Ford Focus Electric - Initial Impressions

[Kelleytoons]

The problem is that you aren't understanding the benefit of preconditioning. A/C uses a lot of energy when you first turn it on to cool a hot car. Just look in your C-Max at how much energy is being used by the A/C in the summer when you first start it up. Preconditioning allows you to get the car cool using power from the wall instead of from the battery. This means that you can start your trip with a full battery and a cool car. Since driving on wall electricity is way more efficient than driving on gas it makes a ton of sense in the Energi vehicles to precondition. Since wall electricity is your only source of "fuel" in an EV it makes a ton of sense to precondition. It takes a lot less energy to keep the car cool than it does to cool it down initially. That is the benefit of preconditioning, you aren't giving up EV range for that initial cool down.

 

No, I think the problem is you aren't understanding the weather here.

 

I don't need A/C when I first start off at home -- it's plenty cool in the garage.  So no need for pre-conditioning.  The only time I'd actually cool down the car would be when it was parked somewhere else -- and thus NOT plugged in.  So, can't use pre-conditioning there.

 

In Florida no real need for it -- but if you are using it here I'd love to know how (and, more importantly, why).

[Adrian_L]

No, I think the problem is you're omitting valuable information:  your garage is your pre-conditioning.  Hybridbear's points strike me as completely reasonable: use the house AC/DC, rather than the ICE when you can.

[Kelleytoons]

No, you still don't get it.

 

I'm not talking about any other locale -- I am talking specifically about Florida (as I've said at least three times now).  Everyone in Florida (EVERYONE) has their vehicle in a garage at night and, if they have a job where they could afford these vehicles, at work as well (or, to put it another way, if they have a job where their employer will provide a plug, they will also provide a garage).

 

Under those circumstances there is absolutely no need and no use for pre-conditioning.  Period.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Kelleytoons

[hybridbear]

I'm not talking about any other locale -- I am talking specifically about Florida (as I've said at least three times now).  Everyone in Florida (EVERYONE) has their vehicle in a garage at night.

That isn't true. Plenty of people don't have garages. We have friends who live in Miami and their entire neighborhood was built without garages.

 

The only time I'd actually cool down the car would be when it was parked somewhere else -- and thus NOT plugged in.  So, can't use pre-conditioning there.

There are public chargers in Florida. Those public chargers are outdoors, not in a cool garage.

 

 

if they have a job where they could afford these vehicles, at work as well (or, to put it another way, if they have a job where their employer will provide a plug, they will also provide a garage).

 

Under those circumstances there is absolutely no need and no use for pre-conditioning.  Period.

Not true. Workplace charging is almost always outside. It may be in a parking ramp, but those aren't hardly any cooler than the ambient temp. Also, plug-in vehicles aren't that expensive. In many cases you can get a C-Max Energi for less than a comparably equipped C-Max Hybrid after the federal tax credit. If you live in a state with state incentives then a PHEV can be much cheaper than the hybrid version of the same vehicle.

 

No, I think the problem is you aren't understanding the weather here.

 

I don't need A/C when I first start off at home -- it's plenty cool in the garage.  So no need for pre-conditioning.

It may be cool in terms of air temp, but what about humidity? Preconditioning will remove the humidity from the air inside the car before you start driving thus making it feel cooler. This would delay the point at which you'd need to turn the A/C on once you start driving outside of your cool garage thus resulting in lower electricity consumption and increased EV range.

[fotomoto]

Kellytoons hasn't meet fellow floridan (jupiter) GaryG; the king of the preconditioners!  He swears by them and they are just one of his many tools for achieving 30+ mile range even in the summer.  

[stevedebi]

OK, Got it.  Thx for clearing that up.

Correct, I was speaking of pre-conditioning.

 

Really, for a pure electric car, I would always use an L2 charger - it just makes sense.

[plus 3 golfer]

The problem is that you aren't understanding the benefit of preconditioning. A/C uses a lot of energy when you first turn it on to cool a hot car. Just look in your C-Max at how much energy is being used by the A/C in the summer when you first start it up. ...

I don't consider around 0.25 to 0.4 kWh a lot of energy for the initial cooling in Phoenix in the summer for a 35*F change in temperature. That might equate to 1 - 2 miles of range reduction for most EVs.  Heating would be significantly worse since I believe resistance heat is used.  I could see it being about 2 x 3 times worse for a 35*F temperature change in the winter (I doubt most garages get below 35*F on average).  So preconditioning makes a lot of sense in the winter but not so much in the summer.

 

In Phoenix in the summer with full sun, 110 F+ ambient, sun shade on windshield, and sun soaked for one+ hours, the climate control demand when the AC is first turned on is slightly over 4 kW.  This initial demand diminishes over the next 5 minutes or so until set point temperature is reached and settles around 500 Watts or so.  If we assume worst case of 4 kW demand for 6 minutes or 1/10 hour, that's 0.4 kWh of energy used.   I've never seen 4 kW of demand for 6 minutes.  I've recorded the approximate time and approximate demand change several times and estimate that 0.25 kWh is about all the energy that is used for the initial cool down.

[Kelleytoons]

Yeah, I think you've said it all.

 

I am nearly positive folks are overrating pre-conditioning in a hot climate -- I know that even when I start up our car after sitting in 98 degree heat (and 90% humidity) it's cool before I can even drive 50 feet.  If preconditioning really saves that energy it can't be much.

 

But they can think what they want (and will -- some folks just don't want to be confused by the facts).

[stevedebi]

Yeah, I think you've said it all.

 

I am nearly positive folks are overrating pre-conditioning in a hot climate -- I know that even when I start up our car after sitting in 98 degree heat (and 90% humidity) it's cool before I can even drive 50 feet.  If preconditioning really saves that energy it can't be much.

 

But they can think what they want (and will -- some folks just don't want to be confused by the facts).

Not sure about the conventional C-Max, but the C-Max Energi Owner manual recommends pre-conditioning.

Edited December 9, 2014 by stevedebi

[PJFW8]

People are reading too much into Kelleytoons observations. If you park in the sun or during the winter in most of the country preconditioning is very useful. I have always preconditioned my Energy.  If you live on central or southern Florida and garage your vehicle, it would do little of value. Parking at the mall in the sun where you can not precondition is unavoidable. If Kelleytoons lived in the mountains like I do he would precondition, but he does not.

[plus 3 golfer]

People are reading too much into Kelleytoons observations. If you park in the sun or during the winter in most of the country preconditioning is very useful. I have always preconditioned my Energy.  If you live on central or southern Florida and garage your vehicle, it would do little of value. Parking at the mall in the sun where you can not precondition is unavoidable. If Kelleytoons lived in the mountains like I do he would precondition, but he does not.

Here's my take. :)

 

The preconditioning discussion stemmed from HannahWCU's initial post on his FFE EV:  "But the biggest hit to range comes with using the cabin heater.  Turning the heat on immediately reduces range by 10-11 miles!!" and his subsequent point on preconditioning.  Then, the discussion somehow jumped to preconditioning for AC AND preconditioning of a PHEV as if the benefits of AC preconditioning were the same as heating preconditioning for an EV or PHEV.  The heating / cooling  benefits simply are not the same unless the car has a heat pump to heat and cool the car (Leaf now use a heat pump) and the EV range benefit only applies when drive a PHEV outside the its EV range.

 

I've attached a study on the Impact of Vehicle Air-Conditioning on Fuel Economy,Tailpipe Emissions, and Electric Vehicle Range.  Now imagine using the resistance heating in the winter which is perhaps 3 X worse than the values in the tables.  One can probably use these tables and get a good idea of the effect of preconditioning and shutting off the HVAC when driving for range and FE.  One likely needs to use a blend of the driving cycle(s) that would be similar to their driving cycle and also estimate the preconditioning load and time and the steady state load and time to get an average load. 

 

Anything that can be done to reduce vehicle electric load when driving  can have range and FE benefits whether the car is an ICE vehicle, HEV, PHEV, or EV. ;)  But gas stations are everywhere not EV charging stations.  For preconditioning of a PHEV or EV to be an economic benefit, one has to drive the car beyond the EV range but for preconditioning.  Also, the preconditioning doesn't help with FE if one drives in EV until the next charge - use kWh to precondition or use kWh for initial conditioning while driving and replace on next charge.  It appears that one could "over precondition" (maintaining cabin temperature until driven using more kWh than necessary) and the preconditioning could hurt FE (albeit likely rather small). 

 

I closely monitored my climate usage this past summer to estimate how much preconditioning might help range (heating is not an issue in the Phoenix area) with estimated range of the FFE when I was contemplating its purchase.  Range is virtually "everything" to an EV and the primary reason I have yet to purchase a PHEV or EV .   Preconditioning for AC doesn't do enough to extend the range of the Energi (or FFE)  for me assuming one is going to use AC and not shut off the HVAC system when driving.  A quick calculation shows the savings of using a 0.25 kWh from gas instead of electricity to precondition in the summer is minimal (saving about 1 mile in 40 miles) or less than $0.05 per precondition event:  ($2.50 / gallon) * 1 mile / (40 mpg) - ($0.085 / kWh * 0.25 k Wh).  If one could precondition multiple times say 300 times with 20+ mile trips (just outside the Energi range between preconditioning) during the cooling season, that's maybe a savings of $30 a year for me.  If one preconditions and doesn't drive outside the Energi EV range, there is no economic benefit nor range benefit from preconditioning (heating or cooling). 

 

Impact of AC on Range.pdf

Edited December 10, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[stevedebi]

Plus 3,

I don't precondition because I'm on 120v and it doesn't work well. But I do trust several Energi folks who have posted that it does indeed increase the range in EV.

 

I think what you meant was that if you are driving within the normal EV range (that you would have gotten without preconditioning), then having the preconditioning to add extra range is of no benefit - because it will not be used. But it got a bit convoluted in the middle there!

 

But some folks DO need that range - those that are juicing up at work for example.

 

The economics would depend on the cost of energy in your locality. I've not done the calculations because I don't have the L2 charger anyway.

Edited December 11, 2014 by stevedebi

[plus 3 golfer]

Plus 3,

I don't precondition because I'm on 120v and it doesn't work well. But I do trust several Energi folks who have posted that it does indeed increase the range in EV.

 

I think what you meant was that if you are driving within the normal EV range (that you would have gotten without preconditioning), then having the preconditioning to add extra range is of no benefit - because it will not be used. But it got a bit convoluted in the middle there!

 

But some folks DO need that range - those that are juicing up at work for example.

 

The economics would depend on the cost of energy in your locality. I've not done the calculations because I don't have the L2 charger anyway.

Yes that Is what I meant. If you aren't going to need the extra range then why precondition in the FFE. In the Energi, range is not an issue. It's economics. The value of the extra range does depend on local prices but it's rather small for precooling an Energi is the point provided the EV range is fully used.

[PJFW8]

By agreement with my landlord I charge free in my assigned garage space.  In my unique circumstance preconditioning is the only way to go. By the way, with low rates in this area the landlord's cost is under $8 month for my power.

[HannahWCU]

I agree with Plus3 with the fact that this discuss made a right turn on preconditioning.  But I like the discussion as I have not had my FFE during the summer.  As for why I precondition, for me it is because I don't currently have a level 2 charger.  If I didn't precondition in the morning before I left for work, I would would use significantly more Kw getting to work. If I use too much energy I might not be able to get a full charge at home.  I run the risk of getting to a point where I can't ever get a full charge (with my Level 1 charger)

 

Currently when I precondition, I do not use (or use minimally) the heat in the car for my commute (mornings have been in the upper 20's lately).  When I get to work I have used about 7.1-7.4 KW of energy.  I can charge at work with a level 1 (120V).  The FFE will finish charging in about 7 hours.  If I run the heat on the way to work, I will not be able to get a full charge before leaving for home.  If it was really cold and I ran the heat on the way home, I could get home and not be able to get a full charge overnight.

 

Once I get more used to my car and I get  Level 2 charge (next week, hopefully) This all becomes moot for me.  Because no matter how much energy I use during the day I know I will be able to get a full charge at night.

 

So for me, preconditioning is about range anxiety.  I want a "full tank" before I leave on every trip.

 

As for air conditioning.  I am guessing I'm going to be like Kelleytoons and not precondition in the summer.  I like running with the windows down most of the time anyway.

[HannahWCU]

I thought I might add an update with some usage numbers.  In the last month I have traveled about 1800 miles and used (according to my home charger) 297 kWh of electricity. At $0.112 per kWh, that works out to $33.264 to travel 1800 miles or approximately $0.0185 per mile.  Or, to put in another form, at $2/gallon that is about 108 MPGe.

 

That is my cost, keep in mind I also charge at work (which I don't pay for).  So 630 miles of the approximately 1800 miles last month was charged at work.  So taking those miles out we now have; 1170 miles on 297 kWh. Which works out to $0.0284 per mile or about 70 MPGe (@$2/gallon). 

 

That isn't quite the 105 MPGe it is rated for, BUT I pre-condition the car every morning to 85F.  That uses about 2.5 kWh each morning.  That reduces my effective MPGe, but sure is nice!

 

Even at $0.0284 per mile that is less than half the $0.07/mile that my CMax has cost me over its 50K+ miles and almost half what the Cmax has cost me in the last 3 months ($0.051/mile).

 

So even at $2/gallon my FFE is still more efficient than a Hybrid or pure ICE vehicle. :wub2:

[SnowStorm]

Thanks for the update!  Your Watt-Hours/Mile of 254 (297,000/1170) seems quite good, especially with the pre-conditioning.  But I don't think 70 MPGe is right.  Shouldn't it be (1170 miles / 297 kWh) * (33.7 kWh/gal) or 133?  Very good indeed.  Just makes me want a pure electric even more!

[fotomoto]

Thanks for the update!  Your Watt-Hours/Mile of 254 (297,000/1170) seems quite good, especially with the pre-conditioning.  But I don't think 70 MPGe is right.  Shouldn't it be (1170 miles / 297 kWh) * (33.7 kWh/gal) or 133?  Very good indeed.  Just makes me want a pure electric even more!

 

Yeah, rounding off Hannah's basic figures to 1200 miles/300kWh=4 miles per kWh which is considered a commendable EV economy number. My Energi displays MPGe and I typically get 130-140 MPGe readouts alongside my 4 miles per kWh rating on my daily commute so I agree with Snow's math.

 

Lately I've been pre-conditioning to 85f and WOW what decadence!  My kids love it and will rush out to the car and bask in the warmth (and text....) while I finish up my morning routine (you know walking around the house turning off all the lights, tv's, computers, etc that they said they turned off).  :lol:

[HannahWCU]

Thanks for the update!  Your Watt-Hours/Mile of 254 (297,000/1170) seems quite good, especially with the pre-conditioning.  But I don't think 70 MPGe is right.  Shouldn't it be (1170 miles / 297 kWh) * (33.7 kWh/gal) or 133?  Very good indeed.  Just makes me want a pure electric even more!

 

 Yes, your probably right.  I was calculating MPGe based on cost.  How many miles can I drive on the cost of 1 gallon of gas.  i.e. My cost is $0.0284 per mile, If I drive 70 miles my cost is $2, gas is $2 so therefore I get 70 MPGe.  But you are correct in your calculations.

 

My lifetime average is 275 kWh/mile.  So i am getting about 3.6 miles per kWh lifetime. 

 

I should note that while I wrote down my kWh of usage for the month, I lost the mileage number so it is an estimate.  It should be close but not perfect.  I will hopefully have a more accurate number for February.

[fotomoto]

Here's a list of the top green cars. http://www.greenercars.org/greenest-meanest/greenest

 

I share this because the top 3 contenders, which are EV's, along with the FFE (#11) have their respective fuel economy listed in miles per kWh.   They are in the 3.xx range similar to the OP's results.  So, again congrats on your very efficient driving.   :shift:

Edited February 7, 2015 by fotomoto

[HannahWCU]

Another update ...

 

I just received my electric bill for January.  I went online to Duke Energy to compare this years bill with last years.  No surprise it was up a little over 300 kWh over last year (1287 kWh for 2015 vs 967 kWh for 2014).  According to Duke, weather was not a factor, so that increase is mostly due to the FFE charging.  The increase in cost to my bill is inline with what I estimated when I bought the car in November.  

 

But looking at the comparison between 2014 and 2015 got me thinking. My car increased my electrical consumption by about 1/3.  That is a pretty big number.  I had already looking into whether Duke Energy has a special rate for EV owners (which they don't), but they do have a time of use rate schedule.  So I contacted Duke yesterday to switch my rate over.  This was not an easy task.  I had to speak with 4 different people before I got someone who could help me with that.  

 

The kicker with the time of use schedule is there is a "On-Peak Demand Charge per month, per kW". This charge is calculated as:

 

"On-Peak Demand for billing purposes each month shall be the maximum integrated thirty-minute demand measured for the On-Peak period during the month for which the bill is rendered."  

 

And the rate for those kW is $3.88/kW in the winter and $7.77/kW in the summer (yes those are DOLLARS per kW not cents!  The offset is the normal kWh charge is between $0.024 (peak) and $0.036 (off-peak) less than I am currently paying ($0.096/kWh + tax). And since the peak times are relatively small (7am-noon in the winter and 1pm to 7pm in the summer) most of my electricity usage should be off-peak (I should note that I have natural gas for heating and hot water).  So will the new rate lower my electricity cost?  Stay tuned to find out.

Edited February 10, 2015 by HannahWCU

[hybridbear]

 So will the new rate lower my electricity cost?  Stay tuned to find out.

Did you get your L2 EVSE installed? That will have a big impact since you're able to draw a lot more kWh in less time.

 

Have you configured Value Charging in MyFord Mobile? It works great for TOU pricing.

[Adrian_L]

Watching TV last night I was bombarded three times with the new Kia Soul EV commercial (engineer hamsters hit a red button and leather-clad bombshell female hamster steps out of car)   Makes me wonder (again) why Ford are so reluctant to promote the C-max.  Or the Focus Electric for that matter.

 

www.Kia.ca/soulev for those who are interested.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Adrian_L

[HannahWCU]

Did you get your L2 EVSE installed? That will have a big impact since you're able to draw a lot more kWh in less time.

 

Have you configured Value Charging in MyFord Mobile? It works great for TOU pricing.

Yes I have my L2 charger installed. That is how I know how many kWh I charged with last month. And I also use value charging. It is set to start at 1am (it usually completes about 3am). I leave for work about 6:15, so I have a GO Time set to pre-heat the cabin to 85°F. LOVE the preconditioning!!!