EV+ disappointment and question

[homestead]

I visualized a hack application that would read the current gps location data and append the current list of ev+ locations

with your current location causing the car to immediately go into ev mode.  Since it would be an ev+ location the car

already knows how to deal with them without harming the HVB.

[stevedebi]

I have an Energi, but have run the HVB down several times, so I'm using the normal hybrid mode when I get near home and EV+. My experience indicates that EV+ will not go below the bottom of the available hybrid battery; it will kick on the engine rather than allow the hybrid battery to go below Ford parameters.

 

My personal opinion is that EV+ was created for the Energi models, but because the software is common to both the Hybrid and Energi, the capability is in both vehicles.

[fbov]

I disagree EV+ was created for Energi's, Steve. It's trivial to include configuration switches in software, allowing one common package to work in several different hardware configurations. I'm with the motivation described in Plus3's press release excerpts; they wanted to do something "neat" as drivers neared regular destinations.

 

And, yes, EV+ still has an ICE threshold that falls as SOC gets low, it just stays at 2-bar much, much deeper into the available SOC. I also see a good deal of charge recovery when parked, but Ford knows that...

 

Have fun,

Frank

[stevedebi]

I disagree EV+ was created for Energi's, Steve. It's trivial to include configuration switches in software, allowing one common package to work in several different hardware configurations. I'm with the motivation described in Plus3's press release excerpts; they wanted to do something "neat" as drivers neared regular destinations.

 

And, yes, EV+ still has an ICE threshold that falls as SOC gets low, it just stays at 2-bar much, much deeper into the available SOC. I also see a good deal of charge recovery when parked, but Ford knows that...

 

Have fun,

Frank

Well, only Ford knows. But I myself will continue to doubt it would have been included had there not been an Energi. Mostly because they probably would not have felt the need to develop it.

[plus 3 golfer]

..

 

But much bigger savings are possible from anticipating hills.  A 3600lb weight rolling down a long hill = free energy.  For a 1000 ft hill the energy is about 1.4 kwh, which happens to be the full capacity of the C-max battery.   That will be wasted if the control system, in its ignorance, charges the drive battery fully on the way to the edge of the descent.  

I understand what you desire but you likely should have bought the Energi if a 1000 foot hill is a concern of yours. The quote above is very misleading as there are significant losses in converting PE to usable energy. ;)  There are drag forces at play as the car coasts down the hill that have to be overcome which depletes energy.  This energy is an easy calculation / estimate using EPA Road Load Horsepower coefficients, the downhill  % grade and the speed descending the hill. 

 

There are energy conversion losses to go from rotational to electrical and back to rotational energy.  My guess is these losses are in the 20 to 30% range: MG2 efficiency 0.92 * Inverter efficiency 0.95 * HVB efficiency 0.97 and again * MG2 efficiency 0.92 = 0.78 overall efficiency.

 

Suffice it to say that 1000 foot elevation change will not yield 1.4 kWh of usable energy and it's certainly not free as it takes fuel to make it to the top of the hill.  Since ICE has to generally runs going up hills, it may be more efficient overall to operate ICE at the most efficient point on the BSFC curve by charging the HVB.   Bottom line it's not as simple to mark a hill like an EV+ location and simply use EV when one enters the hill location.  Also, I really think that what would make sense with predictive logic for hills would be use through rolling hills where the elevation change was rather minor not 1000 feet.

 

Again for those that have significant hills to climb and descend, an Energi might make more sense.   Here's a thread to read.  It appears that Valkraider captured about 60% of the potential energy of his Energi at the top of the mountain on his long descent down the mountain. Most of that would have been lost with the Hybrid.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer

[SnowStorm]

I would love an NRG but I've driven plenty of scenarios where a smart hill algorithm would avoid a lot of friction brake waste in my "Non-Plugin-NRG"!  The algorithm would use altitude data and may also benefit from "real world" speed data for each curve (not speed limits).  I would venture to say that the 0.5 kWh "available capacity" in the "hybrid" is enough to eliminate present friction brake usage on most hills/mountains if the SOC was managed properly.  Or have a "No Charge From ICE" button that would stop the ICE from charging the HVB until you started descending or started braking a lot.  It would be distinctly different from EV+.  With a bit of experience you would know when to hit the button on the way up.  However, as I've noted before, I doubt all these improvements would make hardly any difference in overall MPG (for most folks anyway) - but it would be "neat".

[stevedebi]

I would love an NRG but I've driven plenty of scenarios where a smart hill algorithm would avoid a lot of friction brake waste in my "Non-Plugin-NRG"!  The algorithm would use altitude data and may also benefit from "real world" speed data for each curve (not speed limits).  I would venture to say that the 0.5 kWh "available capacity" in the "hybrid" is enough to eliminate present friction brake usage on most hills/mountains if the SOC was managed properly.  Or have a "No Charge From ICE" button that would stop the ICE from charging the HVB until you started descending or started braking a lot.  It would be distinctly different from EV+.  With a bit of experience you would know when to hit the button on the way up.  However, as I've noted before, I doubt all these improvements would make hardly any difference in overall MPG (for most folks anyway) - but it would be "neat".

What would happen if a non-savvy user hits the button by mistake? The vehicle MPG would plummet, since the ICE alone does a pretty poor job of mileage.

[blaquetung]

Thanks for the patent information. That was awesome.

 

Also, since hybrids have so much variability in MPG based on combinations of gas or electric battery, it is worth considering when deciding on moving to a new area. I live in Illinois and frequently drive a fast, long, flat stretch. Not so good for MPG. I was floored to see the MPG I was getting in Colorado. When I drove from Leadville, CO to Denver, CO, which is like 100 miles, I got something on the order of 400 MPG.

 

If I move residence, I'll take a look topographically at the route to work. The more hills or elevation changes to work the better!

[raadsel]

Thanks for the patent information. That was awesome.

 

Also, since hybrids have so much variability in MPG based on combinations of gas or electric battery, it is worth considering when deciding on moving to a new area. I live in Illinois and frequently drive a fast, long, flat stretch. Not so good for MPG. I was floored to see the MPG I was getting in Colorado. When I drove from Leadville, CO to Denver, CO, which is like 100 miles, I got something on the order of 400 MPG.

 

If I move residence, I'll take a look topographically at the route to work. The more hills or elevation changes to work the better!

 

The real trick would be getting that going the other direction. It really helps fuel economy when you are dropping almost a mile in altitude.

[blaquetung]

Right, I think going up was something like 25 MPG. So, average 400 and 25 and you get roughly 213 MPG round trip.

 

I guess best would be to have the Energi and live at a lower elevation than work. Use up the battery and switch to gas on the way to work. Capture energy the whole way home and charge less.

[DaveofDurham]

Right, I think going up was something like 25 MPG. So, average 400 and 25 and you get roughly 213 MPG round trip.

 

I guess best would be to have the Energi and live at a lower elevation than work. Use up the battery and switch to gas on the way to work. Capture energy the whole way home and charge less.

 

If you drive from Denver to Leadville and get 25 mpg and then drive the same distance Leadville to Denver and get 400mpg, then your avergage mpg for the trip is a bit over 47 mpg.

 

[Distance is 100 miles each way.  Going up you use 4 gallons of fuel and coming back you use 1/4 gallon of fuel.  Total distance 200 miles.  Total fuel use 4.25 gallons.  Overall mpg 200/4.25 = 47 mpg.  Coincidentally matching the original mfgs estimate for the C-Max.]

[SnowStorm]

Or use the "reciprocal" equation (assuming distances are the same!) where:

 

Average MPG = 2 / [(1 / MPG1) + (1 / MPG2)]  = 2 / [1/400 + 1/25] = 47

 

If distances aren't the same, find total gallons and total miles and compute as done above.  Or move to Canada and use L/100km which can be averaged "normally" (same distances) without any mathematical gymnastics.

[DaveofDurham]

Or use the "reciprocal" equation (assuming distances are the same!) where:

 

Average MPG = 2 / [(1 / MPG1) + (1 / MPG2)]  = 2 / [1/400 + 1/25] = 47

 

If distances aren't the same, find total gallons and total miles and compute as done above.  Or move to Canada and use L/100km which can be averaged "normally" (same distances) without any mathematical gymnastics.

 

Amazing how the answer for us is always 47, but for the Car Guys the answer was always 2.

[Smiling Jack]

 

 "....for the Car Guys the answer was always 2."

 

2 ?

[DaveofDurham]

"....for the Car Guys the answer was always 2."

 

2 ?

I don't remember the context, but one or both of them often said, "The answer is two."

[blaquetung]

:-) Amazing logic!

 

If you want the dealer to bug off about certain milestones to sell things, just flip back and forth between miles and kilometers. They won't convert and you can save their breath.

 

So, "dumb question" here, what are the metric equivalent terms for mileage?

 

Example one, "mileage" for an oil change would be termed?

 

Example two, "mileage" for fuel efficiency would be termed?

[blaquetung]

And thanks for the math catch. I should have thought more about simply averaging the two rates.

[stevedebi]

:-) Amazing logic!

 

If you want the dealer to bug off about certain milestones to sell things, just flip back and forth between miles and kilometers. They won't convert and you can save their breath.

 

So, "dumb question" here, what are the metric equivalent terms for mileage?

 

Example one, "mileage" for an oil change would be termed?

 

Example two, "mileage" for fuel efficiency would be termed?

The fuel efficiency is liters / 100 kilometers. The lower the number, the better.