Will battery replacement Influence your decision to sell early?

[Generalbeluga]

Hey C-Max Hybrid owners,

Is anyone concerned about the resale value of their car as the 8 to10 year anniversary approaches?  What about the cost of battery replacement should they go bad after their factory warrantee runs out?  To be perfectly honest, I looked past this concern when I bought the car because I loved the concept, the styling and the fit and finish of the interior but, now in my second year of ownership I can see that I will have to make a decision in the next five years of so; keep it or dump it!  

 

Assuming that new hybrid batteries cost the $3,500+ that is reported, I can't help but think that this will have a major impact on the car's resale value long before the eight year warrantee expires.  Sort of like owning bonds.  Selling before their maturity date and you loose money.  No one wants buy into a used car that they will have to drop that kind of money into within the next three or four years!  Am I wrong here guys??  Interestingly enough, I haven't  seen a single discussion on this forum about this subject.  It is almost as if us hybrid owners are whistling in the dark, too afraid to address the real elephant in the room, resale value as the hybrid batteries near their useful life span and need replacement.    

 

Just wondering what the rest of you all think about this issue and whether or not it will influence your timing to sell your car in the future.  If not why?  

 

John

[raadsel]

I suspect it won't be the big issue some suspect. Much of that is based on the Prius, though Toyota has sold far more Prii than Ford has sold hybrids. There are companies now that sell/install refurbished Prius batteries for $1,000 -- and that includes them installing the battery where you are rather than needing to take your car into their shop; plus they give a 1 year warranty on the battery. There are some Prius owners, those electrically inclined, that have "fixed" their battery packs for $100.

 

One thing you need to realize is that it is not a single battery, the HVB is multiple small battery cells that are wired together to make 1 big battery. When the HVB "fails", often it is just a few of those cells that has actually failed. So, what these battery shops are doing is finding a few wrecked cars to get the first few batteries, then test the individual cells and reconditioning them, then making sure the cells are within norms for capacity and holding a charge. Any bad cells are recycled and the usable cells are put back together to make an HVB. Then, when they replace a "bad" HVB and put their reconditioned pack in, they start the process over with the battery they replaced.

 

I'm guessing that many of these shops that specialize in Prius now will expand to work on other hybrids as our cars get older. Additionally, Ford is claiming that the battery pack will last for the "life" of the car. Granted, that is a rather generic term that could mean anything -- though we do know that Ford has been testing the packs for longevity in various environments. There are reports of Lithium Polymer battery packs lasting 200,000-300,000 miles; I seem to recall there are some taxis that have done this. Additionally, Hyundai claims their HVB, in testing, was found to have minimal degradation after over 300,000 miles -- and they offer a lifetime warranty on the HVB in their hybrid (non-transferable).

[SnowStorm]

No, I'm not concerned for several reasons:

1. I expect to run it until the resale value is "negligible" anyway
2. Another "gas crisis" could double the resale value "overnight".  (Of course I hope it doesn't happen - I lived through it 40 years ago and it wasn't fun.)
3. I don't expect significant battery failures - see below.

I don't mean to belittle the concern but this whole thing about hybrid (and BEV) batteries wearing out or failing and leaving the car worthless has taken on the nature of an urban legend.  Some items to consider:

1. Ford has published a graph projecting a 20% capacity reduction after 300k miles.  The battery is hardly "worn out" with 80% capacity remaining.  In  fact, in a hybrid, I doubt you could tell the difference - might loose 1 mpg or so.  In a BEV you would loose 20% of your possible range, it is true.  But why is the car "worthless"?  If your 250 mile Tesla now only goes 200 on a charge, I'll be glad to come pick it up!  Give you $1000 to boot!  (Even if the above number is only 150k miles, its still not a concern.)
2. There should be no reason that most "failed" batteries can't be repaired.  If the HV contactor goes bad, one cell goes open circuit, etc, just get it repaired.  No need to replace the whole thing.  People have been repairing the packs in the "original" Honda Insight for years.  If your ICE blows a head gasket, you don't drop in a new engine - you replace the gasket.
3. As time goes on there will, sadly, be more and more good battery packs available from wrecking yards.  It is in a very protected location and should survive well.  Obviously, cost will be much less then new.

My expectation is that hybrids will reach "end of life" mostly for reasons similar to conventional cars - as opposed to battery specific issues.

 

(P.S.  Was just about to "Post" when raadsel beat me - sorry for any repetition.)

[Kelleytoons]

Yipes -- I was about to post when Snowstorm said all I was going to say (and more... and better than I could have).

Still, I'll add my voice and say that it also depends on how you drive your vehicles and what your expectations are.  If you have almost any vehicle more than 10 years or so the resale value is practically nil (depending on mileage, of course).  Our Durango, now at 13 years, is in that category.  The repairs we had to make on it recently were FAR more than the resale value, but we did it because it's been reliable for us and was still cheaper than another new car.  But we tend to keep our vehicles until they just don't drive anymore.

 

I am assuming, with a lot of evidence to support me, the C-Max will last us at least 10 years, given the mileage we are putting on it (at 10 we will still have under 80K most likely).  If it's worthless to anyone else at that point in time who cares?  I'll continue to drive and repair as needed and when it doesn't make any sense to keep it I'll junk it somewhere and still get a few hundred for it.

 

But... if you are the sort that likes to have a new car you probably ought to sell sooner than later (although, truth be told, you are then more likely to be the sort who should lease rather than buy).  Otherwise... calm down.

[markd]

We will be able to drive it two years after we pay it off before the warranty is over and by then it will be 2020 and time for a new car.

[scottwood2]

It is a new item that people don't know what to expect over time.  Everything has a life.  To me it is the same as a transmission, engine etc.  They all have a life and they can cost thousands to repair/replace.   Transmissions can be over $7000 now.  The battery is cheap compared to that. 

 

It is not an issue to me but the perception is a real issue to buyers and that can affect the resale value. 

[fbov]

Do a search for "Ford Key Life Test" and you'll find lots of data to assuage a rational mind.

 

The chart here is all I need to see.

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?doc_id=256425&dfpPParams=ind_184,industry_auto,bid_318,aid_256425&dfpLayout=blog

 

I'm far more concerned with other aspects of drivetrain reliability than I am the HVB.

 

Have fun,

Frank

[cheezy]

Hey C-Max Hybrid owners,

Is anyone concerned about the resale value of their car as the 8 to10 year anniversary approaches?  What about the cost of battery replacement should they go bad after their factory warrantee runs out?  To be perfectly honest, I looked past this concern when I bought the car because I loved the concept, the styling and the fit and finish of the interior but, now in my second year of ownership I can see that I will have to make a decision in the next five years of so; keep it or dump it!  

 

Assuming that new hybrid batteries cost the $3,500+ that is reported, I can't help but think that this will have a major impact on the car's resale value long before the eight year warrantee expires.  Sort of like owning bonds.  Selling before their maturity date and you loose money.  No one wants buy into a used car that they will have to drop that kind of money into within the next three or four years!  Am I wrong here guys??  Interestingly enough, I haven't  seen a single discussion on this forum about this subject.  It is almost as if us hybrid owners are whistling in the dark, too afraid to address the real elephant in the room, resale value as the hybrid batteries near their useful life span and need replacement.    

 

Just wondering what the rest of you all think about this issue and whether or not it will influence your timing to sell your car in the future.  If not why?  

 

John

 

 

Interesting post John. 

 

There is an aftermarket battery build market for these, just as there is for the Prius batts., which is not only more affordable but is more stout as well.

 

 

Who is it you are trying to scare, or convince?  

Edited July 11, 2015 by cheezy

[stevedebi]

One of the (minor) reasons I got the Energi is that the battery will last longer than the engine. The pure EV range will go down, but it will work as a hybrid basically forever, since the HVB is so much larger.  In hybrid mode I can get around 50s MPG in town with careful driving.

 

I don't plan on keeping mine past 10 years or so (the things just get too expensive to keep in repair, and I'll want a new car before that), but I could if I wanted.

[Podivin]

Personally I'm not concerned about the battery. We had a Prius for 7 years and put just under 200k on it. During the last year or so we could tell that the engine was running a bit more, and the average mpg was down from 50 to 47, we blamed this on the battery getting a bit weaker, but never actually had it tested to be SURE.

Given that the C-Max has essentially the same technology in it I'm going to assume that the battery will last at least that long. By that point somebody will have come up with something that gets 60mpg plus, and I'll have switched to that.  :)

[raadsel]

Personally I'm not concerned about the battery. We had a Prius for 7 years and put just under 200k on it. During the last year or so we could tell that the engine was running a bit more, and the average mpg was down from 50 to 47, we blamed this on the battery getting a bit weaker, but never actually had it tested to be SURE.

Given that the C-Max has essentially the same technology in it I'm going to assume that the battery will last at least that long. By that point somebody will have come up with something that gets 60mpg plus, and I'll have switched to that.   :)

 

Just to be clear, the C-Max has a Lithium Polymer battery instead of the Nickel Metal Hydride in the Prius. While we don't have as much data yet on LiPo batteries, the data that is available indicates that the LiPo batteries should last longer, maybe 100,000 miles or more, than NiMH batteries.

[fbov]

+1

 

If the Key Life Test comparison is valid, I don't expect 100K more miles, I expect 3-5x the life!

 

NOTE: all the data shown is for NiMH, EXCEPT the green line. Data vs. yellow like shows test prediction vs. actual results. Yellow line vs. green line is battery technology comparison, showing how much longer Li-ion are predicted to last.

 

HAve fun,

Frank

Edited July 17, 2015 by fbov

[jeromep]

The "Key Life Test comparison" is about the best thing I've read yet about the new battery chemestry Ford is using and its lifespan potential.  As a Prius driver, in addition to the C-Max, I've had no concerns about the battery in the Prius.  Mine Prius is now over 10 years old with 75k on it and the car drives just like the day it was new.   Even if the battery did act up, I'd replace it or have a specialist do cell reconditioning to keep the car going.  It is much more valuable as one of the household vehicles and will cost less to repair than it will be to replace it.

 

Between the sheer volume of Toyota hybrids on the street, and the volume of Ford hybrids, too; I think it is safe to say that the whole hybrid technology package is pretty much tested and proven.  Now the real challenge is scaling it up past the size of the typical small and mid-sized vehicle and putting it into application with larger/heavier platforms, like trucks.

[Vancemi]

There were some people when I told them we bought the C-Max hybrid they would say well what about the battery replacement. I told them why worry about it it's suppose to last life of car I think I read some where 8 years. But they would still say well then what will you do because of the cost, if the car other wise is in good shape which I believe it will be we will replace it. I think now the battery's are like 3200.00 by the end of life for our battery they will be available much cheaper I would think. In any case we plan on keeping our C-Max for a long time.

[revanoff2]

Between the sheer volume of Toyota hybrids on the street, and the volume of Ford hybrids, too; I think it is safe to say that the whole hybrid technology package is pretty much tested and proven.  Now the real challenge is scaling it up past the size of the typical small and mid-sized vehicle and putting it into application with larger/heavier platforms, like trucks.

 

Jeromep,

 

GM have already started this on their Silverado and GMC equivalent; saw one yesterday!

 

Personally, with regard to this thread, I have a 6 year loan on my used 2013 SEL. It had 64k on it when purchased. I drive about 30k/year just for work, so that will be 180k miles by the time the loan has been paid off, with the 64k it already has on it will be 244k, What will the resale value be? Zero. Do I anticipate having to put a battery in it? Yes. Will I have to? No idea.

 

My thought is that the HVB replacement hasn't been all over the news/interwebs for really any of the Hybrid vehicles. This indicates to me one of 2 things: 1. The HVB aren't an issue subject to reasonable expectations, or 2. Someone is keeping it hush-hush. I have doubts about the second one. To be honest, I have a larger concern about the engine, as there are literally no indicators on the dash that tell me WTF it is doing other than RPM when I change to MyView. It doesn't state oil pressure, temp.. nothing.

 

Overall, I plan to drive this thing into the ground. We'll see how long it lasts.

 

~Revanoff~

[fbov]

Welcome, and here are a couple things to consider about the battery.

 

Ford published results of a "key life test" for both NiMH (Prii) and Li-ion (Ford). Curves are test data, points are real-world battery life data.

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?doc_id=256425&dfpPParams=ind_184,industry_auto,bid_318,aid_256425&dfpLayout=blog

 

Given NiMH exceed the test prediction, and Li-ion are predicted to have a much slower decline, I'm not worried.

 

Don't discount #2.

 

I have heard rumors of Toyota having large numbers of Prii HVBs fail over the extremely cold winter. Was told there were dealerships with lots full of cars waiting on batteries (under warranty, btw). I won't repeat unsubstantiated rumors, and I could find no confirming news reports at the time, so I never mentioned it.

 

Get to know the engine displays.

 

I realize that Inform, Enlighten, Engage, and Empower are really strange names for a dashboard, but the associated data displays have everything you need... if you set up My View correctly. I'm with you; need to know engine speed and coolant temperature. You can get both in My View.

- I drive with Empower, for the EV threshold bar (blue outline), so I can stay in EV if I want EV, and get ICE going when that's needed.

- My View is below Empower, with tach and coolant temp

- Engage is above Empower, and it's unique in showing the split of EV vs. ICE torque. This is where you see the warm-up routine that, upon start-up, will run the engine but only use the battery to move the car.

 

You've already realized the biggest thing is how you drive it, so enjoy!

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[Taz]

Did they do away with some of the views for the 2014? I can't find the tach or the water temp option in the display? I access it via Torque but that isn't always handy.

 

As for batteries, if they last 100k, I'll be happy. Almost every mile I drive is written off. So if I make it to 100k, I'll have paid for the initial purchase price of the car almost 3 times over. I originally planned on just have it for 2 years or so and for my wife mostly. I end up driving it the most since it is so cost efficient. 

[raadsel]

Did they do away with some of the views for the 2014? I can't find the tach or the water temp option in the display? I access it via Torque but that isn't always handy.

 

As for batteries, if they last 100k, I'll be happy. Almost every mile I drive is written off. So if I make it to 100k, I'll have paid for the initial purchase price of the car almost 3 times over. I originally planned on just have it for 2 years or so and for my wife mostly. I end up driving it the most since it is so cost efficient. 

 

No, they are there on the 2014 but you have to manually "program" them. Find the display that is labled "MyView", then push the right "button" on the left of the steering wheel and it will let you program what "My View" shows. There is a left and a right side on "MyView", the tachometer is on the left -- so scroll through until you find it then push the center button on the left side of the steering wheel, so you can program the right view -- and this is where you will find the temperature gauge. Page 90 of your Owner's Manual shows all the options available under MyView.

Edited September 3, 2015 by raadsel

[ptjones]

Here is what I know, I have 106K on the car with 55K on ICE and 13k on oil change, I have no noticeable loss of oil level. I had Trans replaced at 98K covered under warrranty.  HVB seems to be working fine with maybe slight loss in capacity.  Currently averaging 55-57mpg so long term is looking good to me. IMO :) 

 

Paul 

[plus 3 golfer]

Here is what I know, I have 106K on the car with 55K on ICE and 13k on oil change, I have no noticeable loss of oil level. I had Trans replaced at 98K covered under warrranty.  HVB seems to be working fine with maybe slight loss in capacity.  Currently averaging 55-57mpg so long term is looking good to me. IMO :)

 

Paul 

I think FORScan might be able to access enough data to assess the capacity level of the HVB.  Someone knowledgeable should be able to take the data from new, low mileage and high mileage vehicles and perhaps come up with software something like Leaf owners have to estimate capacity.

 

Why do you think you have a loss of capacity?  I would envision that the operating range of the HVB would virtually stay the same as there is IMO sufficient installed HVB capacity to allow the normal operating kWh to remain virtually the same.  An interesting point is that early on when I monitored SOC going down long steep grades (filling up the HVB), the highest level of SOC I saw was just below 70% (IIRC around 69.7%).  Recently 52 k miles, SOC has exceeded 70% (71.2% IIRC).  Could we be seeing the overall 1.4 kWh of a new HVB declining (which we should expect) but that the normal operating range is staying virtually constant as evidenced by an increase in SOC %.  We are using a higher % of the declining HVB capacity.  Most recent recording is below showing about 71.2% SOC.

 

 

[ptjones]

I don't think it effects my MPG's because I'm usually going between 38-45% SOC and rarely above 60%.  One time I have seen 80% after coming back from trip at night with 69% approx. SOC and in the morning reading 80%. ScanGaugeII starts by showing value last turned off and then new value when turned on.   The reason I can tell the capacity is smaller is that the HVB fill ups easier now on I-17 going down to Camp Verde. :)

 

Paul

[okashira]

I think FORScan might be able to access enough data to assess the capacity level of the HVB.  Someone knowledgeable should be able to take the data from new, low mileage and high mileage vehicles and perhaps come up with software something like Leaf owners have to estimate capacity.

 

Why do you think you have a loss of capacity?  I would envision that the operating range of the HVB would virtually stay the same as there is IMO sufficient installed HVB capacity to allow the normal operating kWh to remain virtually the same.  An interesting point is that early on when I monitored SOC going down long steep grades (filling up the HVB), the highest level of SOC I saw was just below 70% (IIRC around 69.7%).  Recently 52 k miles, SOC has exceeded 70% (71.2% IIRC).  Could we be seeing the overall 1.4 kWh of a new HVB declining (which we should expect) but that the normal operating range is staying virtually constant as evidenced by an increase in SOC %.  We are using a higher % of the declining HVB capacity.  Most recent recording is below showing about 71.2% SOC.

 

 

 

Absolutely. I could determine the health of a batt, hybrid or energi, to better then 1% accuracy with the available data on the CANBUS.

[high mileage daddy]

Having the C-max for just a little over two years an having put 112,000 miles on it Kelly blue book places a value of just under $9,000.00. I do not think that I am really concerned about resale. That being said my trusty side kick has fallen ill. She has been at the dealer for a week and still no end to the problem in sight. This has been the only major issue so far with my C-max. At first they said it my be the HVB but have receded that diagnosis. It was kind of a shock to think about putting that much money into a car that was not yet full paid off.