Ford to idle 700 workers where the C-Max is made.

[scottwood2]

Cheap gas prices make it hard to sell high FE cars.  GM is in the news about this too.  

 

 

http://patch.com/michigan/dearborn/ford-idle-700-workers-0?utm_source=alert-breakingnews&utm_medium=email&utm_term=jobs&utm_campaign=alert

[SnowStorm]

A real pity because the C-Max's "never-shift" drive train is so much nicer than conventional automatics (that just keep adding more and more gears to shift through)!  Forget the great mileage for a bit, I'd buy this car just to get that "no-shift" driving experience.  Most people who've never had a hybrid probably think its just about saving gas and hugging trees!  I also love sitting in traffic (did I really say that!) with the engine off and making short trips without it even starting.  I never thought this car would go 25,000+ out of 62,000+ miles with the ICE off!  It flips me out every time I think about it.  And brakes getting only 6% of normal wear.  And how the ICE is pampered so after a cold start (by using more battery).

 

If folks were more knowledgeable about all the advantages, they would buy more hybrids!  Even with cheap gas.

[Marc Smith]

Cheap gas won't be around for ever.    On the plus side it means EV's and hybrids will come down in price.  I'll be in the market for a third car by the end of the year.  Maybe I'll be able to get an EV on the cheap for my daughter...

[stevedebi]

Cheap gas won't be around for ever.    On the plus side it means EV's and hybrids will come down in price.  I'll be in the market for a third car by the end of the year.  Maybe I'll be able to get an EV on the cheap for my daughter...

If you mean a new one, "cheap" would be maybe 28K. The used ones are going very cheap from what I've read. But a used electric does have a battery that holds less charge.

[mlsstl]

If you mean a new one, "cheap" would be maybe 28K. The used ones are going very cheap from what I've read. But a used electric does have a battery that holds less charge.

New 2015 C-Max SEs are going for about $22K in our area.

 

As for the EVs, I think you are usually getting into year 4 or 5 before you start noticing any decrease in the battery. What I've read is that at the end of 8 years (a typically battery warranty period) that you should still be  at 70% or more of the original capacity. 

[stevedebi]

New 2015 C-Max SEs are going for about $22K in our area.

 

As for the EVs, I think you are usually getting into year 4 or 5 before you start noticing any decrease in the battery. What I've read is that at the end of 8 years (a typically battery warranty period) that you should still be  at 70% or more of the original capacity. 

I was thinking of the EVs especially when I wrote 28K.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with the EV battery after a couple of years, it's just that the public perception is that a used EV is not as good. Too much experience with LiIon laptop batteries, I suppose.

[Marc Smith]

Let me rephrase. My daughter will maybe get wife's 2008 saturnvue green line. And wifey may get a new car where I might push hard for a plug in....

 

The hov exemption for hybrids on lanes that my wife would travel ends soon. So while we won't need a hybrid something that gets decent mileage is a good call. Even if it's not a hybrid... I know the wife will push to keep status quo and let daughter use her car when needed and not buy another car... We'll see how strong my resolve is...

[stevedebi]

Let me rephrase. My daughter will maybe get wife's 2008 saturnvue green line. And wifey may get a new car where I might push hard for a plug in....

 

The hov exemption for hybrids on lanes that my wife would travel ends soon. So while we won't need a hybrid something that gets decent mileage is a good call. Even if it's not a hybrid... I know the wife will push to keep status quo and let daughter use her car when needed and not buy another car... We'll see how strong my resolve is...

The Energi model qualifies for the carpool lane until 2019. Not sure how many green sitckers are left though. But if you bought a used one it might already have the sticker.

 

EDIT: Sorry, I just saw that you are Northeast. The carpool sticker I was mentioning is here in CA. Might be worth checking out though.

Edited April 24, 2015 by stevedebi

[Marc Smith]

All of the lanes she would travel are hov/hot lanes. Or will soon become. In va when you got a special clean fuel plate you were hov exempt. Ie you could drive in th hov lanes with a single passenger. But the last few roads are scheduled to switch over to the hov/hot so the clean fuel tag exemption will end.

 

it was a good run while it lasted. And since she started her own consulting gig. She's not traveling into dc as much. So it's not a big deal any more..

[SPL Tech]

Cheap gas prices make it hard to sell high FE cars.  GM is in the news about this too.  

 

 

http://patch.com/michigan/dearborn/ford-idle-700-workers-0?utm_source=alert-breakingnews&utm_medium=email&utm_term=jobs&utm_campaign=alert

Gas is cheap? news to me. Still upwards of $3 - $3.50 a gal on many west cost areas.

Edited April 26, 2015 by SPL Tech

[Kelleytoons]

Gas is cheap? news to me. Still upwards of $3 - $3.50 a gal on many west cost areas.

West cost indeed.  (LOL).

 

Gas is around $2.50 here.  Still, if it stays below $4 I'll be happy (I fill up about once a month and with the 20% off gas cards I've bought from Publix I have enough gas now to last until this time next year).

Edited April 26, 2015 by Kelleytoons

[timwil56]

Regardless of the price of gas, it's still a good financial (and environmental) decision to own a Hybrid or PHEV. Gas may be around $2.50 for most folks (sorry West coast), but that's still money shelled out every time you go to the gas station. A fellow I work with spends over $200 a month on gas to drive 100 miles just to and from work in a F-150. Depending on how far your commute is and how many kid, errand or fun miles you drive, it's money out. In the summer with my Energi, I keep the tank between 1/4 and 1/2 and I go to the gas station every month and a half or so, that gives me more cash to spend on the things I want to buy, not need to buy.

[raadsel]

Regardless of the price of gas, it's still a good financial (and environmental) decision to own a Hybrid or PHEV. Gas may be around $2.50 for most folks (sorry West coast), but that's still money shelled out every time you go to the gas station. A fellow I work with spends over $200 a month on gas to drive 100 miles just to and from work in a F-150. Depending on how far your commute is and how many kid, errand or fun miles you drive, it's money out. In the summer with my Energi, I keep the tank between 1/4 and 1/2 and I go to the gas station every month and a half or so, that gives me more cash to spend on the things I want to buy, not need to buy.

 

While I agree with you, the fact is that there are large numbers of Americans that love big gas guzzling cars and trucks; it is basically a part of the culture. While I love pulling up to a stop light and having no engine noise, there are Americans who absolutely hate it. Tie that in with a culture where "time is money", so every second they believe they are saving from stoplight to stoplight makes them feel like the are driving faster, despite the fact that are saving little to no extra time compared to me, who is driving moderately and saving gas.

 

Because of this, when gas prices are low, people go out and buy the biggest cars/trucks/CUVs with the biggest engines they can afford. They tend to forget that gas prices are going to go back up and, in a year or so, they are going to be sweating to keep inside their budget because they can't afford to fill their big car with gas. 

[Bugblndr]

While I agree with you, the fact is that there are large numbers of Americans that love big gas guzzling cars and trucks; it is basically a part of the culture. While I love pulling up to a stop light and having no engine noise, there are Americans who absolutely hate it. Tie that in with a culture where "time is money", so every second they believe they are saving from stoplight to stoplight makes them feel like the are driving faster, despite the fact that are saving little to no extra time compared to me, who is driving moderately and saving gas.

 

 

 

I'm not American but I'm in both camps on this one.  I'll put about 21,000 miles a year on my C-Max.  I'll also put about 4-5,000 miles a year on my 2000 Pontiac Trans Am which has a done up 5.7L V8, aftermarket heads, headers, and gets about 17 MPG overall.  I like accelerating briskly in that car and money spent on fuel comes out of my entertainment budget instead of the transportation budget.   ;)

 

When I leased a Toyota Highlander Hybrid for 4 years, it made financial sense for me to get the hybrid versus the pure ICE model.  At my relatively high mileage and the cost of fuel here ($5.20 per gallon) at the time, the fuel savings were greater than the hybrid cost over 4 years.  I forget the numbers I had calculated, but if I did about 16,000 miles a year, I would've been better off with the ICE Highlander. Based on what happened with gas prices, it probably worked out closer to about even either way in retrospect.

 

You can't get a C-Max equivalent car without a hybrid powertrain so there was no math to be done when I bought this car.  For me, I wanted a fuel efficient vehicle with "all the toys", that could had the cargo capacity to haul all the stuff I typically need to haul.   Gas won't be "cheap" forever, it's gone up 75 cents a gallon here since I ordered my car in January.

[timwil56]

I think most folks still buy large SUV's because of the safety factor and sporty high performance high HP cars for the fun factor. If you can spend 40-60K on a full size SUV or Shelby GT, you can afford the fuel at any price. What I was saying is, for those of us in the middle, who can afford a nice vehicle (or at least get a loan for one), gas is just one more budget item and if that cost can be reduced, it gives us (me) more money to spend on other things. I'm sure as soon as someone farts in the Middle East, or a pipeline here bursts, gas prices will go up again. Of course, we're all ready for any increase when it comes. I still don't understand how gas prices can rise on weekends when markets are closed, anyone able to explain that??

[Marc Smith]

Regardless of the price of gas, it's still a good financial (and environmental) decision to own a Hybrid or PHEV. Gas may be around $2.50 for most folks (sorry West coast), but that's still money shelled out every time you go to the gas station. A fellow I work with spends over $200 a month on gas to drive 100 miles just to and from work in a F-150. Depending on how far your commute is and how many kid, errand or fun miles you drive, it's money out. In the summer with my Energi, I keep the tank between 1/4 and 1/2 and I go to the gas station every month and a half or so, that gives me more cash to spend on the things I want to buy, not need to buy.

Tim,  the "problem"  right now with hybrids and plug-ins  is that  you are buying the fuel, in a sense.  you are paying up front for the fuel efficient technology, when compared against a similar ICE...

 

take a look at the fusion and use it as our baseline for MPG and cost..  does not include any tax credits...

 

the fusion SE ICE is $23,900  

fusion energi SE $34,700   average fuel savings of 3500 over 5 years,

Fusion hybrid se  $27,200    saving of 3200 over five years

 

here is the link from the epa...

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34089&id=34088&id=34312

 

if you are considering the fusion... you have three options.. you  will spend nearly 10K more for the fusion energi and almost 4K more for the hybrid.  it will take you nealry 12 years to break even when you compare the energy vs base fusion,  and it will take you 5 years to break even on fuel cost hybrid vs base.  this doesn't count interest rates if you have to finance the car.

 

now if you get a great deal, or buy used...you can cut this break even time down....  but  right now with  the expense of the efficient technology  it still falls in favor of the ice....

 

When the hybrid/plug-in  tech  is the same price or comparable to the base ICE  thast when people will really begin buying more and more hybrids or plug-in...

[kostby]

And if you compared the Lincoln variants of the Fusion, the MKZ, both the ICE and the Hybrid are the SAME PRICE:

 

 

[Marc Smith]

yes they are the same price.  35K  which is 12K more than the base fusion ice...  I'm sure the mkx is a much nicer fusion,  not sure its 12K nicer...  Ive never been in one  so I can't judge...

 

it does makes you wonder,  if ford can make the mkz,  the same price as its ICE counterpart.  why can't it do the same thing with the fusion?

 

currently  the ice/hybrid  there is a significant price difference...pretty much across the board though...

 

accord,  hybris is a $7K premium

camry  hybrid is  $4k premium

fiat 500   $17K premium

[raadsel]

yes they are the same price.  35K  which is 12K more than the base fusion ice...  I'm sure the mkx is a much nicer fusion,  not sure its 12K nicer...  Ive never been in one  so I can't judge...

 

it does makes you wonder,  if ford can make the mkz,  the same price as its ICE counterpart.  why can't it do the same thing with the fusion?

 

currently  the ice/hybrid  there is a significant price difference...pretty much across the board though...

 

accord,  hybris is a $7K premium

camry  hybrid is  $4k premium

fiat 500   $17K premium

 

Actually, the Accord is not a 7K premium -- as there is no equivalent "base" hybrid. Instead, you are not comparing the options on the different vehicles; to really see the "premium" you need to look at similar priced cars. It can be as much as $5000 but is more like $2,000-3,500 on most vehicles -- this site shows the price between similarly configured cars.

 

Of course, I find this logic somewhat forced. The fact is, most people don't buy the base version of a car, people like the accessories that drive the cost of the car up. In fact people often buy a car that costs more money simply because it has a larger engine -- yet you rarely hear of a "V6" premium, and definitely don't hear about the "break even point" on the larger engine.

 

Beyond that, currently I suspect there is very little premium on hybrids. They fact is, since hybrids aren't selling, a good negotiator can likely get a similar price for the hybrid version of a car as they would the similarly equipped ICE version of that car. EVs are slightly different, largely because of the government tax credits -- while they look much more expensive, most of that difference can be recovered by tax credits and other benefits (such as, in some states, being able to drive in HOV lanes). It will be interesting to see what happens to the price of EVs (such as the Energi line) once the tax credits expire.

[Marc Smith]

Rad

 

There were a few cars that were the same price. But not many. And going through the list the payback was as short as two years on up to fifteen years. I have not searched the site to see if they do the same comparison on plugin vehicles...

 

Right now tax credits are the great equalizer.. Over time. The hov exemption is going to get phased out which will negate the time savings benefit. Of course in many places to get the hov exemption you need to buy special tags/stickers which cost more or the municipalities limit the amount of decals issued..

 

And I imagine tax credits will also wane.

 

if there remains a price differential between normal ice and electric/hybrid it makes it much harder to become "green"

 

Many years ago I went the cfl route long before it was Main Street and I took advantage of the energy saving. And in my current home I have been swapping out cfls as the burn out with LEDs. So it's a consious effort to go green.

[scottwood2]

Tim,  the "problem"  right now with hybrids and plug-ins  is that  you are buying the fuel, in a sense.  you are paying up front for the fuel efficient technology, when compared against a similar ICE...

 

take a look at the fusion and use it as our baseline for MPG and cost..  does not include any tax credits...

 

the fusion SE ICE is $23,900  

fusion energi SE $34,700   average fuel savings of 3500 over 5 years,

Fusion hybrid se  $27,200    saving of 3200 over five years

 

here is the link from the epa...

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=34089&id=34088&id=34312

 

if you are considering the fusion... you have three options.. you  will spend nearly 10K more for the fusion energi and almost 4K more for the hybrid.  it will take you nealry 12 years to break even when you compare the energy vs base fusion,  and it will take you 5 years to break even on fuel cost hybrid vs base.  this doesn't count interest rates if you have to finance the car.

 

now if you get a great deal, or buy used...you can cut this break even time down....  but  right now with  the expense of the efficient technology  it still falls in favor of the ice....

 

When the hybrid/plug-in  tech  is the same price or comparable to the base ICE  thast when people will really begin buying more and more hybrids or plug-in...

That is what I found when I ran the numbers too.  It was hard to justify the extra cost of the energy. 

 

Kind of the same thing I found when I was thinking of a diesel truck.  The extra cost up front, increased maintained cost and fuel cost just did not add up to me for purchasing that option. 

[mlsstl]

Very few people buy a car based only on the financial numbers involved. Yes, most people have a budget that heavily influences the process, but even then there are usually a lot of cars in each category to choose from. New C-Max prices run from the low $20s to the $30s -- there are dozens and dozens of cars to choose from in that price range.

 

Emotion plays a major role. I think this is particularly true for hybrid shoppers and perhaps rabidly so for those buying an EV -- there is often an element of "making a statement" to show where you stand.  

 

That situation gets complicated a bit by the fact that many (most?) buyers don't think real hard about the post-purchase operating costs like insurance, personal property taxes and maintenance/repair. In fact, a lot of car salesmen are trained to focus only on getting to the desired monthly payment, regardless how ill equipped that leaves the buyer to deal with those other costs or even how upside down they are in the loan. 

 

Lots of emotion and impulse typically involved in the process and the car dealers like it that way! 

[SnowStorm]

Emotion plays a major role. I think this is particularly true for hybrid shoppers and perhaps rabidly so for those buying an EV -- there is often an element of "making a statement" to show where you stand.  

I hope though that we are starting to get past the "making a statement" phase of hybrid and EV buying.  I would buy the C-Max again even if I didn't care about mileage (which I do) or didn't want to "make a statement" (which I don't).  Even more so for an EV.  More buyers just need to experience the advantages - some of which have their own emotional aspects!.

[stevedebi]

I'm not American but I'm in both camps on this one.  I'll put about 21,000 miles a year on my C-Max.  I'll also put about 4-5,000 miles a year on my 2000 Pontiac Trans Am which has a done up 5.7L V8, aftermarket heads, headers, and gets about 17 MPG overall.  I like accelerating briskly in that car and money spent on fuel comes out of my entertainment budget instead of the transportation budget.   ;)

 

When I leased a Toyota Highlander Hybrid for 4 years, it made financial sense for me to get the hybrid versus the pure ICE model.  At my relatively high mileage and the cost of fuel here ($5.20 per gallon) at the time, the fuel savings were greater than the hybrid cost over 4 years.  I forget the numbers I had calculated, but if I did about 16,000 miles a year, I would've been better off with the ICE Highlander. Based on what happened with gas prices, it probably worked out closer to about even either way in retrospect.

 

You can't get a C-Max equivalent car without a hybrid powertrain so there was no math to be done when I bought this car.  For me, I wanted a fuel efficient vehicle with "all the toys", that could had the cargo capacity to haul all the stuff I typically need to haul.   Gas won't be "cheap" forever, it's gone up 75 cents a gallon here since I ordered my car in January.

The Highlander Hybrid is not a very good example. They put a 6 cylinder engine in that one, and it really didn't get that much better mileage. I never understood that logic.

 

I had an Escape Hybrid, with the 4 cylinder. I got about 29 overall, but I also had mechanical AWD, and the later generation of FWD FEH could get 35 in town pretty easily. Compared to the V6, that is almost 80% better MPG in town.

Edited April 27, 2015 by stevedebi

[timwil56]

I believe people who purchase a Hybrid or PHEV put more thought and research in to car buying. Buying a standard ICE vehicle is pretty straight forward and loyalty and emotion play a big part, I've driven Toyotas for years and I've had good luck, or, which car do I think looks the best. I knew there was an extra cost to buying an alternative fuel vehicle and for me it wasn't a case of how long until the price point breaks even, it was how much can I save now. I don't budget 5 years down the line (although I am for retirement in 2 1/2 years), I budget month to month, so how much will I save if I don't have to buy 30 to 50 gallons of gasoline a month.