Change to 16x6.5 wheels, cheap?

[okashira]

I'd like to change my Energi factory wheels to a set of 16x6.5 wheels. Here's why:

• 205/60/16 tires are WAY cheaper and more common, and they are the same size for odometer/gear ratio
• The new Nexen N Blue EV tires are only available in this size, and they are supposed to be the best for ULRR (and they're like 1/2 the price of comparable 225/50/17 tires)
• Overall better and cheaper tire availability
• Less rolling resistance and drag due to smaller (thinner) tire
• Slightly better ride quality, NVH and vehicle wear due to a larger sidewall tire

Factory C-MAX wheels are +55 offset and 63.4mm/63.5mm center bore and 5x108mm bolt pattern. This means we need wheels with these specs or close to.

 

I understand the downsides of a thinner tire. I don't carry much weight and I'll be doing weight reduction on my Energi so it's a non-issue for me.

 

 

The problem is, finding the wheels for CHEAP and reasonably lightweight (i.e. OEM used, or really common used)

Any ideas or comments?

[homestead]

You mentioned cheaper tires but what does a set of 4 16x6.5 wheels cost?

How expensive are they?

[WNY]

I did a lot of research on different wheels/tires (especially for winter tires) and others probably other people have too. Some sizes/combination are more expensive.

by going +1 or +2 or -1 -2 in sizes, that can make a big difference in price. I went with 215/55/17 snow tires, which were $30/ea cheaper then the stock size. 

 

Just keep your overall diameter the same or as close to the same (within 1/4" or so). 

 

Tire Rack has a good sizing calculator online. 

 

I;ve see the stock tires (Michelin 225/50/17) around $165-$175/ea online

I'm, putting my stock tires on new aftermarket rims for the summer and keep the snows on the factory tires. 
I found these rims closeout on TireRack for $119/ea. 
 

Edited December 5, 2015 by WNY

[obob]

I'd like to change my Energi factory wheels to a set of 16x6.5 wheels. Here's why:

• 205/60/16 tires are WAY cheaper and more common, and they are the same size for odometer/gear ratio
• The new Nexen N Blue EV tires are only available in this size, and they are supposed to be the best for ULRR (and they're like 1/2 the price of comparable 225/50/17 tires)
• Overall better and cheaper tire availability
• Less rolling resistance and drag due to smaller (thinner) tire
• Slightly better ride quality, NVH and vehicle wear due to a larger sidewall tire

Factory C-MAX wheels are +55 offset and 63.4mm/63.5mm center bore and 5x108mm bolt pattern. This means we need wheels with these specs or close to.

 

I understand the downsides of a thinner tire. I don't carry much weight and I'll be doing weight reduction on my Energi so it's a non-issue for me.

 

 

The problem is, finding the wheels for CHEAP and reasonably lightweight (i.e. OEM used, or really common used)

Any ideas or comments?

 

I would keep a look out on craigslist and ebay for used.  It would probably good to know what cars come standard with the rims you are looking for to help with the search.    Though I have never bought rims, a lot of the listings on ebay are people that want to get top dollar and are willing to be patient.  But some are from people that just want to get rid of the stuff.  Craigslist usually has great deals from people that want to get rid of stuff but that could be tough to get what you want.  I just took a look and saw 4 rims that probably won't fit for $100 (https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/wto/5306832527.html)

 

I liked the idea for I don't need the sporty performance.  And with the condition of the roads and all the manholes on them I also would think the ride would be better.

 

Keep in mind you need handle the pressure sensors in the wheels.

Edited December 5, 2015 by obob

[okashira]

I would keep a look out on craigslist and ebay for used.  It would probably good to know what cars come standard with the rims you are looking for to help with the search.    Though I have never bought rims, a lot of the listings on ebay are people that want to get top dollar and are willing to be patient.  But some are from people that just want to get rid of the stuff.  Craigslist usually has great deals from people that want to get rid of stuff but that could be tough to get what you want.  I just took a look and saw 4 rims that probably won't fit for $100 (https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/wto/5306832527.html)

 

I liked the idea for I don't need the sporty performance.  And with the condition of the roads and all the manholes on them I also would think the ride would be better.

 

Keep in mind you need handle the pressure sensors in the wheels.

YEs this is exactly what I am looking for, some OEM wheels for cheap.

 

I think they need to be Ford, Jaguar or Volvo. They have matching bolt pattern and centerbore.

 

I am gonna consider 2012+ Focus SE wheels. They are 16x7, should be able to handle 205/60/16 okay.

[cmax-nynj]

I think the stock 225 width LRR tires already lack adequate grip especially under emergency braking.  Going with an even lower RR tires and width decrease may make matter worse.

[fbov]

I'd like to change my Energi factory wheels to a set of 16x6.5 wheels. ...

Factory C-MAX wheels are +55 offset and 63.4mm/63.5mm center bore and 5x108mm bolt pattern. ...

Good set of specs; not everyone gets the center bore, and it's the most important. I avoid wheels that require a spacer to achieve the correct center bore, as spacers get lost, and without them, the wheel will never balance. I like the idea of finding Ford wheels for that reason.

 

Be aware that offset is a function of wheel width. That's +55 from the center plane of a 7" wheel. On a 6.5" wheel, a +55 offset will pull the wheel in 1/4" from stock, while giving 1/4" more clearance to the strut.

 

• 205/60/16 tires are WAY cheaper and more common, and they are the same size for odometer/gear ratio
• The new Nexen N Blue EV tires are only available in this size, and they are supposed to be the best for ULRR (and they're like 1/2 the price of comparable 225/50/17 tires)
• Overall better and cheaper tire availability
• Less rolling resistance and drag due to smaller (thinner) tire
• Slightly better ride quality, NVH and vehicle wear due to a larger sidewall tire...

...I understand the downsides of a thinner tire. I don't carry much weight and I'll be doing weight reduction on my Energi so it's a non-issue for me....

This is where you're missing a few things. If you like the Nexen N Blue's, use the 215/55-17 on stock rims for a best-fit option. Exactly the same 93V rating as OEM. I'll grant you don't need a V-speed rating, but you do need the load capacity.

 

The 205/60-16 is a 91H rating, and 77lb. lower load rating. It would be a very bad idea to reduce the tires' load capacity 300 lb. in the variant with a weight problem. This leads to things like loss of insurance coverage when you have an accident. What if your insurance company finds out you ran undersize tires and had a blowout? What if the guy you hit finds out, or his lawyer.... This is a real "better safe than sorry" issue.

 

 That assumes that anyone would sell them to you. Tire Rack will not ship this tire for this car. You'll have to mislead them.

 

Or find a dealer that carries the right size.... It would be very interesting to hear from users of other tires. Just find one that fits; Tire Rack is servicing the Kia EV OEM demand with the 205/60.

 

I think the stock 225 width LRR tires already lack adequate grip especially under emergency braking.  Going with an even lower RR tires and width decrease may make matter worse.

Then you want a narrower tire.

 

For a given tire pressure and axel load, the contact patch of a tire is constant. It's due to Pascal's Law, which states that:

force = pressure x area

 

A 185/65 will contact the same area as a 235/50, but one patch will be 6.2" wide, the other 8.2" wide (assuming the full tread width is in contact). Since the contact area is the same, the wider tire can only be in contact with the road over 3/4 the length of the narrower tire.

 

And the last bit is that tire traction is greatest in the direction with the greatest tread contact patch length. A long, skinny tire won't corner worth a dang, but it will start and stop extremely well. It's why "narrower is better" for snow tires; better traction in the "most important" direction, and less snow to push aside in front of the tire.

 

Have fun,

Frank

[cwstnsko]

I don't believe he is looking at the regular N-blue, he is looking to use the EV specific tire that is the Stock tire on the Kia Soul EV.  It only comes in one size
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Nexen&tireModel=N+blue+EV

[fbov]

That's why I linked to the Nexen site... they show the same size, but specs are different and there is no "EV" tire.

Frank

[okashira]

Picked up some wheels from a 2014 or 2015 FF for $150, and they are pristine. 500 miles.

 

205/60/16 N Blue EV tires are about $90 a pop, and 225/50/17 Michelen Eco tires are about $90, so $400-$150 = $250 saved on next tire install. But I should be able to sell the stock 17's for at least $250 with the crap tires on there, so I come out ahead $500

 

Edited December 10, 2015 by okashira

[obob]

Picked up some wheels from a 2014 or 2015 FF for $150, and they are pristine. 500 miles.

 

205/60/16 N Blue EV tires are about $90 a pop, and 225/50/17 Michelen Eco tires are about $90, so $400-$150 = $250 saved on next tire install. But I should be able to sell the stock 17's for at least $250 with the crap tires on there, so I come out ahead $500

 

ffwheels.PNG

 

Awesome !

[plus 3 golfer]

Picked up some wheels from a 2014 or 2015 FF for $150, and they are pristine. 500 miles.

 

205/60/16 N Blue EV tires are about $90 a pop, and 225/50/17 Michelen Eco tires are about $90, so $400-$150 = $250 saved on next tire install. But I should be able to sell the stock 17's for at least $250 with the crap tires on there, so I come out ahead $500

 

ffwheels.PNG

So, your Energi weighs maybe 600+ pounds for than the Kia EV and you choose to go with a tire sized and load rated for the KIA ???  Why not choose the Bridgestone Ecopia Plus tire in 205/65R16 which has the proper load rating for your Energi?  It's virtually the same price as the N Blue.  It's revs/mile is lower by around 2+% which should effectively give you a numerically lower final drive ratio and likely improve highway FE.  The Nexen tire will yield a numerically higher effective final drive ratio and likely hurt FE.

[fbov]

... the proper load rating...

This message isn't getting through. He's going to buy an incompatible tire, regardless the advice to the contrary.

Frank

[okashira]

So, your Energi weighs maybe 600+ pounds for than the Kia EV and you choose to go with a tire sized and load rated for the KIA ???  Why not choose the Bridgestone Ecopia Plus tire in 205/65R16 which has the proper load rating for your Energi?  It's virtually the same price as the N Blue.  It's revs/mile is lower by around 2+% which should effectively give you a numerically lower final drive ratio and likely improve highway FE.  The Nexen tire will yield a numerically higher effective final drive ratio and likely hurt FE.

 

 

This message isn't getting through. He's going to buy an incompatible tire, regardless the advice to the contrary.

Frank

I guess both of you have good intentions, but you're both kind of misinformed. I'll be reducing the load rating by 3%, from 5908 to 5732 total, combined with weight reduction. It's a non-issue and we can move on. One quick note: increasing tire diameter in reduce final drive ratio is not a good way to improve FE... you raise the ride height (aero) and do nothing to reduce the transmission losses causes by the higher drive ratio - in fact you may make the losses worse and put more wear on the transmission due to increased torque demand.

Edited December 11, 2015 by okashira

[fbov]

You are going to do what you want to do, regardless what we say.

 

Our job is to make sure your eye are open. The best we can do is point out the cliff, and hope you see it in time. Your Energi is 18% more massive that the Soul EV, before you even open the door, yet you continue to think they can use the same tires. That's poor judgment.

 

You got the wrong load ratings in your post (5732 is 4x OEM rating, your goal), which leads one to suspect other technical errors in your estimates. That's a sign of poor understanding.

 

Poor understanding combined with poor judgment is unlikely to result in a happy outcome. I hope it's one you have the opportunity to learn from.

 

That's the best good intentions can do.

[obob]

Going to a lower load tire doesn't seem to be that big a deal to me.

 

Here are some numbers

 

Energi weight   3895 lbs

Load capacity      825  lbs   (3895+825 = 4720)

 

Weight distribution  (front-back)  55/45

 

And weight at capacity will most likely mostly be added to the rear.

 

On both tires, original and the replacements, the capacity exceed the capacity of the car.

 

(I got the numbers from Consumer Reports)

 

Note: Load Capacity is the same for energi and the hybrid.  Weight of hybrid is 3615

Edited December 12, 2015 by obob

[plus 3 golfer]

I guess both of you have good intentions, but you're both kind of misinformed. I'll be reducing the load rating by 3%, from 5908 to 5732 total, combined with weight reduction. It's a non-issue and we can move on. One quick note: increasing tire diameter in reduce final drive ratio is not a good way to improve FE... you raise the ride height (aero) and do nothing to reduce the transmission losses causes by the higher drive ratio - in fact you may make the losses worse and put more wear on the transmission due to increased torque demand.

Do whatever you desire.  

 

Justify it however you want to.  So, I guess my  transmission will likely fail very soon given my 2.59 final drive ratio vs the Energi's 2.91.   I don't know anyone who has put oversize tires on their car that had transmission failures because of the tires nor got worse FE than the standard tire. In fact, most report a significant increase in FE at cruising speed.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer

[obob]

Do whatever you desire.  

 

Justify it however you want to.  So, I guess your Energi transmission will likely fail very soon given your 2.91 final drive ratio vs the Hybrids 2.59.   I don't know anyone who has put oversize tires on their car that had transmission failures because of the tires nor got worse FE than the standard tire. In fact, most report a significant increase in FE at cruising speed.

 

I don't visit the Energi forum much.  Are they experiencing a higher frequency of transmission failures, or sooner mileage-wise transmission failures compared to the C-Max Hybrid?

[plus 3 golfer]

I don't visit the Energi forum much.  Are they experiencing a higher frequency of transmission failures, or sooner mileage-wise transmission failures compared to the C-Max Hybrid?

 

I don't visit the Energi forum much.  Are they experiencing a higher frequency of transmission failures, or sooner mileage-wise transmission failures compared to the C-Max Hybrid?

See my corrected post.  In my haste I got it backwards.  It was a "joke".  The OP arguments fail as to putting slightly oversize tires on a car.  I was simply trying to give him an alternative.  

 

If 91/92 tires are within load "range", when does a tire become out of load range.  Why not put an 89 or 87 tire on????

[obob]

Going to a lower load tire doesn't seem to be that big a deal to me.

 

Here are some numbers

 

Energi weight   3895 lbs

Load capacity      825  lbs   (3895+825 = 4720)

 

Weight distribution  (front-back)  55/45

 

And weight at capacity will most likely mostly be added to the rear.

 

On both tires, original and the replacements, the capacity exceed the capacity of the car.

 

(I got the numbers from Consumer Reports)

 

Note: Load Capacity is the same for energi and the hybrid.  Weight of hybrid is 3615

 

Things may be more complicated than this math.  I got this from a post from this article:

http://community.cartalk.com/discussion/2298701/tire-load-ratings-do-they-matter

 

 

Michelin says this about load rating:

"A tire with a higher load index than that of the Original Equipment tire indicates an increase in load capacity. A tire with a load index equal to that of the Original Equipment tire indicates an equivalent load capacity. A tire with a lower load index than the Original Equipment tire indicates the tire does not equal the load capacity of the original and should not be considered for installation on the vehicle." 

Edited December 12, 2015 by obob

[fbov]

Interesting link there obob....

 

There's something interesting going on with that tire. I found the mfr. specs. Hopefully this is instructive (if somewhat confusing due to header mismatch).

 

(table completely scrogged, no point in post without it)

Edited December 14, 2015 by fbov

[okashira]

Things may be more complicated than this math.  I got this from a post from this article:

http://community.cartalk.com/discussion/2298701/tire-load-ratings-do-they-matter

 

 

Michelin says this about load rating:

"A tire with a higher load index than that of the Original Equipment tire indicates an increase in load capacity. A tire with a load index equal to that of the Original Equipment tire indicates an equivalent load capacity. A tire with a lower load index than the Original Equipment tire indicates the tire does not equal the load capacity of the original and should not be considered for installation on the vehicle." 

Didn't really learn anything there. Guy installs garbage cheap tires on his car three load ratings below the original spec and he has tire problems.

 

Michelin says don't use tires rated lower then OEM. Do you expect them to say "it's ok to lower the load rating if it's only a little bit." ?  ;-)

 

 

You are going to do what you want to do, regardless what we say.

 

Our job is to make sure your eye are open. The best we can do is point out the cliff, and hope you see it in time. Your Energi is 18% more massive that the Soul EV, before you even open the door, yet you continue to think they can use the same tires. That's poor judgment.

 

You got the wrong load ratings in your post (5732 is 4x OEM rating, your goal), which leads one to suspect other technical errors in your estimates. That's a sign of poor understanding.

 

Poor understanding combined with poor judgment is unlikely to result in a happy outcome. I hope it's one you have the opportunity to learn from.

 

That's the best good intentions can do.

 

You're not technically minded. Ok. But this is not a pissing match nor is it high school debate session. But to play along, let's address at some of your points:

 

• The Kia Soul's load rating and factory weight is 100% irrelevant. All that matters is the tire I want to use has a load rating of 92. Let me note that you've mentioned the Kia Soul multiple times now like it makes any difference here.
• You discussed the Nexen N Blue tires (and their 91 load rating) yet nowhere did I suggest I would be using such tire.
• You pointed out that I used 92 instead of 93 when I mentioned the factory tire load rings, and suggested that might have something to do with my understanding of the situation. Okay. Yet, what really matters is the difference in load rating, which will match what I posted. Mind taking the time to point out the difference since you might have the time?
• You came to your conclusion that I have poor understanding and poor judgement without knowing anything about me except random irrelevant tidbits. 

Now, I am technically minded on the other hand. In fact, I've worked as a mechanical engineer for my career and I design safety equipment for billion dollar projects. I've also done just about everything you can imagine to a car, including engine, suspension, and tires. I also design rubber products for a living.

I know a few things about safety factors.

Please try to be specific and technical when you make any arguments or draw any conclusions.

 

More random things for other poster:

• It's not really relevant that the hybrid has a 2.5 gear ratio an the energi has a 2.9 ratio. They were originally designed like that. Ford does analyze these things you know.
• Putting larger tires on the car will increase ride height and thus drag, this is pretty much a fact when it comes to automobiles.
• Anecdotes of people saying their mileage increased when they installed larger tires should generally be ignored since these sorts of things are famously affected by the placebo effect
• Putting larger tires will increase torque load on ALL components including CV joints, splines, transmission gears, engine and motors. I'm not saying this would not actually be okay, it would probably be fine, but the stock tires are already large to begin with. I don't want to use larger tires.

 

 

Going to a lower load tire doesn't seem to be that big a deal to me.

 

Here are some numbers

 

Energi weight   3895 lbs

Load capacity      825  lbs   (3895+825 = 4720)

 

Weight distribution  (front-back)  55/45

 

And weight at capacity will most likely mostly be added to the rear.

 

On both tires, original and the replacements, the capacity exceed the capacity of the car.

 

(I got the numbers from Consumer Reports)

 

Note: Load Capacity is the same for energi and the hybrid.  Weight of hybrid is 3615

 

 

Here is a basic example of how you make a technical argument. Note that actual numbers are used and the poster is specific and to the point.

The energi has a load rating of 4720. N Blue EV tires have a load rating of 5556. Factory tires have a load rating of 5732. Both are comfortably above the factory load rating.

And he's correct that generally, excess extreme load would be in the center of the car (rear passengers) and the rear of the car (hatchback)

 

 

 

/had a bad day rant.

[fbov]

...You're not technically minded. Ok. But this is not a pissing match nor is it high school debate session. ...

...Here is a basic example of how you make a technical argument. Note that actual numbers are used and the poster is specific and to the point.

The energi has a load rating of 4720. N Blue EV tires have a load rating of 5556. Factory tires have a load rating of 5732. Both are comfortably above the factory load rating....

It would be helpful if you were as technically competent as you believe yourself to be. Very good examples, of the adage: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing", and the danger of internet "learning."

 

"The energi has a load rating of 4720. N Blue EV tires have a load rating of 5556. Factory tires have a load rating of 5732."

 

An engineer would say the Energi has a rated load capacity of 2866 lb. on the front axel and 1854 lb. on the rear axel. In fact, they did, on the door placard. I'm assuming rated axel load capacity does not exceed the OEM tire load index rating (about 60/40). What's the placard actually say? 

 

The N'blue tires in this size have a maximum load rating of 1389 lb. at 44 psi. What does that mean? It depends if this is an ETRTO tire or a P-metric tire. That's the difference between the two Michelin ES/AS 225/50-17's; the OEM tire is rated 1433 lb. at 51 psi, the other is 1477 lb. at 44 psi. Logical? No, but real.

 

You're using an ETRTO size, so the ETRTO load tables apply. Here's a link to the Toyo application guide, which has the tables.

- ETRTO specifies load at 36 psi, so a 92 load index has 1389 lb. load capacity at 36 psi. 

- P-metric specifies load at 35 psi, so a 93 load index has a 1433 lb. load capacity at 35 psi, consistent with door placard.

 

Here's what a technically minded person would understand about your choice of tire and size.

 

Your car is using its full OEM tire rated load capacity to achieve placard loads. There is no excess capacity available. 93 load index is a mandatory minimum.

 

Assuming a 3900 lb. curb weight and 60/40 split, you'll need at least 30 psi in the tire (per the tables) before you should let the car down off the jack... but you can't get in.

 

Assuming a 34 psi TPMS limit, you'll have a 600 lb. functional load capacity. Taking a family on a long, summer vacation would be foolhardy. You might be safe in a solo commute in an unladen vehicle.

 

Note that this assumes 100% of the safety margin is in the tire load rating, and that non-catastrophic transient loads are not a significant factor in the service life of the tire. There's a reason no one recommends this course of action.

 

Please reconsider,

Frank

[plus 3 golfer]

XX 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer

[okashira]

It would be helpful if you were as technically competent as you believe yourself to be. Very good examples, of the adage: "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing", and the danger of internet "learning."

 

"The energi has a load rating of 4720. N Blue EV tires have a load rating of 5556. Factory tires have a load rating of 5732."

 

An engineer would say the Energi has a rated load capacity of 2866 lb. on the front axel and 1854 lb. on the rear axel. In fact, they did, on the door placard. I'm assuming rated axel load capacity does not exceed the OEM tire load index rating (about 60/40). What's the placard actually say? 

 

The N'blue tires in this size have a maximum load rating of 1389 lb. at 44 psi. What does that mean? It depends if this is an ETRTO tire or a P-metric tire. That's the difference between the two Michelin ES/AS 225/50-17's; the OEM tire is rated 1433 lb. at 51 psi, the other is 1477 lb. at 44 psi. Logical? No, but real.

 

You're using an ETRTO size, so the ETRTO load tables apply. Here's a link to the Toyo application guide, which has the tables.

- ETRTO specifies load at 36 psi, so a 92 load index has 1389 lb. load capacity at 36 psi. 

- P-metric specifies load at 35 psi, so a 93 load index has a 1433 lb. load capacity at 35 psi, consistent with door placard.

 

Here's what a technically minded person would understand about your choice of tire and size.

 

Your car is using its full OEM tire rated load capacity to achieve placard loads. There is no excess capacity available. 93 load index is a mandatory minimum.

 

Assuming a 3900 lb. curb weight and 60/40 split, you'll need at least 30 psi in the tire (per the tables) before you should let the car down off the jack... but you can't get in.

 

Assuming a 34 psi TPMS limit, you'll have a 600 lb. functional load capacity. Taking a family on a long, summer vacation would be foolhardy. You might be safe in a solo commute in an unladen vehicle.

 

Note that this assumes 100% of the safety margin is in the tire load rating, and that non-catastrophic transient loads are not a significant factor in the service life of the tire. There's a reason no one recommends this course of action.

 

Please reconsider,

Frank

Ok. Thanks for you concern, but it will be OK. I promise. I will be using the maximum pressure on the sidewall, of course - 44psi cold.

If something happens I will update... :-)

Don't forget I'll be running with about 120lbs of weight reduction.

Thanks for linking to the extra technical information on load ratings. I also understand this is a consumer product, and safety factors are well higher what I use for oil & gas applications which are pretty conservative. When it comes to rubber products, nothing is black and white when it comes to hard numbers because the there is a large element of uncertainty due to the nature of the rubber mechanical properties and the mixing & molding process.

If I need to take the family on a trip with 700 lbs of extra load I will think twice about the situation.

You indirectly do make a good point - a thinner tire will require a higher pressure, and it did concern me that the N Blue EV tire had a max sidewall pressure label of only 44psi. I wonder why it is so low..

Edited December 21, 2015 by okashira