VW & Audi to recall 500,000 diesels - Software detected, tricked EPA tests

[Redshift]

My wife has a 2014 Passat TDI. She is a bit worried. Obviously the cars can pass emissions, because they do when connected. I suspect they will simply enable the controls continuously, probably with some performance hit. With her TDI, it could lose 20% of it's engine power and still be vastly superior to a gas car. My question is what will happen to the MPG, which is currently about 43 on her daily commute.

If it lost 20% power I don't think it would be "vastly" better than a gas car. The diesels only get a couple of more mpg than a hybrid so a 20% loss would be a big hit.

[C-MaxSea]

Drip, drip, drip .............

Gasoline engines & CO2 emissions:

http://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2015/11/04/volkswagen-shares-fall-after-new-emissions-revelation

 

Stop sale Porsche & Audi:  more models/years than expected

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/foreign/2015/11/04/volkswagen-stop-sale/75149606/

 

"The scandal that keeps on giving":

http://uk.reuters.com/video/2015/11/04/vw-shares-sink-on-new-scandal-revelation?videoId=366188455&videoChannel=78

 

Fuel use understated:

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/03/germanys-vw-new-problems-with-800000-vehicles.html

 

Yadda, yadda, yadda .............

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/03/vw-c02-emmission-problems-800000-vehicles

Edited November 4, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[stevedebi]

If it lost 20% power I don't think it would be "vastly" better than a gas car. The diesels only get a couple of more mpg than a hybrid so a 20% loss would be a big hit.

Based on my driving, I stand by that statement. I own a hybrid, and would not attempt to equate the Passat with one. It is far more comfortable, more maneuverable, has a huge trunk capacity, is not subject to MPG loss in colder weather, and at 20% power loss would still outrun a hybrid on the highway. For what it delivers, I think it is superior, and would still be superior with a power loss.

 

According to the letters we have received from VW, the loss will be in high end speed, not MPG or power. But time will tell.

Edited November 4, 2015 by stevedebi

[ptjones]

Based on my driving, I stand by that statement. I own a hybrid, and would not attempt to equate the Passat with one. It is far more comfortable, more maneuverable, has a huge trunk capacity, is not subject to MPG loss in colder weather, and at 20% power loss would still outrun a hybrid on the highway. For what it delivers, I think it is superior, and would still be superior with a power loss.

 

According to the letters we have received from VW, the loss will be in high end speed, not MPG or power. But time will tell.

I don't think that makes sense, why would they take the risk of penalties for just a loss in top speed.  Sounds like they aren't telling the truth yet, how stupid is that!  The only reason that makes sense is FE to risk so much. IMO ;)  PS I think CMAX Hybrid has very good acceleration and handling performance. IMHO  :shift:

 

Paul

[obob]

I don't think that makes sense, why would they take the risk of penalties for just a loss in top speed.  Sounds like they aren't telling the truth yet, how stupid is that!  The only reason that makes sense is FE to risk so much. IMO ;)  PS I think CMAX Hybrid has very good acceleration and handling performance. IMHO  :shift:

 

Paul

 

If it were just top speed I would think the programming would only turn on the pollution above a certain speed.

[obob]

One suspicion that I have is that VW is stalling.  They need the penalties to be smoldered rather than a hot burn.  They need to give the lawyers time to give them lots of time.  They want to spread payments over lots of time too after getting the penalties. 

[ptjones]

I hear India is getting involved Today too! :)

 

Paul

[stevedebi]

I don't think that makes sense, why would they take the risk of penalties for just a loss in top speed.  Sounds like they aren't telling the truth yet, how stupid is that!  The only reason that makes sense is FE to risk so much. IMO ;)  PS I think CMAX Hybrid has very good acceleration and handling performance. IMHO  :shift:

 

Paul

Hey, I don't make this stuff up, I can only pass on what I've been told. I have a Passat though, which alread has urea injection. I suspect they simply used the same software cheat that started in the Jetta (lacks injection). I think they could have made the other models pass fairly easily, but the "cheat" was common code at VW.

[ptjones]

Hey, I don't make this stuff up, I can only pass on what I've been told. I have a Passat though, which alread has urea injection. I suspect they simply used the same software cheat that started in the Jetta (lacks injection). I think they could have made the other models pass fairly easily, but the "cheat" was common code at VW.

 

Auto Manufacturers BSing the the public is pretty normal it would seem to me. It has happened to us a number of times. ;)

 

Paul

[kostby]

;)

My armchair anarchist take on all this is that vehicle emissions standards are very close to requiring that the air exiting any internal combustion engine must be cleaner than the air that went in.

 

 

Are there real measurable long-term health consequences caused by excessive pollution in all forms?

Absolutely.

 

Did Europe create economic policies favoring diesel-powered vehicles before the full health effects of inhaling concentrated nitrogen oxides from diesel exhaust were known?

Possibly.

 

Were government bureaucrats inhaling nitrous oxide when they made current vehicle emissions standards?

Probably.

 

One way to deal with governments who churn endlessly to create mindless policies and needless layers of conflicting regulations and use them to thus legitimize ever growing government bureaucracies, to allegedly ensure compliance, without regard for the drag on the GDP that all this creates, the actual time and testing required to develop the precise technology needed, the actual measurable health benefits to the population, and cost of the arcane solutions eventually concocted to meet the requirements...

is to "game" the system that created them.

 

And that's what VW apparently did.

Successfully.

For years.

 

Eventually the pendulum of over-reaching over-regulation by political figureheads, plutocrats and their government shills may swing the opposite direction.

In the best case scenario, there will still be humans alive to see it and enjoy it.  :yahoo:

Edited November 5, 2015 by kostby

[ptjones]

It would have been alot cheaper to use windmills to blow away the pollutants. LOL :) 

 

Paul 

[fbov]

Not picking on Paul, but...

I don't think that makes sense, why would they take the risk of penalties for just a loss in top speed.  ... The only reason that makes sense is FE to risk so much.

There's a lot more going on with this second round of revelations; it's about public policy for managing environmental carbon load, the Kyoto Protocol

 

But first, top speed is more important than FE in Germany, and so Europe in general. German engineering is partly prized due to the historical lack of speed limits on the Autobahn. That spreads to other countries in a form of international "keeping up with the Jones'." Everyone wants the diesel that can do 127 MPH (or 200+ KPH) more than one that can't. Top speed is all about power at high RPM. One might not notice in the US, but Germany?

 

Next is that the latest round of revelations are hitting EU the way NOx hit the US. US public environmental policy is pollution-centric, while the EU's is carbon-centric. Car makers are taxed based on the carbon emissions estimates for their cars. VW gained significant economic advantage by rigging their CO2 emissions, across the board; this is not a "diesel" issue. The $2B this will cost VW is partly back taxes, a particularly heinous offense for a company owned by the local government.

 

So, you can add TAX CHEAT to the list of VW's offenses, and this is one that's not likely to be blamed on a small group of engineers. They became the largest car company in the world dishonestly, but can't be punished for fear of ruining the Lower Saxony economy, much less the impact on Lower Saxony's tax revenue.

 

It would have been alot cheaper to use windmills to blow away the pollutants.

Ah, the "law" of infinite dilution. No one will notice just a little more poison... Hasn't worked since the days of the Model T. I remember the smog dome over Philadelphia as a child. It wasn't a California issue, just worse in the LA basin.

 

And remember, US emission laws came hot on the heels of the elimination of tetraethyl lead from gasoline. Lead is poison, and when concentrated in urban areas, the health effects were significant... once the news got out. Oil companies made lots of money on lead, car companies liked what lead anti-knock additives did for compression, so the research was buried... Kostby's armchair anarchist may want to consider that point.

 

The EPA was founded in a climate of corporate opposition to any action, but the lead cover-up had come out, and public opinion was firmly in the environmental camp, so things passed. 1970 saw creation of the EPA, the Clean Air Act and Lead-based Paint Poisoning Prevention Act. No law was needed for unleaded gasoline, per se, as the only option for passing the CAA - catalytic conversion - was poisoned by lead as well as humans.  

 

PS I think CMAX Hybrid has very good acceleration and handling performance. IMHO 

I'm dubious of Steve's claim too... but I'm not racing for pink slips! 

 

That said, it would be perfectly consistent for VW to set an expectation with customers that there will be a change but they won't notice. Top speed is the perfect decoy, as it's going to be really obvious to drivers on roads with open speed limits (or not), but only if they actually drive that fast. Acceleration will be reduced, but ironically, city FE should improve with elimination of the overly-rich run mode.

 

It will be interesting to see, because you know someone in the enthusiast press will instrument a couple cars, one with, one without the fix, and see what really happens. When the fix comes out...

 

HAve fun,

Frank

Edited November 6, 2015 by fbov

[stevedebi]

Not picking on Paul, but...

There's a lot more going on with this second round of revelations; it's about public policy for managing environmental carbon load, the Kyoto Protocol

 

But first, top speed is more important than FE in Germany, and so Europe in general. German engineering is partly prized due to the historical lack of speed limits on the Autobahn. That spreads to other countries in a form of international "keeping up with the Jones'." Everyone wants the diesel that can do 127 MPH (or 200+ KPH) more than one that can't. Top speed is all about power at high RPM. One might not notice in the US, but Germany?

 

Next is that the latest round of revelations are hitting EU the way NOx hit the US. US public environmental policy is pollution-centric, while the EU's is carbon-centric. Car makers are taxed based on the carbon emissions estimates for their cars. VW gained significant economic advantage by rigging their CO2 emissions, across the board; this is not a "diesel" issue. The $2B this will cost VW is partly back taxes, a particularly heinous offense for a company owned by the local government.

 

So, you can add TAX CHEAT to the list of VW's offenses, and this is one that's not likely to be blamed on a small group of engineers. They became the largest car company in the world dishonestly, but can't be punished for fear of ruining the Lower Saxony economy, much less the impact on Lower Saxony's tax revenue.

 

Ah, the "law" of infinite dilution. No one will notice just a little more poison... Hasn't worked since the days of the Model T. I remember the smog dome over Philadelphia as a child. It wasn't a California issue, just worse in the LA basin.

 

And remember, US emission laws came hot on the heels of the elimination of tetraethyl lead from gasoline. Lead is poison, and when concentrated in urban areas, the health effects were significant... once the news got out. Oil companies made lots of money on lead, car companies liked what lead anti-knock additives did for compression, so the research was buried... Kostby's armchair anarchist may want to consider that point.

 

The EPA was founded in a climate of corporate opposition to any action, but the lead cover-up had come out, and public opinion was firmly in the environmental camp, so things passed. 1970 saw creation of the EPA, the Clean Air Act and Lead-based Paint Poisoning Prevention Act. No law was needed for unleaded gasoline, per se, as the only option for passing the CAA - catalytic conversion - was poisoned by lead as well as humans.  

 

I'm dubious of Steve's claim too... but I'm not racing for pink slips! 

 

That said, it would be perfectly consistent for VW to set an expectation with customers that there will be a change but they won't notice. Top speed is the perfect decoy, as it's going to be really obvious to drivers on roads with open speed limits (or not), but only if they actually drive that fast. Acceleration will be reduced, but ironically, city FE should improve with elimination of the overly-rich run mode.

 

It will be interesting to see, because you know someone in the enthusiast press will instrument a couple cars, one with, one without the fix, and see what really happens. When the fix comes out...

 

HAve fun,

Frank

I'm not holding my breath here. It will be very interesting to see what their fix for the Passat will do. But the wife is going to be very upset at any significant loss of MPG or power. She is very proud of her driving, always getting above 40 MPG.

[ptjones]

I'm not holding my breath here. It will be very interesting to see what their fix for the Passat will do. But the wife is going to be very upset at any significant loss of MPG or power. She is very proud of her driving, always getting above 40 MPG.

She must be doing mainly HWY driving, my Jetta Wagon only got 36-38mpg City and Passat gets less MPG's than a Jetta TDI in my experience. :)

 

Frank I lived in SoCal in the 70's and wasn't crazy about the SMOG, but the best solution for SMOG was the Santa Ana Winds, LOL

 

I'm a big Green Plant Supporter, Plants LOVE More Carbon dioxide, the more the merrier !  BTW last week there was a story about Dinosaur's had 4 to 6 times as much CO2  and only a little warmer, They weren't very happy about the tropics. LOL :lol:

 

Paul

[stevedebi]

She must be doing mainly HWY driving, my Jetta Wagon only got 36-38mpg City and Passat gets less MPG's than a Jetta TDI in my experience. :)

 

Frank I lived in SoCal in the 70's and wasn't crazy about the SMOG, but the best solution for SMOG was the Santa Ana Winds, LOL

 

I'm a big Green Plant Supporter, Plants LOVE More Carbon dioxide, the more the merrier !  BTW last week there was a story about Dinosaur's had 4 to 6 times as much CO2  and only a little warmer, They weren't very happy about the tropics. LOL :lol:

 

Paul

Yep, she has a 24 mile commute, about 4 miles to the freeway, and 1 mile from the freeway to work. I believe we see around 32 in pure town driving.

[wab]

Does this sound familiar OR what.

 

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/11/exclusive-volkswagen-to-announce-tdi-goodwill-program-next-week/

"Volkswagen of America, in a bid to regain the trust of current diesel owners, will announce a prepaid card campaign on November 9, TTAC has learned.
The program, detailed to dealers Thursday in preparation of its public announcement, is aimed at current owners of affected TDI models regardless of whether they bought their car new or used.
Two prepaid cards will be offered to those TDI owners. The first one will be for $500 and has no restrictions on where it can be used. The second, which may be valued between $500 and $750, will be limited to use at Volkswagen dealerships.
According to our tipster, owners of affected models will need to visit their local Volkswagen dealership with proof of vehicle ownership to activate the prepaid cards.
Owners can find out if they qualify for the “TDI Goodwill Program” by going to www.vwdieselinfo.com and doing a VIN lookup on or after November 9. If they qualify, owners will then be asked to register to receive updates regarding future developments on their diesel vehicles.
The program is expected to apply only to four-cylinder diesels for now, though it could be expanded to 3-liter V-6 diesels later.
Representatives for Volkswagen of America could not be reached for comment.
The additional cash could be a plus for those looking to stay with the brand but get away from their diesel cars. Volkswagen announced October 31 that they would subsidize dealers to take in TDI vehicles on trade at pre-crisis valuations, on top of a $2,000 TDI owner loyalty discount announced October 2."

Edited November 7, 2015 by wab

[C-MaxSea]

Indeed some monetary familiarity; but corporate miscues radically different in scale in the big picture (hmmm ice cube vs small ice berg perhaps) - especially since the fundamental issue with VW is emissions & human health.

 

Don’t like that they mess with cards, and really don’t like that the larger ‘half’ ($500-$750) can only be used at the dealership, that stinks.

 

Nick

Edited November 8, 2015 by C-MaxSea

[fbov]

This "card" strategy makes perfect sense.

- use a medium (pre-paid card) that has a high inherent staleness rate. Uncashed cards cost you nothing!

- offer a larger amount if you can insure you'll get all the money back.

 

That last bit would really rankle owners, if not for the high maintenance costs of a VW diesel. It might be the safest option...

...last week there was a story about Dinosaur's had 4 to 6 times as much CO2  and only a little warmer, They weren't very happy about the tropics.

Considering the majority of dinosaurs are believe to have been cold-blooded, this is one way they would not have been disadvantaged against smaller, warm-blooded animals. Plants also thrived, resulting in very lush vegetation that, when buried long enough, will become fossil fuel. Thankfully, the vast majority of the Earth's CO2 is bound in rocks, where we silly humans can't let it out. Using chalk on a slate is fine for the environment, burning it, not so much.

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[plus 3 golfer]

I disagree, I don't think it is that easy, particularly if you have private companies doing the testing rather than the government. First, you have to trust the people doing the emissions checks, that they are actually asking for the paperwork. Since many of the emissions testing places I've been use low paid employees, I'm not sure how many will even stop and think they need to ask for proof the recall work has done. Alternately, the dealership has to provide the documentation to the state, with the state ensuring they update the various cars records and track cars that don't have the recall completed. You also have to have changes in the registration/testing software so there is a field that tracks if the recall has been done. There is also the issue if the owner changes states.

 

At the very minimum it requires changes in regulations and updating their software. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. My personal thought, the absolute "best" fix is for the government to require VW to buy back all the vehicles -- and that may be cheaper overall for VW, as well. This way there is no issue trying to track what vehicles have been "fixed." The only issue then is ensuring current VW owners don't lose money on their vehicle, that they are able to replace their VW diesel with a comparable vehicle.

Just saw the quote below in a Ford  CSP.  It appears that CA and MA have provisions to require certification from manufacturers for emissions recall.  So no proof of repairs being done, no vehicle registration renewal. Based on VW data submitted to NHTSA of Jetta TDI sales data by states for MY 2009 through about 1/4 of MY 2012 (about 139,000 vehicles total), CA and MA account for about 17% of those sales.  So if we apply the 17% to the 500,000 affected VW vehicles, we can assume that there are validation procedures in place to cover around 85,000 of the 500,000.  Again, there may be states with no or limited emissions testing (map I provided earlier) that may do nothing. 

 

"The State of California and the Commonwealth of Massachusetts require the completion of emission recall repairs prior to vehicle registration renewal. For vehicles registered in these states, please provide the owner with a Vehicle Emission Recall Proof of Correction certificate after the repair has been performed."

[Automate]

Volkswagen develops quick fix for European diesels

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/11/25/volkswagen-develops-quick-fix-for-european-diesels/

 

Looks too simple.  We will have to see if the EPA approves.

[C-MaxSea]

 

 

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-01-04/justice-department-sues-vw-for-alleged-emissions-deception

[stevedebi]

Just a note here. I just put in for my 1K (two 500 gift cards) that VW is giving out as a "goodwill" gesture.

[obob]

As I see it what VW did is more like the banking crisis - big systemic problem.  

 

Perhaps other automakers could sue VW for cheating them out of sales.

          https://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/california-vw-dealers/volkswagen-lawsuit-vw-recall-21135.html#.VowFuVQrK5c

          " One lawyer who represents dealerships expects dealers to file a class-action lawsuit - soon."

Perhaps dealers can sue VW.

Perhaps VW dealer employees that are layed off can sue VW.

Or VW employees in Germany that are layed off can sue the company. ( So far I haven't heard of layoffs but it could happen )

Perhaps individual employees can be sued.  (not surprised at lack of cooperation in the investigation.)

Perhaps cities can sue VW for air problems.

            http://fortune.com/2015/09/30/this-houston-attorney-is-suing-volkswagen-for-100-million/

 

Perhaps individuals with health problems can sue them.

 

And of course the car owners and EPA who are already suing.

 

Lots of lawyers getting work here and it may not be settled for a long long long time.

 

 

Lots of google hits on "VW sue"

 

 

http://www.timesfreepress.com/cartoons/2016/jan/05/volkswagen/2350/

Edited January 6, 2016 by obob

[Telesrjyje]

You mean after short only software RS232 causing problem...hardware usart using RXint works fine?

[ptjones]

You mean after short only software RS232 causing problem...hardware usart using RXint works fine?

Your C-MAX is 2019? Does this mean you don't have it yet and it probably won't be a Hybrid? :headscratch:

 

Paul