SPL Tech Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 The other day I had the ignition on my car on, but in the standby mode. I was programing my GPS and then I got a call and forgot to turn the car to the ready mode. I noticed that the HV indicator dropped nearly to zero, then I turned the car to the ready mode and ICE started immediately to recharge the HV. So that got me to thinking, if someone left the car in the standby mode, would it automatically turn off or automatically enter ready mode before the HV depleted so much that it could not start the ICE? This seams like a rather important feature as I am sure there are plenty of people out there (most actually) that do not understand how the hybrid works and what would happen if the HV discharged completely, and leaving cars in the standby mode (or "ACC" as it's more accurately called) is rather common for people who want to listen to the radio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hybridbear Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 Do you have a ScanGauge or an Android device with Torque Pro to test this? I don't know if anyone has yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedebi Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 The other day I had the ignition on my car on, but in the standby mode. I was programing my GPS and then I got a call and forgot to turn the car to the ready mode. I noticed that the HV indicator dropped nearly to zero, then I turned the car to the ready mode and ICE started immediately to recharge the HV. So that got me to thinking, if someone left the car in the standby mode, would it automatically turn off or automatically enter ready mode before the HV depleted so much that it could not start the ICE? This seams like a rather important feature as I am sure there are plenty of people out there (most actually) that do not understand how the hybrid works and what would happen if the HV discharged completely, and leaving cars in the standby mode (or "ACC" as it's more accurately called) is rather common for people who want to listen to the radio.The accessory mode, where the engine is not enabled? I have the SEL (Energi), with the keyless start, so mine is a bit different. I did not realize the HV dropped with accessory position on the key. It should be the 12V battery supplying the power. That sounds unusual, although the HV is used to recharge the 12v. Maybe the engine came on to charge the 12v? In any case, there should be circuits protecting the HVB. I would expect the 12v to die if you left it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raadsel Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 The accessory mode, where the engine is not enabled? I have the SEL (Energi), with the keyless start, so mine is a bit different. I did not realize the HV dropped with accessory position on the key. It should be the 12V battery supplying the power. That sounds unusual, although the HV is used to recharge the 12v. Maybe the engine came on to charge the 12v? In any case, there should be circuits protecting the HVB. I would expect the 12v to die if you left it on. If I'm reading the OP correctly, he has the SEL so his system should be fairly similar to yours -- other than having the plug-in battery. Further, it appears the SE version, with the physical key, does still has an "accessory mode" (key position I). As you note, the keyless start versions do not have an "accessory mode", rather (if you do not press on the brake while pushing the start button) it goes into "On mode." In "On mode", it appears that all the circuits are turned on as if the car was started, other than it will not start either the electric motor or the ICE. Because all the electric circuits are on (from what the manual states), it seems the hybrid battery is also connected (it is electronically disconnected when the car is turned off). As such, it appears that even though the Nav system uses the 12V battery to power it, with the car being "on" the hybrid battery was recharging the 12V battery as it drained, causing the hybrid battery to get low on power. Because the car is not in "Ready to Drive mode", I doubt the ICE would turn on to recharge the battery. Instead, my guess is that, if the hybrid battery charge became low enough, it would trigger a low charge alarm -- just as if you were driving and the hybrid battery lost its charge. I'm guessing that, as the hybrid battery level dropped, it would turn the car off -- to protect the hybrid battery and maintain a minimum level of charge (enough to start the ICE). It might be good to get this verified by our friendly Ford rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedebi Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 If I'm reading the OP correctly, he has the SEL so his system should be fairly similar to yours -- other than having the plug-in battery. Further, it appears the SE version, with the physical key, does still has an "accessory mode" (key position I). As you note, the keyless start versions do not have an "accessory mode", rather (if you do not press on the brake while pushing the start button) it goes into "On mode." In "On mode", it appears that all the circuits are turned on as if the car was started, other than it will not start either the electric motor or the ICE. Because all the electric circuits are on (from what the manual states), it seems the hybrid battery is also connected (it is electronically disconnected when the car is turned off). As such, it appears that even though the Nav system uses the 12V battery to power it, with the car being "on" the hybrid battery was recharging the 12V battery as it drained, causing the hybrid battery to get low on power. Because the car is not in "Ready to Drive mode", I doubt the ICE would turn on to recharge the battery. Instead, my guess is that, if the hybrid battery charge became low enough, it would trigger a low charge alarm -- just as if you were driving and the hybrid battery lost its charge. I'm guessing that, as the hybrid battery level dropped, it would turn the car off -- to protect the hybrid battery and maintain a minimum level of charge (enough to start the ICE). It might be good to get this verified by our friendly Ford rep.Yes, verification would be good. His profile said "SL" for the model number, I suppose that was meant to be SEL. Makes more sense. Just a FWIW, if the HVB stops working, it doesn't post an error. The car won't work at all. Is there some alert for the Hybrid that I'm not aware of? Having a "low" battery is a normal part of hybrid driving - the ICE kicks in to recharge it, between the programmed SOC levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian_L Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) From my interpretation of it: Standby mode indicates power on but green "ready to go" symbol off. Accessory mode would be the same. Ready mode is ready to drive with the green symbol lit. Isn't key position 1 the same as standby/acc mode in models without a key (power on the dash but no green symbol). As far as I know, the HV battery shouldn't be engaged with the radio on in standby mode. If it is engaged it should take a heck of a long time to drain from a 12 volt stereo. While sitting in a parking lot with the stereo on (standby/acc mode), my battery management system turned everything off after about 20 minutes. Edited March 24, 2015 by Adrian_L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raadsel Posted March 24, 2015 Report Share Posted March 24, 2015 Yes, verification would be good. His profile said "SL" for the model number, I suppose that was meant to be SEL. Makes more sense. Just a FWIW, if the HVB stops working, it doesn't post an error. The car won't work at all. Is there some alert for the Hybrid that I'm not aware of? Having a "low" battery is a normal part of hybrid driving - the ICE kicks in to recharge it, between the programmed SOC levels. I guessing that when you are talking about the HVB, you are talking about the plug-in battery -- that the car stops working at all unless it switches to hybrid mode. Although I may misunderstand, it seems like the Energi acts as if it has two high voltage batteries -- the plug in battery and the hybrid battery. From what I can tell, the hybrid battery cannot be charged by the plug, nor can the plug-in battery be charged by the hybrid system. For discharge, the plug-in battery is only used when in "EV mode", and the hybrid battery is only used when in "Hybrid mode". As for the hybrid battery, while it is meant to charge and discharge, it avoids a full discharge, both because it is bad for battery longevity but also because, as was previously pointed out, the ICE can't be started if the hybrid battery does not have enough power. The "starter" on the hybrid is an electric motor/generator that is powered by the hybrid battery -- the 12V battery cannot start the ICE. There are warnings, such as "Check Battery Charge", that are programmed in when the battery gets too low. Beyond that, there is a "Stop Safely Now" warning, that "Displays when the stop safety hazard warning lamp is illuminated. This indicates an electrical component fault/failure that will cause the vehicle to shut down or enter into limited operating mode." I believe in the above case, you'd get the "Check Battery Charge" light first, but only when the battery charge is very low, lower than it would be allowed to go in normal driving. If the charge continued to drop, that is when the "Stop Safely Now" alarm would come on, and shut off the car. From my interpretation of it: Standby mode indicates power on but green "ready to go" symbol off. Accessory mode would be the same. Ready mode is ready to drive with the green symbol lit. Isn't key position 1 the same as standby/acc mode in models without a key (power on the dash but no green symbol). As far as I know, the HV battery shouldn't be engaged with the radio on in standby mode. If it is engaged it should take a heck of a long time to drain from a 12 volt stereo. While sitting in a parking lot with the stereo on (standby/acc mode), my battery management system turned everything off after about 20 minutes. From what the manual shows, it shows models with a key having three positions, "I" is the accessory mode, "II" is On mode, and "III" is start. From the descriptions, accessory "Allows the electrical accessories, such as the radio, to operate while the engine is not running." II seems to correlate with what you call "Standby", "All electrical circuits are operational and the warning lamps and indicators illuminate." The manual uses this same description for "On mode" with keyless start (pushing the state button without depressing the brake) -- so it is different from accessory mode with a key. III starts the car -- similar to pushing the button with the brake pedal depressed with a keyless start. From what I can tell, the closest the keyless start versions have to accessory is the mode just after you have turned the car off, where the radio and other electronics continue to operate until you open the door. As for discharging the hybrid battery while in "On mode" (what you are calling standby), it does seem like it should take quite a while; though there are mitigating factors. First, the hybrid battery may start with a low charge, particularly if EV+ mode (the hybrid version of EV+) is turned on and the battery discharged during the last few miles, the last time it was driven. Next, it is not just the radio that is being powered, but all the electronics in the car (various computers, climate control, etc). This is a much greater power draw than accessory mode would be. It is also unclear how long the OP left the car on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPL Tech Posted March 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) I have the SEL hybrid, non-plugin version. The car has three modes:1. Off2. Ignition3. Ready There is no ACC like there is on the SE models. When the car is in the ignition mode, the car cannot drive but the DC to DC converter is active and the HV battery is being used. The battery drains fast as the ignition mode turns on every computer in the vehicle as well as the DRL which draws about 400W constantly. When the car is put in the ready mode, the 12v voltage jumps a tad (from about 14.2 to 14.8) and the power consumption jumps to about 450W. So yes, the HV can be depleted when the car is in the ignition mode and it wouldn’t take that long. If the battery indicator is at halfway, it could fall off the screen all together after about 20 min in ignition. The question is would the car allow it to happen? Edited March 25, 2015 by SPL Tech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raadsel Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 I have the SEL hybrid, non-plugin version. The car has three modes: 1. Off2. Ignition3. Ready There is no ACC like there is on the SE models. When the car is in the ignition mode, the car cannot drive but the DC to DC converter is active and the HV battery is being used. The battery drains fast as the ignition mode turns on every computer in the vehicle as well as the DRL which draws about 400W constantly. When the car is put in the ready mode, the 12v voltage jumps a tad (from about 14.2 to 14.8) and the power consumption jumps to about 450W. So yes, the HV can be depleted when the car is in the ignition mode and it wouldn’t take that long. If the battery indicator is at halfway, it could fall off the screen all together after about 20 min in ignition. The question is would the car allow it to happen? As I stated above, I don't believe the car will allow the HV battery to completely deplete. Instead, when the charge drops below "normal" levels, my guess is somewhere around what the displays show as 1 or 0% charge, the "Check Battery Charge" warning will display. I then expect the car will be shut off if the charge drops down to a minimum level, likely around the maximum that might be needed to start the ICE. One thing I'd be interested in knowing is if the display shows the actual charge level. I suspect that it is only shows from about 10%-90%, that the top and bottom 10% is "reserved", to not be used (and maybe only 20-80%). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPL Tech Posted March 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 As I stated above, I don't believe the car will allow the HV battery to completely deplete. Instead, when the charge drops below "normal" levels, my guess is somewhere around what the displays show as 1 or 0% charge, the "Check Battery Charge" warning will display. I then expect the car will be shut off if the charge drops down to a minimum level, likely around the maximum that might be needed to start the ICE. One thing I'd be interested in knowing is if the display shows the actual charge level. I suspect that it is only shows from about 10%-90%, that the top and bottom 10% is "reserved", to not be used (and maybe only 20-80%). It does not display the actual level. I would have to look in FORscan to see the exact values, but 0% on the indicator is around 20% SOC and 100% on the indicator is about 60% SOC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raadsel Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 It does not display the actual level. I would have to look in FORscan to see the exact values, but 0% on the indicator is around 20% SOC and 100% on the indicator is about 60% SOC. The 20% doesn't surprise me but the 60% seems a bit low. My guess is the charge warning comes on at about 20% charge (0% shown) and the car shuts down around 10-15% charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 (edited) ... One thing I'd be interested in knowing is if the display shows the actual charge level. I suspect that it is only shows from about 10%-90%, that the top and bottom 10% is "reserved", to not be used (and maybe only 20-80%). Data below is from hannahWCU monitoring. SoC is data of the displayed HVB battery symbol state of charge, SOC is actual HVB state of charge. 1% change of SoC = 0.38 change of SOC When SoC reads 100 - SOC reads 69.7When SoC reads 80 - SOC reads 62.1When SoC reads 70 - SOC reads 58.0When SoC reads 50 - SOC reads 50.4When SoC reads 30 - SOC reads 42.7 I've recorded and monitored data many times and have seen similar numbers as above. For sake of discussion we can assume the SOC of the HVB varies between about 30% - 70%. The minimum SOC I've seen is in the mid to upper 30% (don't recall exact number but around 35+%). In normal driving I'll see a SOC varying between about 40% - 55% +- a few % points. One can easily fill the HVB via regenerative braking down a moderate grade to near the 70% level (battery symbol filled including the tip). At that level ICE begins spinning and filling the HVB stops (normal engine braking instead of regenerative braking). I have also tried driving in EV+ mode to deplete the HVB (higher threshold level before ICE kicks in) by driving around the block and have a difficult time getting the SOC anywhere near 30% as the threshold level begins dropping significantly once under 40% SOC. Edited March 25, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 I have seen as low as 33% with ScanGaugeII in EV+. I left my ACC mode on once and HVB only goes down so far and quits charging 12V battery. I used a batt. charger for 15min. and left it connected to start the ICE. No big deal. Didn't have a jumper battery ready at the time. ;)It seems I do most of my driving between 38%-45% SOC, but will hit over 50% on significant down hills stretches. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 ...but the 60% seems a bit low. ...Not once you understand that Li-ion battery life has a strong dependency on maximum charge level and depth of discharge, with an interaction during storage between SOC and battery temperature. In all cases, 100% charging will kill the battery, and storing it charged and hot kills it faster. Ford did their homework... use EV+ to discharge your battery before you park, whenever possible.Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedebi Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 I guessing that when you are talking about the HVB, you are talking about the plug-in battery -- that the car stops working at all unless it switches to hybrid mode. Although I may misunderstand, it seems like the Energi acts as if it has two high voltage batteries -- the plug in battery and the hybrid battery. From what I can tell, the hybrid battery cannot be charged by the plug, nor can the plug-in battery be charged by the hybrid system. For discharge, the plug-in battery is only used when in "EV mode", and the hybrid battery is only used when in "Hybrid mode". As for the hybrid battery, while it is meant to charge and discharge, it avoids a full discharge, both because it is bad for battery longevity but also because, as was previously pointed out, the ICE can't be started if the hybrid battery does not have enough power. The "starter" on the hybrid is an electric motor/generator that is powered by the hybrid battery -- the 12V battery cannot start the ICE. There are warnings, such as "Check Battery Charge", that are programmed in when the battery gets too low. Beyond that, there is a "Stop Safely Now" warning, that "Displays when the stop safety hazard warning lamp is illuminated. This indicates an electrical component fault/failure that will cause the vehicle to shut down or enter into limited operating mode." I believe in the above case, you'd get the "Check Battery Charge" light first, but only when the battery charge is very low, lower than it would be allowed to go in normal driving. If the charge continued to drop, that is when the "Stop Safely Now" alarm would come on, and shut off the car. From what the manual shows, it shows models with a key having three positions, "I" is the accessory mode, "II" is On mode, and "III" is start. From the descriptions, accessory "Allows the electrical accessories, such as the radio, to operate while the engine is not running." II seems to correlate with what you call "Standby", "All electrical circuits are operational and the warning lamps and indicators illuminate." The manual uses this same description for "On mode" with keyless start (pushing the state button without depressing the brake) -- so it is different from accessory mode with a key. III starts the car -- similar to pushing the button with the brake pedal depressed with a keyless start. From what I can tell, the closest the keyless start versions have to accessory is the mode just after you have turned the car off, where the radio and other electronics continue to operate until you open the door. As for discharging the hybrid battery while in "On mode" (what you are calling standby), it does seem like it should take quite a while; though there are mitigating factors. First, the hybrid battery may start with a low charge, particularly if EV+ mode (the hybrid version of EV+) is turned on and the battery discharged during the last few miles, the last time it was driven. Next, it is not just the radio that is being powered, but all the electronics in the car (various computers, climate control, etc). This is a much greater power draw than accessory mode would be. It is also unclear how long the OP left the car on.I missed the "Check Battery Charge" in the owners manual when I read it. It is on page 99 for the 2014 version. I've certainly never seen it, although I've run my bettery down to very low when in EV+. There is only one battery in the Energi. They just reserve a section of it for use when EV Now is no longer possible. It is a bit more complicated that that, but only one battery... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedebi Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 Data below is from hannahWCU monitoring. SoC is data of the displayed HVB battery symbol state of charge, SOC is actual HVB state of charge. 1% change of SoC = 0.38 change of SOC When SoC reads 100 - SOC reads 69.7When SoC reads 80 - SOC reads 62.1When SoC reads 70 - SOC reads 58.0When SoC reads 50 - SOC reads 50.4When SoC reads 30 - SOC reads 42.7 I've recorded and monitored data many times and have seen similar numbers as above. For sake of discussion we can assume the SOC of the HVB varies between about 30% - 70%. The minimum SOC I've seen is in the mid to upper 30% (don't recall exact number but around 35+%). In normal driving I'll see a SOC varying between about 40% - 55% +- a few % points. One can easily fill the HVB via regenerative braking down a moderate grade to near the 70% level (battery symbol filled including the tip). At that level ICE begins spinning and filling the HVB stops (normal engine braking instead of regenerative braking). I have also tried driving in EV+ mode to deplete the HVB (higher threshold level before ICE kicks in) by driving around the block and have a difficult time getting the SOC anywhere near 30% as the threshold level begins dropping significantly once under 40% SOC. That is very similar to the reported SOC on my 2008 FEH. It goes a bit lower in the C-Max. Ford has been doing hybrids for 10 years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raadsel Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 I missed the "Check Battery Charge" in the owners manual when I read it. It is on page 99 for the 2014 version. I've certainly never seen it, although I've run my bettery down to very low when in EV+. There is only one battery in the Energi. They just reserve a section of it for use when EV Now is no longer possible. It is a bit more complicated that that, but only one battery... It is actually a lot more complicated than that, as there are several battery cells in both the hybrid and the Energi, which are connected together to create a large battery. If the source I read is correct, there are 76 separate battery cells in the hybrid and 84 in the Energi; of course, the individual cells in the Energi are much larger than those in the hybrid. So, yes, it is quite complicated the way they do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 One thing I'd be interested in knowing is if the display shows the actual charge level. I suspect that it is only shows from about 10%-90%, that the top and bottom 10% is "reserved", to not be used (and maybe only 20-80%). From OBDII/Forscan data (see this post) the relationship is: Actual SOC = 0.38545*(Displayed SOC) + 26.4%so bottom of display should be 26.4% and top is 65%. However, I have observed that the actual SOC goes on up to 70% and stops there. I have no idea if the actual SOC will go below 26.4% but it certainly might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 From OBDII/Forscan data (see this post) the relationship is: Actual SOC = 0.38545*(Displayed SOC) + 26.4%so bottom of display should be 26.4% and top is 65%. However, I have observed that the actual SOC goes on up to 70% and stops there. I have no idea if the actual SOC will go below 26.4% but it certainly might.I will continue to monitor SOC to see how low it will go and if I get lucky how high. To me it looks like 30% is the lowest I can get in EV+. :) Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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