EPA may test the C-Max Hybrid

[AgentCMAX]

Problem is that it does not work well on 65 - 70 mph, which kills economy on california-s freeways.

 

Another factor to the C-Max not getting the 47mpg on freeways (at 65 - 70mph) could be due to aerodynamics?  Seems like the Prius form factor lends to a lower drag coefficient?

 

I work in Walnut Creek, CA so my commute is on 680.  I can see that at 65mph, I'm mostly getting around 32-40mpg depending on the elevation along the 680 freeway.  My first tank of gas netted 46.2 mpg.  So far on the second, I'm getting about 45.5 mpg or so.  My commute is about 50% hwy and 50% city/backroads.  However, when I'm actually on the highway, I don't normally drive 65-70mph for long.   As a matter of fact, since I got the C-Max, I've been driving near 62-65 mph to maximize the mileage.  This is possible since during commute time, traffic doesn't go faster than 65-70mph for long.

 

Maybe I'll do some testing with the Trip 2 and reset it during the freeway stretch and see what the average mpg is.  Although it's tough to stay at 65mph for long during commute time.

Edited November 30, 2012 by AgentCMAX

[skwcrj]

Your math is wrong for calculating ICE mpg. A portion of the gasoline energy consumed by the C-Max is used to charge the battery that in turn provides more total range. 

 

So.... Lets say you travel from point A to Point B. Say... 100 miles. You drive 20 miles on EV (ICE OFF -no gasoline consumed). Your ICE runs for 80 miles doing whatever it's going to do while burning 87 oct gas. Let's say you consumed 2.0 gallons. What was your 100 mile mpg? How many miles per gallon did get while on EV mode? What about while the ICE was on?

 

Looking forward to your answers!!!!!

[darrelld]

So.... Lets say you travel from point A to Point B. Say... 100 miles. You drive 20 miles on EV (ICE OFF -no gasoline consumed). Your ICE runs for 80 miles doing whatever it's going to do while burning 87 oct gas. Let's say you consumed 2.0 gallons. What was your 100 mile mpg? How many miles per gallon did get while on EV mode? What about while the ICE was on?

 

Looking forward to your answers!!!!!

You scenario is inapplicable because those conditions will never occur in the C-Max. If you really want to know how efficient the C-Max ICE is go test an Energi and hit the EV later button. Even those numbers would not completely apply to the regular C-Max due to the extra battery weight and lower gear ratio.

[skwcrj]

You guys are making this way harder than it is.

 

This is a simple math problem. MPG stands for Miles Per Gallon or MPG= Miles/Gallons.

 

Keep it simple. Leave all engineering and energy changes out of it.

 

The C-Max Hybrid is quite capable of driving 1/5 of its miles on EV. Many folks on Fuelly report 20-25% of their miles per tank as EV miles.

 

Try Again.

Edited December 1, 2012 by skwcrj

[Laurel]

Let's see... Since we are on a Ford forum, It's horrible. ;) I hate it. ;) Horrible gas mileage. Toyota says the EPA combined mpg is 42 mpg. I mean look at my pitiful averege mpg on my Fuelly signature. ;) Too small. ;) Unreliable. ;)

 

Shoot me an offline message. I'll tell you more about it.

We drove the Prius V a couple of times while trying to make up our minds.  My husband found it "okay" and I hated it.  It reminded me of clunky stiff van.  I am loving my new C-Max.  Fell in love with it on our test drive--first car in 30 years that I can say this about (last one was the P1800 Volvo).  It is just so sporty and comfortable and so pretty inside.  I know you obviously bought the Prius V for the mileage, but I want style with good mileage.  I think Ford has a real winner with the C-Max.  I can't contribute to the mileage stats yet but will as we break in our new family member.  Can hardly wait for morning to hit the road tomorrow and show it to all our friends.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Laurel

[RachelnLa]

I thought the same thing with the Prius- mini van feel. Not for me. I was sold on the cmax when we pulled off the lot for a test drive.

[CNCGeek]

The Energi is rated at 44 City/ 41 Hwy/ 43 combined.

 

Woohoo!  I'm getting (almost) the same fuel economy as the Energi! :happy feet:

[roundtrip]

Regarding "skwcrj" post below:

 

"BTW... I'm not picking on you. Most of the users can't get the C-Max to give a tank average (by that I   mean a 400+ mile tank) of more than 40 mpg."

 

 

I'm not sure I understand this comment..  I have been able to get this mpg from my daily drive to work since purchasing the car, however, I have had my mpg fall from a high of 44 avg down to about 42 avg. since the ambient temperatures have been dropping.  See attached pic from this weeks tank.  

Also while it is true from last weeks tank that my ICE mpg is only about 29 mpg, however, I'm not sure I understand "skwcrj" comment about this being a low number.  I am new to owning a hybrid type car, but this number seems typical as I used to drive a Mazda with 4 cyc and avg about 31 mpg.

 

I think when the warmer temperatures return that it seems possible for me to get the 47 mpg number.

[darrelld]

Regarding "skwcrj" post below:

 

"BTW... I'm not picking on you. Most of the users can't get the C-Max to give a tank average (by that I   mean a 400+ mile tank) of more than 40 mpg."

 

 

I'm not sure I understand this comment..  I have been able to get this mpg from my daily drive to work since purchasing the car, however, I have had my mpg fall from a high of 44 avg down to about 42 avg. since the ambient temperatures have been dropping.  See attached pic from this weeks tank.  

12_1_2012.jpg

Also while it is true from last weeks tank that my ICE mpg is only about 29 mpg, however, I'm not sure I understand "skwcrj" comment about this being a low number.  I am new to owning a hybrid type car, but this number seems typical as I used to drive a Mazda with 4 cyc and avg about 31 mpg.

 

I think when the warmer temperatures return that it seems possible for me to get the 47 mpg number.

I am not sure skwcrj understands how hybrids work and the C-Max in particular. Think of your battery as another fuel tank, the fuel in the batteries case being electrons. As you drive and the C-Max ICE runs, part of the gasoline stored in the gas tank gets converted to electrons by the on board generator for storage in your battery. The energy stored in your battery can then be used more efficiently by the electric motors in less than 62 mph driving conditions. So there is no direct correlation between ICE gas mileage and distance unless you had some way to turn the ICE on and the electric motors off. The Energi does a version of this with its EV later mode.

Edited December 1, 2012 by darrelld

[Aptos Driver]

All's I know about this stuff is that our '12 Camry hybrid is averaging better than 40 mpg over some 5,000 miles. I don't much care how many of those miles were solely on EV. All I care about is the bottom line at the gas pump! :hysterical:

[skwcrj]

So there is no direct correlation between ICE gas mileage and distance unless you had some way to turn the ICE on and the electric motors off.

Really?!!!! Interesting. Please explain further.

 

Darrelld,

 

Wether you like it or not. It's very simple.

 

Anytime your engine is ON, your car is using gasoline at a rate based on engine load and rpm. When you calculate Miles Per Gallon, you are taking the number of miles you drove and divide by the number of gallons your engine used. Hybrids are more efficient than other cars in getting better MPG because of the capability of being driven in EV mode only. The hybrid is also very efficient because it can split the power from the engine via a Power Split Device (look that up) to wheels, a traction motor, and/or a motor generator that charges your battery.

 

At the end of the day, there is no free lunch. As you travelled from Point A to Point B, your engine consumed gasoline to provide the work above. Anytime your car is in EV mode it doesn't use any gasoline. Any other time, it does. Therefore, your can calculated what your engine is using per mile. The energy conversion processes only affect the fuel flow from the engine and therefore your fuel efficiency.

 

Really. It's that simple.

Edited December 1, 2012 by skwcrj

[skwcrj]

All's I know about this stuff is that our '12 Camry hybrid is averaging better than 40 mpg over some 5,000 miles. I don't much care how many of those miles were solely on EV. All I care about is the bottom line at the gas pump! :hysterical:

Isn't that the truth. :)

[stranger267]

I thought the same thing with the Prius- mini van feel. Not for me. I was sold on the cmax when we pulled off the lot for a test drive.

I tested Prius, CMAX,  Prius V, VW TDI Golf , Subaru Impresa CVT.

 

Out of this list, all cars feels good except Priuses. I hate it all together. Yes, it makes better mpg for sure, but not much better, and makes it by the cost of the very poor driving and underpower (I can't even think how it wil behave on Old Priest Road or on HW 108, in Sierra).

 

(MY personal rating by driving experience was - Sumaru Impreza, CMAX, TDI Golf, TDI Jetta, Prius, Prius V).

 

Adding futuristic controls of Prius, it was ruled out. But I can recommend it to those who live in the flatland or in the big city (if they can deal with prius controls and visibility).

 

CMAX is de facto a compromise - it allows a very good mpg (if you cruise on 63 mph it really shows what was promised) but is still a very good car by driving feelings.

 

// The best highway runner by mpg is TDI Golf out of any doubts. But unfortunately California went against diesel and VW by itself is not very reliable car in average. I think that CMAX with TDI diesel and CVT (if exists) will show better freeway mpg then any hybrid (record in VW Passat was 1,000 miles on tank, but it was record of course). Europe got course to diesel and not hybrids and it was by the reason - diesel don't have battery issues. Hybrids must be Plug-In (CMAX Energy) to be a winners, as it allows to use cheap energy for every day commuts.

Edited December 1, 2012 by stranger267

[Arthur]

The mpg does not come up to the advertised numbers, but I still love this car, I've only had for 3 weeks, it's great to drive, 

I live in a very hilly area, and I can only get 38 to 42 mpg, I did not expect the 47 for my home area, but I made a 200 mile trip

yesterday, mostly interstate, some local, and a little city, I drive with a light foot, and work at it, my average when arriving home

was 46.8, so that gave me some encouragement.

[skwcrj]

I tested Prius, CMAX,  Prius V, VW TDI Golf , Subaru Impresa CVT.

 

Out of this list, all cars feels good except Priuses. I hate it all together. Yes, it makes better mpg for sure, but not much better, and makes it by the cost of the very poor driving and underpower (I can't even think how it wil behave on Old Priest Road or on HW 108, in Sierra).

 

(MY personal rating by driving experience was - Sumaru Impreza, CMAX, TDI Golf, TDI Jetta, Prius, Prius V).

 

Adding futuristic controls of Prius, it was ruled out. But I can recommend it to those who live in the flatland or in the big city (if they can deal with prius controls and visibility).

 

CMAX is de facto a compromise - it allows a very good mpg (if you cruise on 63 mph it really shows what was promised) but is still a very good car by driving feelings.

 

// The best highway runner by mpg is TDI Golf out of any doubts. But unfortunately California went against diesel and VW by itself is not very reliable car in average. I think that CMAX with TDI diesel and CVT (if exists) will show better freeway mpg then any hybrid (record in VW Passat was 1,000 miles on tank, but it was record of course). Europe got course to diesel and not hybrids and it was by the reason - diesel don't have battery issues. Hybrids must be Plug-In (CMAX Energy) to be a winners, as it allows to use cheap enevry for every day commuts.

The Prius is not for everyone as C-Max, TDI, or even a Porche are not for everyone.

 

The C-Max is fun to drive. But, your pay for that "fun" with poorer mpg.

 

The Prius would do just fine on  "Old Priest Road or on HW 108, in Sierra". My car did just fine climbing Homestake Pass just east of Butte,Mt (same or steeper grades than CA Hwy 108) on our way to Yellowstone.

 

Most importantly:

 

I'm not here to sell anyone a Prius. You can buy any car you like. I could care less. I'm here to see if the C-Max will replace one of our older cars. It all depends how the user mpg's improve over time. Right now it's not looking good. If the car is advertised at 47 mph and most users struggle to get 40, then the C-Max is probably not for me. But, I'm not giving up yet.

Edited December 1, 2012 by skwcrj

[darrelld]

Really?!!!! Interesting. Please explain further.

 

Darrelld,

 

Wether you like it or not. It's very simple.

 

Anytime your engine is ON, your car is using gasoline at a rate based on engine load and rpm. When you calculate Miles Per Gallon, you are taking the number of miles you drove and divide by the number of gallons your engine used. Hybrids are more efficient than other cars in getting better MPG because of the capability of being driven in EV mode only. The hybrid is also very efficient because it can split the power from the engine via a Power Split Device (look that up) to wheels, a traction motor, and/or a motor generator that charges your battery.

 

At the end of the day, there is no free lunch. As you travelled from Point A to Point B, your engine consumed gasoline to provide the work above. Anytime your car is in EV mode it doesn't use any gasoline. Any other time, it does. Therefore, your can calculated what your engine is using per mile. The energy conversion processes only affect the fuel flow from the engine and therefore your fuel efficiency.

 

Really. It's that simple.

I was hoping you would finally figure it out.

[skwcrj]

I was hoping you would finally figure it out.

The question is do you get it? So what's the answer to my original very simple math excercise?

[darrelld]

The question is do you get it? So what's the answer to my original very simple math excercise?

I don't know its too complicated. ;)

[CNCGeek]

 Right now it's not looking good. If the car is advertised at 47 mph and most users struggle to get 40, then the C-Max is probably not for me. But, I'm not giving up yet.

 

If the biggest factor is fuel efficiency then I would say the C-max is not for you.  I think it's unfortunate that the advertised mpg was 47 since it is unlikely (from my experience) to get that under nomal conditions.  I feel that 47mpg only serves to disappoint people when they don't get within reach of it, which is not really fair to an otherwise nice vehicle.  42mpg is probably about it for me, and that is without hypermiling except for the pulse and glide technique which I have been trying when it is safe to do, I am also doing pretty well on the scores (upper 90's IIRC).  The C-max probably would have been my choice for several reasons over the Prius anyway, but if the additional hp, and subjective things like the design, handling and interior features do not appeal to you then I can't see how it would beat a Prius.  I look at the C-max now as comparable to the V in rated mpg, with a smaller cargo capacity, but the V just remided me of middle age in suburbia more than the C-max does.

[mdkoeck]

My thoughts for my C-MAX SEL that I really like to drive (I have 3000 miles).  I find the computer to be off by about 2 mpg in Ford's favor when refilling the tank.

 

Since I bought it in September, I was first getting good mileage 43 to 44mpg on my 15 mi commute to work.  After driving it a week, I was getting the 45 to 51mpg consistently.  Part of my commute is 9 miles of I-90 and I never drove it over 62 mph, part was waiting to get on the entrance ramp and 3 miles of stop and go.  I am not afraid to punch the throttle when passing or pulling out of a toll gate.  However, I do pull off gently to stay in EV mode when in stop and go...unless I need to quickly merge.  

 

Now that it's cold (I live in Boston), I get 38 to 44 on the way to work depending on if I stop at the gym first (engine is a bit warmer when making my final trek to work).  It's not uncommon for my 1st leg to the gym to read 16 mpg as I have the lights, heater and heated seats on and it just gets warm when I turn it off.  My last tank measurement which included 285 miles of driving in the rain and snow averaged 38.5 mpg.  Again, I kept it running no more than 62 mph unless needing to pass or pulse it to get it into EV mode.

 

I feel duped buying this for the 47 mpg mileage, but I love the way it drives, the space, the interior.....and the Mytouch.  I hope the promised mileage returns in the spring, just like the flowers in my garden.

 

Oh yeah....There are some initial software issues that will make the car appear not to start....it will go into battery safe mode by itself and only then it will allow you to start after about 15 min.  So if your car appears to be alive, but won't start, be patient and you'll get it started again.  Yeah, that pissed me off, but the dealer said Ford was aware of it and had a fix... so that, and a loaner car eased the pain.  

 

Am I a fool for still liking this car?

[C-MaxJaxon]

The difference in annual fuel cost between 40 and 47 mpg is under $200 per year if you drive less than 15K miles. Hardly worth worrying about.

 

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/savemoney.shtml

[CNCGeek]

The difference in annual fuel cost between 40 and 47 mpg is under $200 per year if you drive less than 15K miles. Hardly worth worrying about.

 

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/savemoney.shtml

 

That is true, but mpg is still a very big factor in the purchase decisions of most buyers, and also in Ford's marketing for the C-max, so it is still relevant.

[skwcrj]

If the biggest factor is fuel efficiency then I would say the C-max is not for you.  I think it's unfortunate that the advertised mpg was 47 since it is unlikely (from my experience) to get that under nomal conditions.  I feel that 47mpg only serves to disappoint people when they don't get within reach of it, which is not really fair to an otherwise nice vehicle.  42mpg is probably about it for me, and that is without hypermiling except for the pulse and glide technique which I have been trying when it is safe to do, I am also doing pretty well on the scores (upper 90's IIRC).  The C-max probably would have been my choice for several reasons over the Prius anyway, but if the additional hp, and subjective things like the design, handling and interior features do not appeal to you then I can't see how it would beat a Prius.  I look at the C-max now as comparable to the V in rated mpg, with a smaller cargo capacity, but the V just remided me of middle age in suburbia more than the C-max does.

I agree with you 100%. If the advertised EPA mpg had been 40 or 42, I wouldn't have even considered it. Of course, having said that, I bought the Prius V knowing that the combined EPA mpg is 42. I guess since I beat that by 6-8 mpg (8-10 in the summer), I would have a hard time going back to 40 mpg.

 

Thanks for letting hang here and give you a hard time. I appreciate all the information I've learned from all of you.

 

Oh...And ... Do you have something against middle age in suburbia???? :redcard:  Just kidding!!!

[skwcrj]

Am I a fool for still liking this car?

No. I don't think so.

 

Other than not making the EPA estimated mpg of 47, it sound like a great car: Power, incredible technology, comfort, smooth/quiet ride. As a brand new model with brand new technology, it will have issues the first year or two.

[darrelld]

That is true, but mpg is still a very big factor in the purchase decisions of most buyers, and also in Ford's marketing for the C-max, so it is still relevant.

Agreed this is true for most buyers and certainly sets the owners expectations higher than what most can probably achieve.

 

Having 3 TDI's in my house that always exceeded EPA I became accustomed to their ratings being off.

 

Today's fill-up recorded a marked drop in FE with the cooler (40s) weather.

Edited December 2, 2012 by darrelld