VW & Audi to recall 500,000 diesels - Software detected, tricked EPA tests

[C-MaxSea]

One article coined the word dieselgate.

 

This post from another forum leads to me to believe this may get a lot bigger.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37715422&postcount=130

 

Would not surprise me at all.  I was shocked by the air pollution we experienced on our last trip across the pond.  My first thought was that it might be an even bigger deal there, and being 'swept under the rug' because of their love affair with diesel.  That might also explain the corporate culture necessary to game our pollution control system so blatantly & callously.

 

At this point I suspect that the EU's existing auto pollution control system is a joke.  I wish the best for VW (owned four, and still swear by Eurovans), but bitterly dislike diesel exhaust.  Glad they have stopped selling their diesel pollution machines until they are defanged !

 

Clean air uber alles,

 

Nick

Edited September 23, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[stevedebi]

That "Das Auto" thing was really starting to get on my nerves.  Can you imagine a commercial for a country, say South Africa and then you see the words "THE COUNTRY".  Please. 

 

Having said that, I think they'll be fine.  But Toyota is going to bump them off the #1 spot for certain. 

My favorite VW commercial was in Germany way back in the '70s. The words "Der Wagon Der Wagon". It means "the car of cars", but looked great in German.

[ptjones]

Would not surprise me at all.  I was shocked by the air pollution we experienced on our last trip across the pond.  My first thought was that it might be an even bigger deal there, and being 'swept under the rug' because of there love affair with diesel.  That might also explain the corporate culture necessary to game our pollution control system so blatantly & callously.

 

At this point I suspect that the EU's existing auto pollution control system is a joke.  I wish the best for VW (owned many, and still swear by Eurovans), but bitterly dislike diesel exhaust.  Glad they have stopped selling their diesel pollution machines until they are defanged !

 

Clean air uber alles,

 

Nick

If they were using used vegetable oil Bio-diesel it would smell like French Fries (Yum!). :lol:    :lol2: I did make Bio-diesel for a few years for my Jetta TDI Wagon and FORD F250 Diesel. :)

 

Paul

[markd]

I read that it effects eleven million vehicles.

[stevedebi]

If they were using used vegetable oil Bio-diesel it would smell like French Fries (Yum!). :lol:    :lol2: I did make Bio-diesel for a few years for my Jetta TDI Wagon and FORD F250 Diesel. :)

 

Paul

The VW TDI engines allow only 5 percent bio diesel. I had stopped on I-40 near Kingman for a good price on diesel last summer, only to find it at 20% bio and cannot be used.

 

Got a nice lunch and a great price on some T-Shirts though. But I had to go on to Kingman to fuel up.

[ptjones]

The VW TDI engines allow only 5 percent bio diesel. I had stopped on I-40 near Kingman for a good price on diesel last summer, only to find it at 20% bio and cannot be used.

 

Got a nice lunch and a great price on some T-Shirts though. But I had to go on to Kingman to fuel up.

I was using up to 30% Biodiesel in my 2003 and it ran fine.  I have seen 15% Biodiesel recently. :)

 

Paul

[stevedebi]

I was using up to 30% Biodiesel in my 2003 and it ran fine.  I have seen 15% Biodiesel recently. :)

 

Paul

Different engine, they changed in 2009, and then again in 2015.

[wab]

This is opening old wounds, reminds me of our 2013 camx.

Ford lost and we lost a lot of money because of 47mpgate.

[cmax-nynj]

This is opening old wounds, reminds me of our 2013 camx.

Ford lost and we lost a lot of money because of 47mpgate.

Difference is, in 2013 gas prices were high therefore Hybrid prices were high too.    Idiots who cannot drive and complain cost us money.  47MPG is achievable by paying attention to the driving technique and grille blocker in the winter.    I did 50+MPG yesterday with no AC; no traffic on a 28 mile trip in NYC.

[plus 3 golfer]

Difference is, in 2013 gas prices were high therefore Hybrid prices were high too.    Idiots who cannot drive and complain cost us money.  47MPG is achievable by paying attention to the driving technique and grille blocker in the winter.    I did 50+MPG yesterday with no AC; no traffic on a 28 mile trip in NYC.

Here we go again. The C-MAX ain't no 47 mpg car per the EPA tests.  Also, apparently everyone should drive like those that get high FE.  It's easy to get 50+ (even 60+).  But some value time more than saving a few $ (especially with gas prices again below $2 a gallon in the Phoenix area). ;)

 

I'm heading out to get a security system battery tested.  I'll take the side streets instead of the freeway and show you what can be done. :)

 

EDIT: RESULTS ARE IN - Just normal driving on side streets, time lights as I always do, coast, accelerate moderately, no AC.  The same trip on the freeway will average about 60+ MPH, get 42-43 mpg and take about 30+ minutes less.  So, what's great about 50+ mpg?  Just have to sacrifice time time for slower speed (which I won't do). ;)   BTW, I took a longer route home to avoid 3 school zones where I had to slow down to 15 mph.

 

To turn this on topic, my 2009 TDI would easily get in the high 50s and mid 40s on the freeway for these trips.

 

Edited September 23, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ptjones]

As I have said before, the driver decides what FE they want to get and drives accordingly.  Drivers that aren't that concerned about FE get 38-40mpg and drivers that make it a challenge get 47-55mpg.  It helps not to be in a hurry for sure.  EPA numbers seem to reflect FE for drivers that don't make an effort to use the advantages of a Hybrid. IMHO :) 

 

Paul 

[fbov]

... I did make Bio-diesel for a few years for my Jetta TDI Wagon and FORD F250 Diesel....

Why am I not surprised?

 

This is opening old wounds, reminds me of our 2013 camx.

Ford lost and we lost a lot of money because of 47mpgate.

And the thread derails... but this brings up an interesting point.

 

What are VW's remediation options?

 

Ford chose the rebate route. Hyundai chose the annual gas card route. Neither did anything non-conforming to the car, their "issues" only affected the Monroney sticker, making a monetary remediation fully effective.

 

VW has hardware issues, modes in their firmware that enable the car to operate in non-conforming emission modes. A software change, to eliminate the switching option, changes nothing because software can be unchanged. Will the EPA require hardware retrofits to eliminate the capability?

 

Then there's the class action suit from owners due to loss of value... very different from Ford as this was design intent.

 

Will there be a second class-action suit resulting from the hardware remediation? Will the Sportwagon still be sporty when it's no longer belching combustion byproducts?

 

As I have said before, the driver decides what FE they want to get and drives accordingly.

Hogwash.

 

Last I checked, Nature decides what the weather will be today, and that choice severely limits the driver's FE options in my estimation. In February, I do not see 40MPG on the same roads that crack 60mpg on occasion... A heavy rain is a good 20% hit. All bets are off on snowy roads. You can see it in our Fuelly data...

 

Yours would be a nice sinus rhythm on an EKG (and there's a subtle rising trend even now... so much for HVB issues). Mine is more of a low frequency wave....

[kc1174]

As someone who switched from a 2013 C-Max to an Audi A3 TDI in February, all I can say is bollocks. Look it up lol At least I still have my gaspods :)

[C-MaxSea]

Paul is correct:  Driver.  Frank is correct:  Nature.  However, it has never been one or the other - It has always been a combination of those factors (& others) governing C-Max MPGs.  Where you live matters, How you drive matters. (not to mention distances............)  As Paul notes, many don't even taste the C-Max hybrid sweetness !

 

Happily driving safely at speed limits in temperate weather and getting 47ish mpgs,

 

Nick

 

(and all I hoped for / anticipated / expected to drive for was 40 mpg's)

Edited September 23, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[Adrian_L]

Agreed------to a point.  If your passenger's heads snap back every time you accelerate from a stop sign---you're going to get crappy MPGs.  Similarly if you drive 90 mph on the motorway---you're going to get crappy MPGs. 

 

I get 47 all day long in the city simply by avoiding lead foot driving.  However, that number will plummet in the winter.

 

(Like Nick I would have been ecstatic with 40 mpg --- especially considering my camper van gets about 10)

Edited September 23, 2015 by Adrian_L

[C-MaxSea]

Agreed------to a point.  If your passenger's heads snap back every time you accelerate from a stop sign---you're going to get crappy MPGs.  Similarly if you drive 90 mph on the motorway---you're going to get crappy MPGs. 

 

 

Indeed, that is what is meant by "Driver".  We do all agree, so how about we all ease up on the C-Max MPG conversation, and get back to the thread topic - VW diesels !  11 million 'and counting'; additional manufacturers ?, 'stateside' vs. global ?................  Noted in article this morning that this 'defeat device' technology began 10++ years ago, and resulted in a 1 billion dollar settlement against several diesel manufacturers here in the USA.

Edited September 23, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[ptjones]

 

Frank "Last I checked, Nature decides what the weather will be today, and that choice severely limits the driver's FE options in my estimation. In February, I do not see 40MPG on the same roads that crack 60mpg on occasion... A heavy rain is a good 20% hit. All bets are off on snowy roads. You can see it in our Fuelly data...

 

Yours would be a nice sinus rhythm on an EKG (and there's a subtle rising trend even now... so much for HVB issues). Mine is more of a low frequency wave...."

You are right about the weather and you don't have control over that unless you move to warmer climate. Not practicable for most members. ;)   I didn't include weather in my statement, because there is little you can do about it.  ICE Block Heater would help in winter time for sure, but that can be a real job to do. :)

 

Paul 

Edited September 27, 2015 by ptjones

[cmax-nynj]

Cold weather affects all Hybrids' FE.  It is worse for the CMax with the lack of a grille blocker.  I made my own using a few dollars of foam material.

[Kelleytoons]

Having said that, I think they'll be fine.

 

Looks not.  This is going to have ramifications FAR beyond VW (many analysts are saying it could be death knell for diesels -- at the very least VW is going to axe MANY folks over this: their CEO is only the first).

 

Kind of makes you wonder who else will get caught (and I suspect most of you aren't old enough to remember, but this reminds me a GREAT deal of the cigarette companies and their denial of all the cancer reports).

[C-MaxSea]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/09/24/german-ministers-reportedly-were-warned-vw-test-beating-software/

http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/sep/24/volkswagen-scandal-vw-germany-counts-cost-of-crisis-after-ceo-quits-live-updates

 

On the one hand:  BMW under suspicion ................German government ministers aware :pimp:...........................  Scape goats / 'those in charge' will be sacrificed to appease the masses ...............................

 

On the other hand - 'No problem'.  VW / diesel engines (even polluting ones) will easily weather the storm - 'darling' industries / companies are always rescued.

 

The diesel auto & truck pollution in Europe (& here) continues unabated for now   :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:    - lungs and human health be ____d. ;)  :shrug: :rant2:

 

Nick

Edited September 24, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[raadsel]

If it is true that some German Ministers knew about the problem and did nothing, I'm thinking that could bring down the German government (a call for new elections). Environmentalism is much bigger in Europe than the US; and the Green Party currently holds about 10% of government elective positions. With this effecting 11 million VW cars worldwide, and not just 500,000 in the US, I can't see the German people happy with this. It will get even worse if other German manufacturers have also been cheating.

 

As for the pollution, I'm not sure what more can be done, at least for the moment. You can't really ban these cars from being driven because of the harm it would cause on the innocent owners of those vehicles. At least in the US (and I would assume in other countries), VW is no longer selling diesel cars. The question will be how quickly can VW accomplish the recall on those 11 million vehicles. And maybe the more interesting question, how will it be insured these recalls are actually done. I think this may be the larger issue -- if you owned a VW diesel would you go in for the recall voluntarily, knowing it will reduce your power and fuel economy. I suspect some type of "incentive" is required to ensure people get the recall done; whether a positive incentive, such as VW paying those for the reduced economy, or punitive, such as the government requiring the recall to be done before the car can have it's registration renewed.

[stevedebi]

I just read a newspaper article that said VW has implemented a fix in the 2016 diesels, but they are still being held at the port because the fixes have not been tested. They would retrofit these fixes to earlier models. I presume that means for the AdBlue models, but the article wasn't that specific.

[wab]

If it is true that some German Ministers knew about the problem and did nothing, I'm thinking that could bring down the German government (a call for new elections). Environmentalism is much bigger in Europe than the US; and the Green Party currently holds about 10% of government elective positions. With this effecting 11 million VW cars worldwide, and not just 500,000 in the US, I can't see the German people happy with this. It will get even worse if other German manufacturers have also been cheating.

 

As for the pollution, I'm not sure what more can be done, at least for the moment. You can't really ban these cars from being driven because of the harm it would cause on the innocent owners of those vehicles. At least in the US (and I would assume in other countries), VW is no longer selling diesel cars. The question will be how quickly can VW accomplish the recall on those 11 million vehicles. And maybe the more interesting question, how will it be insured these recalls are actually done. I think this may be the larger issue -- if you owned a VW diesel would you go in for the recall voluntarily, knowing it will reduce your power and fuel economy. I suspect some type of "incentive" is required to ensure people get the recall done; whether a positive incentive, such as VW paying those for the reduced economy, or punitive, such as the government requiring the recall to be done before the car can have it's registration renewed.

 

"You can't really ban these cars from being driven because of the harm it would cause on the innocent owners of those vehicles."

 

States that do an emission test (CA,TX,etc) every year will quickly get them off the street.

In TX no inspection ='s no license plate.

[raadsel]

 

"You can't really ban these cars from being driven because of the harm it would cause on the innocent owners of those vehicles."

 

States that do an emission test (CA,TX,etc) every year will quickly get them off the street.

In TX no inspection ='s no license plate.

 

Except they pass the emissions testing, due to the fraudulent software. Though my point was that the US isn't going to make people quit driving their TDIs prior to VW rolling out a "fix", since the people who would be punished did not do the crime.

 

The bigger issue, at least as I see it, are those that refuse to get the recall performed because they don't want to take the power and/or MPG hit to their diesel car. Again, the current tests used will not catch these people, since the software is designed to kick in if it detects an emissions test. While there are ways to ensure it is done, such as requiring TDI owners to provide evidence that the recall was performed, that requires states to actually pass a law/regulation (and possibly pay extra money) to enforce that the recalls are performed. I suppose there might also be ways to change the testing procedure, in such a way the car does not recognize it is being tested, but that would likely be an expensive process.

[obob]

Here is my theory when trying to think of why they did this. I do this to kind of make sense of things and it is not really based on anything real other than I have worked in engineering environments.

 

Here are some assumptions that I am not sure are true but seem to makes sense and have some support in the facts.

 

1. Manufacturers need to have meet an average mpg for all the cars they sell that is high. Some car manufactures meet this number with small light cars that have little or negative profit margin so they can sell the higher margin cars. Some do it with hybrids which also probably have a low margin.

 

2. Diesel pollution needed to be reduced. This was extremely bad for VW for the diesel was their go to car to get their average mpg for all cars up. They did not have the hybrid or small cheap car so they could still sell the high margin gas guzzler cars. Plus they own Porche which also kind of depended on VW to up the average mpg.

 

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-automakers-will-meet-2016-cafe-standards

 

 

3. They felt unfairly affected so they decided to “bend” the rules to a new level to kind of even out how they were unfairly singled out, and perhaps felt kind of justified. They might have figured all the automakers bend the rules and we have to compete against them. We are not going to be legislated out of our present leadership. (they kind of feared extinction)

 

4. Then the marketing people got into the act and sold the public on this clean diesel thing that broke trust which now makes it a felony rather than a big misdemeanor. They fulfilled a deep sincere longing for responsible environmental consciousness for people with a dirty car that they sold as responsible and environmentally consciousness.

 

Might I add that I see parallels between this and athletic competitors using performance enhancing drugs to compensate for seemingly being beat out of competition by old age or lack of talent or lack of focus or lack of keeping up with the Jones' performance enhancing drugs.

 

I also see parallels in social interaction but I won't go into that.

Edited September 25, 2015 by obob