SnowStorm Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Has anyone heard if there is a repair option that's cheaper than replacing the whole thing? I'm still concerned because The Enterprise is pushing 90k miles and I don't know if it has the "fix" (mid April 2013 build date). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obob Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Has anyone heard if there is a repair option that's cheaper than replacing the whole thing? I'm still concerned because The Enterprise is pushing 90k miles and I don't know if it has the "fix" (mid April 2013 build date). http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/3094-ssm-44252-hybrids-in-taxi-service-hf35-transmission-bearing-noise/ This SSM was posted in October 2013 - I would say it is almost certain you do not the fix. I consider it a mistake to buy a first model year car, like I did. I wanted to buy American but am sorry I bought this car in the first year. In hindsight I could have gotten an manual transmission focus pretty cheap and used that for a while. I think the people buying a C-Max now are getting a great car. If they came out with one in a few years when my transmission goes bad that had a manual trans that would be a very tempting. Edited February 18, 2016 by obob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Has anyone heard if there is a repair option that's cheaper than replacing the whole thing? I'm still concerned because The Enterprise is pushing 90k miles and I don't know if it has the "fix" (mid April 2013 build date).You can pick up salvaged, low mile eCVTs IIRC last time I looked for around $1600+ rather than buying new unit. I doubt a shop would be able to repair one any cheaper. I also would think that eventually Ford or others will offer rebuilt units but the cost will likely be a lot more than $1600. But one would likely get a longer warranty with a rebuilt one than the typical 30 day on salvaged units. obob, ptjones and C-MaxSea 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedebi Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Has anyone heard if there is a repair option that's cheaper than replacing the whole thing? I'm still concerned because The Enterprise is pushing 90k miles and I don't know if it has the "fix" (mid April 2013 build date).What state are you in? The CARB states warranty the eCVT for 10 years / 150K miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 As far as I know, Virginia is not one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevedebi Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 As far as I know, Virginia is not one of them.No, doesn't look like it: http://mde.maryland.gov/programs/Air/MobileSources/CleanCars/Pages/states.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obob Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 "SSM 44252 - Hybrids In Taxi Service - HF35 Transmission Bearing Noise Some 2013 C-MAX Hybrid and 2013-2014 Fusion Hybrid vehicles operating in taxi service may exhibit a metal-on-metal scraping-type sound from the transmission. This noise will be present in all gear ranges including neutral when the vehicle is moving, but will not be present when the vehicle is stationary or in park. The current transmission assembly (7000) service parts incorporate design improvements to enhance durability under the unique operating conditions of taxi service." Thoughts on the bolded text ?? It seems like Ford just didn't allow for something and there is not a lot we can do about it. Just a weak link. So the key to not having this problem with the trans is keeping the car stationary or in park - yeah no problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 (edited) I doubt we will ever know what the design improvements are unless some action requires Ford to disclose the issue. It also appears that this SSM doesn't apply to the Energi. Since the statement says the noise will be present ... when the vehicle is moving ... but not ... when stationary or in park, implies that ICE can run and charge the HVB with no noise when stationary. This "no noise" condition suggests that the planetary gear set is likely okay as: 1) the ring gear (the outer gear that spins when the car is moving) would be stationary, 2) ICE would be spinning the planet carrier, 3) the planet carrier would be spinning the planet gears, 4) the planet gears would be spinning the sun gear, and 5) the sun gear would spin MG1 - the generator charging the HVB. So the issue is likely between the ring gear and the differential. It was theorized in another thread, IIRC, by DrDiesel that the issue may be related to TFT as the Energi has an externally mounted auxiliary electric transmission fluid pump in addition to an internal pump. The Hybrid only has the internal pump. The internal pump only spins when ICE is running. I'm not sure I buy this is related to TFT as I do monitor TFT and never have seen high TFT while stopped or the several times where I hit traffic jams where it would take 15-20 minutes to go 3 or 4 miles. TFT seems to be more dependent on use of the traction motor during regenerative braking. I can certainly see why the Energi has the aux, pump. as one can drive 20+ miles without running ICE. The only other difference that I know of between the Energi and Hybrid transmission is the final drive ratio. Could the issue be something with the final drive hardware where there was a defective component in the Hybrid and not the Energi. So, then why did Ford seem to imply this SSM only apply to taxi service and not all Hybrids? Taxis are generally driven harder likely with more stop-and-go driving (trying to increase waiting time) and will likely be driven many times the miles in year than a typical driver. Is it simply mileage related and/or a batch of bad components? Edited February 19, 2016 by Plus 3 Golfer obob and ptjones 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automate Posted June 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 I've updated this 1st post with more C-max and Fusion CVT failures obob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obob Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 Here are 3 more from this thread: http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/6067-long-term-c-max-tests-75-transmission-failure/page-1 All 2013 C-Max VIN# 1FADP5AU1DL528698116k replaced transmission $3989 VIN# 1FADP5AU0DL53513990k replaced transmission $4383 VIN# 1FADP5AU0DL532158110k replaced transmission $3889 ptjones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homestead Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 Do the Energi models suffer with the same fate on transmission failures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automate Posted June 29, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 Do the Energi models suffer with the same fate on transmission failures?Yes, see the list in the first post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djc Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 There's a couple 2013 Cmax transmission failures listed at truedelta.com. I believe both occurred at 90k+ miles. One mentions bad MG2 bearing.Milleage at failure is about the same as the 3 that failed out of the 4 vehicles the Idaho Lab are testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 I posted mine on their. :) Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djc Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Ford lists the Hybrid as having a top electric only speed of 62, while tne Energi is 84 mph. http://www.ford.com/cars/cmax/specifications/view-all/ It might be interesting to know how these numbers were picked. There are no doubt some trade-offs - perhaps mpg vs. reliability was one. My memory is that these mph numbers are quite a bit higher than Toyota's practice with Prius. I am under the impression that high mph with the engine off requires very high motor rpm. Perhaps this can cause transmission bearing failure, and produce a higher failure rate in the Energi than the hybrid under similar highway driving in hot temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homestead Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Ford reprogrammed hybrids in summer of 2013 to also have same top electric speed of Energi.It seemed to help mpg's for me a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 Ford lists the Hybrid as having a top electric only speed of 62, while tne Energi is 84 mph. That should be 85mph. http://www.ford.com/cars/cmax/specifications/view-all/ It might be interesting to know how these numbers were picked. There are no doubt some trade-offs - perhaps mpg vs. reliability was one. My memory is that these mph numbers are quite a bit higher than Toyota's practice with Prius. you barely step on the accelerator and the ICE comes on above 25mpg, very annoying. ;) I am under the impression that high mph with the engine off requires very high motor rpm. With a top speed of 115mph the Trans/DC Motors are running at a little more than half speed at HWY speeds. Perhaps this can cause transmission bearing failure, and produce a higher failure rate in the Energi than the hybrid under similar highway driving in hot temps. We don't know what the failure rate is for sure because the sample is to small. Problem maybe as simple as the heat treatment of the bearing wasn't done right. ;) Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 ..I am under the impression that high mph with the engine off requires very high motor rpm. Perhaps this can cause transmission bearing failure, and produce a higher failure rate in the Energi than the hybrid under similar highway driving in hot temps.MG2 (the traction motor) spins proportionately with vehicle speed (MPH). ICE on or off has no "bearing" :) on the rpm of MG2. The load on the bearings of MG2 likely differs when coasting, EV only operation, ICE only operation, combination of ICE / EV, going up hill and so forth. I wonder if an Energi can maintain 85 mph on a steep upgrade in EV only mode? or will ICE come on to maintain speed at lower than 85 mph when going up steep hills? Also, at around 85 mph, MG2 spins at about 10,500 rpm based on extrapolation of observed data from my Hybrid (never watched / recorded MG1 / MG2 data at 85 mph) and based on typical data shown in the Service Manual. ptjones and djc 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livesmith Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 (edited) I wonder if an Energi can maintain 85 mph on a steep upgrade in EV only mode? or will ICE come on to maintain speed at lower than 85 mph when going up steep hills?AHAHAHAHA, NOT EVEN CLOSE... In my experience the energi in EV mode: -has some great torque up to around 30-40mph range. Still holds up decently up o around 50-60mph, but you're definitely not up to a Prius' level of acceleration at that point. 70mph takes a bit of time. Haven't tried much over 70 yet. And that's mostly talking about flat-ish terrain and going easy with the go pedal. Add even a moderate hill and anything over 40mph is going to take a long while IF you can keep it in EV mode. My experience is that if you're watching the Empower screen and I ask for more than about 2.5-3 bars of power for more than maybe a minute it will kick on the ICE even if there's plenty of battery left and even at 50F temps. And on my hills around here 2-3 bars of power is generally only enough to keep the speed up to about 30-40mph. Basically if I take my 14 mile commute to work on the highway which is pretty much on a general decline it will hold 70mph and use up about 80% of the battery. I tried it once for the return trip with a full battery and even trying to take a long time to get it up to speed on the uphill portion, it was still slow and kicking in the ICE long before it was out of battery. I'm learning the more I use my Energi that it has a lot of options, but it's NOT something that's made to just go out and run on the highway in EV mode(and even less so for very long). It can do it in limited amounts, but it's not necessarily good for it. Edited July 4, 2016 by livesmith djc and ptjones 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djc Posted July 7, 2016 Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 Ford reprogrammed hybrids in summer of 2013 to also have same top electric speed of Energi.It seemed to help mpg's for me a little. I thought that too. But then I wonder why they list the 2016 hybrid as 62 mph.http://www.ford.com/...tions/view-all/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homestead Posted July 7, 2016 Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 I thought that too. But then I wonder why they list the 2016 hybrid as 62 mph.http://www.ford.com/...tions/view-all/Maybe they didn't update their specs for the change.I verified my car before and after the update so it is working at > 62 now.Maybe someone with a 2016 can test their car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obob Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 here's one http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/5038-my-transmission-broke-and-yours-might-too/page-3?do=findComment&comment=59521 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djc Posted July 13, 2016 Report Share Posted July 13, 2016 There's a service bulletin for transmission failure in 2013-14 fusion hybrid and C-max, TSB 14B07 https://www.cars.com/articles/2013-2014-ford-fusion-hybrid-c-max-hybrid-transmission-issue-1420684957170/ quote: The problem: The transfer shaft assembly bearing may fail prematurely. If this happens, thumping, rubbing or grinding noises may emanate from the transmission. Additionally, the check-engine light may illuminate due to a manufacturing fault in the transmission.Read more at https://www.cars.com/articles/2013-2014-ford-fusion-hybrid-c-max-hybrid-transmission-issue-1420684957170/#SOkY3tYIfCDXfYUA.99 Aside: earlier I wondered why 62 mph had been picked by Ford for max EV-only power. I forgot that 62 mph is 100km/h. No doubt that is where the magic is. djc ptjones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanstri Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 Another transmission failure to add to the list: 2013 C-Max Hybrid VIN 1FADP5BUXDL529282 build date ~2/2013 47k miles grinding noise (car is at dealer's shop -I don't have access to door sticker) I special ordered car and accepted delivery 3/20/2013 See my thread on eCVT forum Trans failure - VERY unhappy with customer service. I flat tow behind my RV in accordance with the owners' manual but I think Ford wants to deny warranty claim based on this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted July 14, 2016 Report Share Posted July 14, 2016 Another transmission failure to add to the list: 2013 C-Max Hybrid VIN 1FADP5BUXDL529282 build date ~2/2013 47k miles grinding noise (car is at dealer's shop -I don't have access to door sticker) I special ordered car and accepted delivery 3/20/2013 See my thread on eCVT forum Trans failure - VERY unhappy with customer service. I flat tow behind my RV in accordance with the owners' manual but I think Ford wants to deny warranty claim based on this...Were you able to get a hold of our FORD REP? :drop: Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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