New Costco Tire Rotation/Nitrogen Program

[ScubaDadMiami]

On previous vehicles, once the first set of tires needed replacing, I used to get my tires from Costco. They provide free rotation and balance for life. I plan on doing this when it is time for my tire replacement on the C-MAX.

 

The new news is that, the other day, I was in Costco, and I saw that they will now provide these services for tires that have not been purchased from Costco. Of course, there is a fee.

 

I gave it a shot. I had my tires converted to Nitrogen fills, tires rotated and balanced, all for about $40, including TPMS servicing. There is a one-time charge for the optional Nitrogen conversion; future top-offs are free. I think that rotation and balance was around $23, but this is without Nitrogen conversion.

 

I have been told all sorts of things about when to rotate tires. It seems that I always have snow tire noise not long after the purchase of a new vehicle. I've replaced tires, had alignments, and I've been pretty strict about making the rotations on previous vehicles, but I kept having the same issues. On one vehicle, I even paid about $1,200 for new struts and the like, but I kept getting the same issues. So, this is how I became so strict about rotations, and I now I follow what the various tire experts tell me, which is to rotate at about 6,000 mile intervals.

 

Rather that going to the dealer for such a basic thing, I am going to use Costco for this service between major servicing, and then I will go to the dealer for major servicing along with rotations at those times. That should cover the issue.

 

So far, the C-MAX has been pretty good about tire noise up to about 16,000+ miles, though I do get some noise between about 35-45 MPH.

 

Just putting this out there for anyone that wants to get their tires maintained between major servicing, but without having to go to the dealer. They even schedule appointments, so you can do shopping while they work on your vehicle.

 

It will be interesting to see if the Nitrogen holds pressure better/for longer than air, and if my fuel economy improves.

Edited October 2, 2014 by ScubaDadMiami

[ArizonaEnergi]

Glad to hear Costco is doing this now. Will take advantage of it, sans nitrogen which I think is useless in cars, at 20,000 miles, having done it myself at 10,000.

[fotomoto]

Nitrogen is NOT snake oil; the benefits are real but..... the high costs from most places easily outweigh the advantages.  Your costco deal is certainly way better than most stealership offers.  Speaking of stealerships,  you'll need to make very certain that when you go there for the other services that they don't top off your tires with free air because, I assuming, costco won't purge/refill your tires for free to get them back to 100% nitro.  

[wab]

I'm too tight to spend $ on nitrogen so I've developed a cheaper method.

 

Regular ol air coming out of the hose is almost 80% nitrogen, oxygen is only about 20%.

 

Because Oxygen is bigger than Nitrogen I make a tiny leak so that I have to add air pretty often.

I figure after a few times the nitrogen in the tires is getting close to 100% so I stop the leaks :yahoo:.

[plus 3 golfer]

"Rather than pay extra for nitrogen, most drivers would be better off buying an accurate tire pressure gauge and checking and adjusting their tire pressures regularly."  _{Tire Rack}

[ArizonaEnergi]

I found the C-Max tires to hold pressure the best of any tire I've owned. Probably have only had to adjust them once or twice in the last two years.

[Marc Smith]

WAB,  actually,  the O2 molecule is smaller than N2.  which is why  you get the slow drop off of tire pressure.   since N is bigger  It won't leak as bad,  nor does its volume change as much with the difference between eat and cold...  This means  your tire pressures  remain more stable  as your tires heat up or for those of us with winter, the outside temps drop...

 

The other benefit to all nitrogen  is the purging of the water vapor inside the tires...

Edited October 3, 2014 by Marc Smith

[plus 3 golfer]

I found the C-Max tires to hold pressure the best of any tire I've owned. Probably have only had to adjust them once or twice in the last two years.

The general rule of thumb for tires is 1 psi loss of pressure per month due to time for air in tires.  I have't seen anything for nitrogen in tires. But air is 79% nitrogen.  The rule of thumb for temperature is about 1 psi for every 10 F change in ambient.  The Michelin energy saver might be a better tire with respect to leakage through the tire.

 

I've found that once the ambient temperature starts to drop, I increase pressure several times between summer and say January to maintain cold pressure of about 44 psi.  Then, the pressure seems to remain relatively constant as the ambient begins to increase over the next 6-7 months.  My morning garage temp today is 82 F which is down about 10+ F from summer temps.  It will drop to just under 60 F in winter.  So, that equates to maybe 35+ F difference from summer to winter or about 3 - 4 psi due to temperature change.  Factor in  drop in pressure due to time, and I'd say 6+ psi change is not out of the question going from summer to winter.  Going from winter to summer, the rising temperature likely offsets the losses due to time as I don't generally need to adjust the pressures in this period. 

Edited October 3, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[obob]

http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/should-you-fill-your-cars-tires-with-nitrogen.html

 

Article that concludes "Based on cost, convenience and actual performance benefit, we don't think nitrogen is worth it. A much better use of your money would be to buy a good tire-pressure gauge and check your tires frequently. This is a good idea even if you have a tire-pressure monitoring system in your vehicle. The warning lights aren't required to come on until you have less than 25 percent of the recommended tire pressure. Having the correct tire pressure will get you many of the benefits of using nitrogen and will ensure that your tires last longer."

 

and it goes into the reasons why.

 

 

 

 

 

Just to see the other side of the debate, here is an article from what I gather is a manufacturer of nitrogen filling equipment. ( My experience is that it was fear inducing and avoided the understanding of the edmunds article. )

 

http://www.nitrofill.com/nitrogen-filled-tires-faqs.aspx

Edited October 3, 2014 by obob

[plus 3 golfer]

"As soon as a tire is manufactured and exposed to air, the effects of "oxidation" begin to deteriorate the rubber. Over time it loses its elasticity and strength, just like an old rubber band you've probably found around your home. This same process occurs in tires inflated with air as the oxygen attacks the rubber molecules, working from the inside out, until the oxygen, and its destructive properties, permeates the tire structure and ultimately the tread." _{-From the link above}

 

Of course what the link doesn't mention is that for most drivers, the tread will wear out long before age deterioration is an issue - yes, typical "scare tactic" for the uninformed consumer.
 

[Kelleytoons]

And, of course, the air on the outside does the same thing (attacks the rubber molecules).  One might argue that, because it's under pressure, the "inside air" is worse than the "outside air" but I'd say that was hogwash more or less.  I've NEVER had anyone sell me tires tell me they were "all worn out inside" (and you'd think, if that did happen, the tire sales people would use that as a tactic).

 

I suspect it *might* save a tiny bit of money and no where near the cost of doing it -- but if it makes you feel good...

[scottwood2]

Good to know Costco offers this service. I like Costco a lot and shop there regularly.  I am not loyal to any company but I must say that Discount Tire is the exception to the rule for me.  I have no connections to this company but they have been absolutely incredible for me.  They offer free tire rotations period.  Take any car in there and they rotate them.  Does not matter where you bought them.  I don't think they offer nitrogen if that is what you want. 

 

First thing they did for me was my boat trailer tires.   Wanted new tires for vacation.  They did not have what I wanted in stock.  They put on a new set of tires for the trip at no charge because they said they wanted me to have a save trip and the old tires were not in very good shape due to age.  When I came back from the trip they changed them out to what I wanted with no additional charge for the tires used on the trip.  I also purchased tires for my xB and after about a year, while I was getting them rotated, we talked and I told him I did not like the tires and would not buy them again.  He said we want our customers happy and gave me a full refund on the tires (after a year) to go towards a new set of tires.  I had to eat the price of the balancing but that was more than fair.  Their prices always seem good too.

 

I know I sound like a salesman but I like this company that much that I don't mind giving them a plug here. 

[wab]

WAB,  actually,  the O2 molecule is smaller than N2.  which is why  you get the slow drop off of tire pressure.   since N is bigger  It won't leak as bad,  nor does its volume change as much with the difference between eat and cold...  This means  your tire pressures  remain more stable  as your tires heat up or for those of us with winter, the outside temps drop...

 

The other benefit to all nitrogen  is the purging of the water vapor inside the tires...

 

OPS that's what I meant to type, O2 gets out N2 stays in.

We use N2 in telephone cables to keep them dry.

 

Anyway almost 80% for free and $50 to $300 for the other  :lol: 20% is a scam alert to me.

 

If CostCo is "lifetime balance and rotate" then it's a pretty good deal, I think I paid about $75 at Discount Tire. 

 

[fbov]

It's not hard to baffle non-techincal people with technical topics... we could all use more STEM education!

 

That said, let me behave like a technical person for a moment, and address the assumptions that go into a statement like:

"This same process occurs in tires inflated with air as the oxygen attacks the rubber molecules, working from the inside out, until the oxygen, and its destructive properties, permeates the tire structure and ultimately the tread."

 

Assumptions:

Tire diameter: 26"

Tire width: 9"

Rim diameter: 17

Air density: 1.2-1.3 kg/m^3

O2 density: 1.3-1.4 kg/m^3

Carbon density: 2.26 kg/m^3

 

Tire Internal Volume - subtract 1" from width and 2" from diameter

pi x (tire ID^2-rim OD^2) x width = 7213 in^3 = 118.2L = 0.1182 m^3

 

Internal pressure assumed to be 3x atmospheric (!45 psi), so volume of gas is 3x tire internal volume = 0.3546 m^3

 

So a tire at 20C has 1.3 x .355 = 0.461 kg of air, and 0.036 kg, 92.2 gm, of O2.

 

Now, from chemistry, 1 mole of a gas is it's atomic mass expressed in grams, so...

Oxygen has an atomic mass of 16, so for O2, it's 32... we have 2.9 moles of O2 in the tire. That will react with 2.9 mole of carbon © to form CO, or more likely, 1.44 mole of C to form CO2.

 

I mole of carbon is 12 grams, so 1.44 mole is 17.3 gm.

 

At worst, the oxygen in a tire can only react with about 17 grams of carbon. If a tire weighs 22 lb, 10 kg, this is 0.017% of the tire mass, which I consider insignificant.

 

There is some benefit, however, from removing water vapor... but not from removing O2.

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[ScubaDadMiami]

The Nitrogen thing is more of an experiment than anything. I also opted for 0W20 oil during my last service, just to see if that would improve my fuel economy. So far, I am not seeing a benefit from the oil. I'll report back on the Nitrogen.

 

For me, it was more a matter of the fact that I regularly go to Costco, and this service can be done while I shop. If I rotate and balance every 10,000 miles on the fives (5, 15, 25, 35,000, etc.) the cost is minimal, and this gives me more free time for other things. The dealer can do the rotations at the normal 10,000 mile scheduled service intervals. The only dealer that I trust in Miami is a good 45 minutes each way, so this saves time, includes balancing (which The Works does not include), and is less expensive by a few dollars.

[JAZ]

0w20 oil is really of benefit only in cold temperatures and even then provides only a minor mpg boost.  Mobil claims up to 2 to 2.3% depending on temps, vehicle/engine type, current viscosity used, etc.

[RockwallRick]

Nitrogen works well for maintaining tire pressure, unless you happen to pickup a nail or something. There is a tire dealer where we live that will do it for $20 dollars plus top off for free if necessary.

[ArizonaEnergi]

I see Tom and Ray Mariachi of Car Talk fame, rate the nitrogen-filled tire as a "scam". http://www.cartalk.com/content/scam-detector-7

[Marc Smith]

nitrogen does not expand or contract as much as oxygen in regards to temperature...  fact.

nitrogen atoms are lareger than oxygen..   fact.

filling the tires up with 100% nitrogen  will eleminate any water vapor inside the tires.  Fact

 

while none of thise will help fuel mileage it may reduce the amount of time you spend on checking your tire pressure.   But you still need to keep an eye on your tires to spot abnormal wear, cuts, ect...

 

 

I'd put nitrogen in the same leauge as gas pods, vortex generators and other gimmicks for the daily driver.

 

over the road truckers, public transportation,  race car drivers, ect.  nitrogen is probably a worthwile investment...

 

that being said.  if we got a nitrogen generator at work for our busses...  I'd take advantage of it..

Edited October 4, 2014 by Marc Smith

[plus 3 golfer]

The thermal coefficient of expansion of N₂ vs O₂  and dry AIR is about 0.06 % less than O₂ and about 0.03 % less than air.   So, if cold inflation pressure is 44 psi at say 70 F for each tire and the tires heat up to say 120 F, the pressure increase at 120 F is about 0.03% higher for a AIR filed tire than a N₂ tire - Virtually, no difference at all.  So, if we use the typical change in pressure of 1 psi for each 10 F temperature change (can't exactly calculate because as tire pressure changes the tire volume is likely not constant and also changes with temperature and pressure), the AIR filled tire will be about 49 psi at 120 F .  Then, the N₂ filled tire at 120 F might be 44 psi plus 5 psi X (1 - 0.0003) or 

virtually no difference.  Read the gas test in the link below.

 

Now for the other claims / truths on Nitrogen filled tires and benefits if any,  here's something to read.  

Edited October 5, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[plus 3 golfer]

The benefit of Nitrogen that makes sense to me is that it should be a lot "drier" than air when put in ones tires and thus pressure fluctuations due to temperature differences are less because of less vapor pressure in nitrogen filled than air filled tires.   But I would think that most shops drain the water from their air tanks and / or have coolers that remove water from the hot air and thus lower the water vapor content of the air pumped into ones tires.  How much will the tire pressure 1 psi change per 10 F be reduced due to minimal water vapor pressure in a nitrogen filled vs an air filled tire.  My guess is that in the  70 F to 120 F example maybe 1 or 2 psi with "wet" air.  So, the 49 psi might only be 47 or 48 psi in nitrogen filled tires - really not significant to me.   Here's something from Bridgestone aimed at truck tires.

 

Getting back to Costco's new program.  The question is how much is one willing to pay extra for nitrogen fill given the difficult to quantify $ benefits of Nitrogen filled vs air filled tires for passenger cars. For me, the inconvenience alone of running to a tire shop or Costco every 5 k miles for a rotation or when I need to add air to balance the tires isn't worth the benefit (even if the nitrogen fill is free) since I can rotate and add air at home.  I've had nitrogen fill in tires I've purchased from Costco and simply rotated and topped up at home. Also, I think you can still find "free air" at gas stations should ones tires need air.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[jmckinley]

The thermal coefficient of expansion of N₂ vs O₂  and dry AIR is about 0.06 % less than O₂ and about 0.03 % less than air.   So, if cold inflation pressure is 44 psi at say 70 F for each tire and the tires heat up to say 120 F, the pressure increase at 120 F is about 0.03% higher for a AIR filed tire than a N₂ tire - Virtually, no difference at all.  So, if we use the typical change in pressure of 1 psi for each 10 F temperature change (can't exactly calculate because as tire pressure changes the tire volume is likely not constant and also changes with temperature and pressure), the AIR filled tire will be about 49 psi at 120 F .  Then, the N₂ filled tire at 120 F might be 44 psi plus 5 psi X (1 - 0.0003) or 

virtually no difference.  Read the gas test in the link below.

 

Now for the other claims / truths on Nitrogen filled tires and benefits if any,  here's something to read.  

 

The article referenced in the link is outstanding.  It is the simplest, most accurate summary and debunking of the Nitrogen BS I've seen so far.  Everyone should read it.