I hate dealershipsh

[HotPotato]

I always wonder about the WHM is on either electrics or a hybrid like the Energi -- given how much we pay for electricity here (A LOT!) I have a suspicion that in the end it wouldn't be any more cost efficient for me than my C-Max.

 

But having a flat charge for EV charging *could* make it worthwhile, assuming they don't just raise the rates (as HOAs can anytime they damn well choose to do so.  At least the power companies have to go through the pretense of public hearings :>).

 

The flat charge is a stopgap until they get individually metered lines installed. Average price per kilowatt hour of electricity in the US is 12 cents, so I'm not worried.

 

Whether an EV pencils out depends on the cost of the EV and the electricity. Getting a good deal on the car is easy: if you live in a ZEV state, lease the one you want new; and if you don't live in an ZEV state, buy a used Nissan Leaf.  Getting a good deal on the power is easy if you charge at home with 120 or 240v, even more so with a time-of-use plan; but it costs a little more to charge at 240v public chargers than at home, and can cost more than gas to charge at public 480v DC fast chargers.

 

In short, it depends on your use case, but for most people it'll be cheaper. I did a spreadsheet and found I could save anywhere from 3 to 10 grand over the next 3 years by swapping the C-Max for second EV, but I'm holding out for longer-range batteries.

[Kelleytoons]

 but I'm holding out for longer-range batteries.

 

Right, that's the big issue for me -- we couldn't use an EV for anything other than my tennis "commute" since any other trip we take is at least 120 miles (round trip but no way to charge when we go there).  But I could definitely see an EV replacing our Durango down the road (say three or four years from now, when my wife finally retires).  

 

I don't know what a ZEV state is, but I'm sure we're not one <g>. (And I don't believe in leasing, or buying used, since any vehicle I buy I always keep for at least a decade and a half).  So things will have to change pricewise before it could make much sense for me (and that change could definitely include the price of gas sky-rocketing again).

[raadsel]

Right, that's the big issue for me -- we couldn't use an EV for anything other than my tennis "commute" since any other trip we take is at least 120 miles (round trip but no way to charge when we go there).  But I could definitely see an EV replacing our Durango down the road (say three or four years from now, when my wife finally retires).  

 

I don't know what a ZEV state is, but I'm sure we're not one <g>. (And I don't believe in leasing, or buying used, since any vehicle I buy I always keep for at least a decade and a half).  So things will have to change pricewise before it could make much sense for me (and that change could definitely include the price of gas sky-rocketing again).

 

ZEV states are states that require manufacturers to have a percentage of Zero Emissions Vehicles be part of their overall sales in their state. It is basically an outgrowth of the old California emissions standards, which other states have now adopted.

 

From what I have read, driving the C-Max Energi on electric, with electric prices at $0.10 per kWh, will cost under $1 to fully charge --  for 100 miles (roughly 5 charges) it is around $4 for the electricity. These numbers are for the C-Max, for more efficient cars (such as a Volt or Tesla) it can be as low as $2.50 to travel 100 miles.

Edited August 19, 2015 by raadsel

[stevedebi]

Yeah, I guess I'd have to know what the L.A. electric rates are compared to here in central Florida (the closest I could find compared L.A. to Tampa, which had Tampa about 25% higher -- and our rates are higher than Tampa).

 

I'm guessing, offhand (and perhaps not even in the ballpark but perhaps at least playing the same game :>) I'd have to pay close to what you figure you are saving in gas IF gas was $4 a gallon (so right now I'd be losing money driving the Energi, to the same tune as you are saving).  Again, really hard to compare because, as you say, depends on the commute, etc.  One thing for sure: we have no special lanes or other considerations here (given how things are, I'm actually kind of surprised we aren't penalized for trying to save money on gas :>).

Tier 1 is up to 1000KW hours, I think that is 11 cents per hour. Tier 2 is between 1K and 2K, that is 17 cents. Not sure what tier 3 is, maybe 20 cents or so.

 

I calculate based on teir 2. So a L1 charger costs about 1.75 per day for a full charge.

 

EDIT: My break even point is around 50 MPGe - it would be even to just buy gas. I'm at around 65 MPGe lifetime, although I have dropped near 50 at times when I went on a longer trip. But the EV is fun, and I'd probably charge anyway, even if the MPGe dropped lower. At least until rates increase too much. It's nice to know I have options, since the C-Max has an ICE.

Edited August 19, 2015 by stevedebi

[SnowStorm]

Per fueleconomy.gov the Energi uses 37kWh/100 miles, Volt and Tesla use 35 kWh/100 miles.  Using electricity only, there's very little difference between the Energi and the Volt or Tesla.

[hybridbear]

And do I ever want an electric car too!  The decisions about how to drive efficiently would be so much simpler.  And no oil and filters to change!  As to dealers, Tesla may indeed have the right idea.  Get rid of that independent network that supposedly makes its money on "service".

 

What overall mileage do you get in the Fiat - watt-hours per mile?  I've been wondering if I would get significantly better than EPA ratings with an electric car the way I do with the C-Max hybrid.

I bet you could. We exceed the EPA estimates in our Focus Electric. The EPA MPGe numbers translate to ~256 Wh/mi. Wh/mi is the way the Focus Electric reports energy efficiency. Our Lifetime average, 13 months, is 236 Wh/mi. At the end of winter our YTD Wh/mi average was up over 250, but with the summer weather & increased efficiency it has come back down.

 

The only maintenance we do with the FFE is a tire rotation every ~8000 miles. It has been to the dealer once for a bunch of warranty work & will go back again before winter for more warranty work.

 

Official city mileage is 122 MPGe and hwy 108 MPGe (miles-per-gallon-equivalent). Couldn't tell you what the WHM is because my HOA charges a flat monthly fee for EV charging rather than metering.  But I can tell you the smiles-per-watt are off the charts!

 

Scheduled maintenance intervals on this car: show up once a year for tire rotation and a fluid level check. Pretty great.

The Fiat doesn't have any way to track electricity use or energy efficiency on the in-car displays? Our apartment also charges us a fixed rate per month of $40 for the Focus Electric & Fusion Energi combined. We track our monthly electricity use via the car's displays of kWh used on the trip meters. After 1 year with the cars I sent them a report of how many kWh we had used according to cars plus a 20% charging loss/preconditioning factor. At $0.11/kWh the amount we paid & what we used almost exactly matches. Since their power is three-phase commercial their electric rate is lower, closer to $0.08/kWh is what they estimated when we got our Focus Electric.

[SPL Tech]

Yes, all dealers suck, this is not news, and it's not specific to Honda dealers. If you look at the consumer reporting index with regard to the general public's honest perception of those who work in automotive sales and repairs, it is quite low. I think it's just a tad higher than politicians, and about on par with bank executives and oil refinery executives.

[SPL Tech]

Too bad there isn't a website (insert dealer name)_horror_stories.com for you to post that post.  That might get their attention.  

 

Though you might write Honda corporate.  They don't like bad publicity for there Good Car image.  I actually have called them about my Dad's transmission, 2000 Accord, and after some persistence, got them to subsidize a faulty transmission replacement.

 

Marc, your post #10, awesome.

There is. Like a million. Yelp, Google, Trip Reporter, BBB, Rip off report, ect. tons out there. I would start with Yelp.

[SPL Tech]

[HannahWCU]

I always wonder about the WHM is on either electrics or a hybrid like the Energi -- given how much we pay for electricity here (A LOT!) I have a suspicion that in the end it wouldn't be any more cost efficient for me than my C-Max.

 

But having a flat charge for EV charging *could* make it worthwhile, assuming they don't just raise the rates (as HOAs can anytime they damn well choose to do so.  At least the power companies have to go through the pretense of public hearings :>).

 

 

Here is some information on my Focus Electric:

 

My lifetime average (after 11,000+ miles) is 250 Wh/Mi (which, as hybridbear stated, the way the focus reports it).  This works out to 4 miles per kWh.

Last months electricity bill was for $270.09 for 2318 kWh of electricity. This works out to $0.117 per kWh.

So my electricity cost for my Focus last month is ~$0.035 per mile (assuming all charging was completed at home and a 20% overhead for charging).

Compare this to my CMax, for the month of August, fuel cost me on average $0.055/mile. And that is with an average mpg of 40 and average fuel price of $2.187 here in NC.

 

A few things to remember about pure electrics:

Electricity prices don't change much, fuel prices do! 

No noise, bigger deal than you think.

Instant Torque available. makes car feel MUCH peppier than you might think.

No stops at gas stations.  I have not been to a gas station in 3 months!!!

No service needed!  My first scheduled maintenance (other than tires, windshield wipers, etc.) is at 150,000 miles (to replace 2 quarts of coolant that keeps the electronics cool)

 

Sorry about being off topic.

Edited September 11, 2015 by HannahWCU

[stevedebi]

Here is some information on my Focus Electric:

 

....

 

A few things to remember about pure electrics:

Electricity prices don't change much, fuel prices do! 

...

Sorry about being off topic.

Quite different in CA, and likely to increase since the state keeps mandating inefficient "green" energy. My rates here in LA are .14 for the first K, 17 for the second K, and (I think) .22 for tier 3. That's better than some other areas here in SoCal that have reported .33.

[Kelleytoons]

A few things to remember about pure electrics:

Electricity prices don't change much, fuel prices do! 

No noise, bigger deal than you think.

Instant Torque available. makes car feel MUCH peppier than you might think.

No stops at gas stations.  I have not been to a gas station in 3 months!!!

No service needed!  My first scheduled maintenance (other than tires, windshield wipers, etc.) is at 150,000 miles (to replace 2 quarts of coolant that keeps the electronics cool)

 

Sorry about being off topic.

 As I said, the big thing for me is distance -- right now I can't use an EV.  Perhaps when an average trip of 200 miles or so is no big deal then it might be another story, but with no way to charge it for a trip into Orlando I'd be pretty screwed.

 

(But I also haven't been to a gas station in 3 months in my hybrid, so don't brag TOO much -- during the summer I rarely drive more than 300 miles a month.  And the C-Max is very quiet -- never hear it at all myself (of course I also have the windows up all the time here in Florida).

[HotPotato]

Quite different in CA, and likely to increase since the state keeps mandating inefficient "green" energy. My rates here in LA are .14 for the first K, 17 for the second K, and (I think) .22 for tier 3. That's better than some other areas here in SoCal that have reported .33.

 

It's all relative. Gasoline prices in California are double what they are in, say, Louisiana. If electricity prices are double too, that would be appropriate and expected, and electricity would still be the better deal. There's a limited supply of California to go around, and a high demand to live here, so the cost of living is high. 

 

(FWIW, green energy grows less expensive worldwide as it grows less exotic. Per Deutsche Bank (2/27/2015), the ratio of coal based wholesale electricity to solar electricity cost, which was 7:1 four years ago, is now less than 2:1 and could likely approach 1:1 over the next 12-18 months--that is, no cost difference at all between coal, traditionally the cheapest dirtiest fuel, and solar, traditionally the costliest and cleanest.) 

[HannahWCU]

Quite different in CA, and likely to increase since the state keeps mandating inefficient "green" energy. My rates here in LA are .14 for the first K, 17 for the second K, and (I think) .22 for tier 3. That's better than some other areas here in SoCal that have reported .33.

 

I wasn't talkingabout the prices themselves, but more referring to the relative movement of prices.  Gas prices can move quit a bit from month to month, week to week and even day to day. Electricity prices on the other hand, don't move that much.  So the fuel costs of an electric stay fairly constant.  

 

I do agree that electricity prices only go up, but they have nowhere near the volatility of gasoline.

 

 

(But I also haven't been to a gas station in 3 months in my hybrid, so don't brag TOO much -- during the summer I rarely drive more than 300 miles a month.  And the C-Max is very quiet -- never hear it at all myself (of course I also have the windows up all the time here in Florida).

 

That isn't alot of driving, we put 300/week on both the Electric Focus and the CMax!!

Edited September 14, 2015 by HannahWCU

[stevedebi]

It's all relative. Gasoline prices in California are double what they are in, say, Louisiana. If electricity prices are double too, that would be appropriate and expected, and electricity would still be the better deal. There's a limited supply of California to go around, and a high demand to live here, so the cost of living is high. 

 

(FWIW, green energy grows less expensive worldwide as it grows less exotic. Per Deutsche Bank (2/27/2015), the ratio of coal based wholesale electricity to solar electricity cost, which was 7:1 four years ago, is now less than 2:1 and could likely approach 1:1 over the next 12-18 months--that is, no cost difference at all between coal, traditionally the cheapest dirtiest fuel, and solar, traditionally the costliest and cleanest.) 

Everything I've read indicates that the overall cost (including the required backup energy because solar and wind are not consistent) is much higher. I suspect those numbers you quote are only listing the direct cost of the energy, not the cost to the grid. Electrical costs in Germany have gone up dramatically in the "green" experiment.

 

I've lived in Germany - the concept of solar energy is crazy, since they don't really get that many clear days. I always wondered when they took all those postcard pictures - it was cloudy most every day.

 

"The renewable energy surcharge levied on German households and businesses has nearly tripled since 2010 and now accounts for about 18% of a German household's electric bill."

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanys-expensive-gamble-on-renewable-energy-1409106602

 

There are a huge number of articles on the subject.

Edited September 14, 2015 by stevedebi

[SnowStorm]

Glad to see the actual numbers from hybridbear and HannahWCU.  And BTW, discussing the service advantages of electric cars on this topic seems to fit right in as it is the "dealers" that are fighting to prevent Tesla from selling their cars!  Go back and look at the list of "service" items in the OP's first post.  Most of them aren't even in an electric car.  No HannahWCU, you are hardly off topic at all.

[fbov]

Hang on... you're talking apples and oranges here. The automotive dealer associations' opposition to Tesla is far more deeply seated. They have made it illegal for a car manufacturer to sell a car in their state. Since Tesla has no dealerships, they are not allowed to sell the car in that state.

 

Yes, direct-to-consumer sale of new automobiles may be illegal in your state. If that's the case, simply go next door and buy the car.

 

So, I agree it's about money, but not your service dollars.

 

Frank