehicle weight and the label for the Energi shows it as 285 lbs less.

 

I infer that the tires are the limiting factor in both cases and that in both cases a switch to larger capacity tires would result in a few hundred pounds more payload capability.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Smiling Jack

[kostby]

Some validation what Smiling Jack said above: 

 

Both C-MAX and C-MAX Energi OEM Michelin 225x50r17 Energy Saver All Season Green X tire specs list the max load at 1433 lb per tire.

 

The C-MAX specs I found list weight distribution at 57.7% front/42.3 % rear:

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/c-max-hybrid/2013/road-test-specs1.html

 

The maximum C-MAX Hybrid GVWR is 4641 pounds *.577 = 2677, or 1339 lb per tire, about 94 lb per tire under the 1433 lb max.

 

I didn't find weight distribution specifics for the Energi model, though it would be logical to think that if the C-MAX SE and SEL were 57.7/42.3, then the Energi weight distribution could be closer to 54/46 because of the 250 pound heavier battery is located toward the rear.

 

In any case, using the (likely high) 57.7% maximum and Energi GVWR of 4960 pounds *.577 = 2861 pounds for the front end load, or 1430.5 lb per FRONT tire, only 2.5 lb below the 1433 lb max at maximum load. That seems like a pretty slim margin for error after the Ford Explorer/Firestone tire debacle of 2000.

 

Using the unproven, but more far likely weight distribution of 54% of Energi GVWR of 4960 pounds would be 2678 lb for the front end load, 1339 per FRONT tire, about 94 lb per front tire under the 1433 lb maximum load.

 

Tire specs came from here:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Energy+Saver+A%2FS&partnum=25VR7ESAS&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Ford&autoYear=2013&autoModel=C-MAX%20Energi&autoModClar=&tab=Specs

Edited May 31, 2014 by kostby

[ptjones]

Some validation what Smiling Jack said above: 

 

Both C-MAX and C-MAX Energi OEM Michelin 225x50r17 Energy Saver All Season Green X tire specs list the max load at 1433 lb per tire.

 

The C-MAX specs I found list weight distribution at 57.7% front/42.3 % rear:

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/c-max-hybrid/2013/road-test-specs1.html

 

The maximum C-MAX Hybrid GVWR is 4641 pounds *.577 = 2677, or 1339 lb per tire, about 94 lb per tire under the 1433 lb max.

 

I didn't find weight distribution specifics for the Energi model, though it would be logical to think that if the C-MAX SE and SEL were 57.7/42.3, then the Energi weight distribution could be closer to 54/46 because of the 250 pound heavier battery is located toward the rear.

 

In any case, using the (likely high) 57.7% maximum and Energi GVWR of 4960 pounds *.577 = 2861 pounds for the front end load, or 1430.5 lb per FRONT tire, only 2.5 lb below the 1433 lb max at maximum load. That seems like a pretty slim margin for error after the Ford Explorer/Firestone tire debacle of 2000.

 

Using the unproven, but more far likely weight distribution of 54% of Energi GVWR of 4960 pounds would be 2678 lb for the front end load, 1339 per FRONT tire, about 94 lb per front tire under the 1433 lb maximum load.

 

Tire specs came from here:

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Energy+Saver+A%2FS&partnum=25VR7ESAS&vehicleSearch=true&fromCompare1=yes&autoMake=Ford&autoYear=2013&autoModel=C-MAX%20Energi&autoModClar=&tab=Specs

The only thing that makes sense is that FORD up graded suspension on the Energi for the additional weight. :)

 

Paul

[fotomoto]

The only thing that makes sense is that FORD up graded suspension on the Energi for the additional weight. :)

 

Paul

 

 

I entered both my hybrid and NRG VIN's into fordparts.com and came up with the same part number for the rear springs.   Well that clears things up............. not!

[ptjones]

Thanks for clearing that up fomoto. So in theory if the suspension parts are the same then the Hybrid has a 250lbs extra margin.  I wonder how much lower in the back an Energi sits than Hybrid. :)

 

Paul

[ArizonaEnergi]

The weight distribution specifics for the Energi model are 2,467 front and 2,493 rear for a total of 4,960. I don't see it sagging in the back!

[ptjones]

The weight distribution specifics for the Energi model are 2,467 front and 2,493 rear for a total of 4,960. I don't see it sagging in the back!

fomoto has both and I thought he could measure the difference in height in the back to see how much the springs compress with the added weight. I will try to get my wife to sit on back bumper and see how much it changes. LOL :)

 

Paul

Edited May 31, 2014 by ptjones

[ptjones]

Well I did it, had my wife sit in the trunk and  the rear lowered 1/2". So now we know what effects the HVB (250lbs) has on the CMAX. :)

 

Paul

[C-MaxSea]

   @#$%^&*(){}|L:"  :redcard: :redcard: :redcard: @#$%^&*()_.........................  :rant:............................ :sos:

Edited June 1, 2014 by C-MaxSea

[ptjones]

   @#$%^&*(){}|L:"  :redcard: :redcard: :redcard: @#$%^&*()_.........................  :rant:............................ :sos:

Nothing bad happened, All good. I'm not saying anything more. LOL :)

 

Paul

[bro1999]

So did we ever come to a conclusion about differences between the hybrid and energi versions? From what I can gather from this thread, all the part numbers for the suspension and tires, etc.... are exactly the same.

 

So basically the hybrid's GVWR rating can be (unofficially) boosted 250#?

[ptjones]

So did we ever come to a conclusion about differences between the hybrid and energi versions? From what I can gather from this thread, all the part numbers for the suspension and tires, etc.... are exactly the same.

 

So basically the hybrid's GVWR rating can be (unofficially) boosted 250#?

It kinda looks that way unofficially(FORD isn't saying that), but that is what the math looks like. I know I have been over  825lbs a couple of times although not 250lbs worth. :) 

 

Paul

[fbov]

A few thoughts...

 

This explains why Ford checks tire pressures whenever the car's in for service. Anything less than the door card values could get you into tire trouble.

 

Conversely, Michelin rates the tires for 1433 @ 51psi, so one would think that max rated pressure was needed for the load rating, but...

 

Michelin makes both P225/50-17 (OEM) and 225/50-17 (not a P-metric tire) sizes.

 

The latter is a 94V rated tire with a 1477 @ 44 psi load rating, compared with the P-metric's 93V rating, with a $9 premium and a 0.7" reduction in tread width.

 

Food for thought...

 

Practically speaking, I expect maintaining tire pressures is a far more important thing than worrying about overloading, unless one uses the car for work that requires a load of tools or something similar, and long, hot drives. Teh slight overinflation many of us do only increases the margin of safety in this regard.

 

Have fun,

Frank

[bro1999]

A few thoughts...

 

This explains why Ford checks tire pressures whenever the car's in for service. Anything less than the door card values could get you into tire trouble.

 

Conversely, Michelin rates the tires for 1433 @ 51psi, so one would think that max rated pressure was needed for the load rating, but...

 

Michelin makes both P225/50-17 (OEM) and 225/50-17 (not a P-metric tire) sizes.

 

The latter is a 94V rated tire with a 1477 @ 44 psi load rating, compared with the P-metric's 93V rating, with a $9 premium and a 0.7" reduction in tread width.

 

Food for thought...

 

Practically speaking, I expect maintaining tire pressures is a far more important thing than worrying about overloading, unless one uses the car for work that requires a load of tools or something similar, and long, hot drives. Teh slight overinflation many of us do only increases the margin of safety in this regard.

 

Have fun,

Frank

 

+1

On the Chevy Volt owner's forum, there have been cases of sidewall blowouts, with the cause being extra stress put on the sidewalls due to UNDERinflation. If anything, under-inflation is more dangerous that overinflation, as far as tire blowouts are concerned. Especially with EVs like a Volt or NRG, where the vehicle weight is considerably more than a similar sized conventional ICE vehicle. Higher psi = less sidewall flexing.

[bro1999]

Ok, I dug up the specs for the 2013 UK version of the C-Max, and the curb weight (listed as kerbweight in the brochure. ha) of the Ecoboost 2.0 version is 1550 kg (3417 lbs), while the gross vehicle weight (GVWR here) is 2050 kg (4519 lbs). So that means the total weight capacity of passengers + cargo is 1102 lbs. The US C-Max's have a 825 lb load capacity, or 277 less than the euro spec. I'm not sure of the differences of the suspension/frame/tires, etc....between the US and euro spec C-Max's, but assuming they use the same materials for each, it may be safe to assume the physical weight capacity of the 2 are the same.

It could be that Ford chopped the load capacity of the US C-Max's due to the hybrid powertrain? 

It could also be the reason Ford kept the load capacity of the C-Max Energi at 825, because they knew even with the extra 252 lbs of batteries, the overall weight would still fall below the 1102 lb capacity of the euro spec C-Max, the 'true' figure.

 

http://www.ford.co.uk/Hidden/iBrochure/C-MAX

Edited June 3, 2014 by bro1999