EPA may test the C-Max Hybrid

[JacobS]

I have now 3100 miles. Mpg is frozen at 38.2. It never got lower then 38.1 and higher then 38.5. The fuel in the tank measurement gave about 38mpg. My opinion that 47 mpg is not about this car. The car  to car MPG dispersion is dependful more from car factory tuneup then driving style. The driving style have to be recomended by the car developer. I'm not sure that the pulsing style is the best for powertrain and transmission.

A driver have to be  at destination in time and drive safely. The fuel economy is the 3rd priority. Overall I'm happy with my Ford C-Max. But I'm not sure that if I'd know that 47mpg is a fiction I'd take a risk to buy the new on the market car. 

[stranger267]

If you're not in a hurry, you can always drive 55-60 mph on a two- or multilane freeway, as long as you don't block the "fast" lane(s).

 

Doing this you create obstacle for others; not mentioning decreasing of the freeway bandwidth. I drive 100 - 150 miles / day often and sometimes I can keep speed under 63 mph on _freeways_, but mostly can not do it.

 

I think that main issue here is that Prius is not optimized for EPA test (and is optimzied for real freeways) while CMAX was optimized for EPA test. As a result, in Prius people get what is posted (as driving on real speed do not make much difference with EPA as both are far from the best scenario) while in CMAX EPA test runs in the _best scenario_ and so any real drive makes not so good results.

 

I drive 2 x 90 miles in the  mountains yesterday; it was a set of small highways, and I kept speed under 63 easily. Result - 43 mpg on my way back (I had a lot of freeways with 70 mph speed and then really big summit on the way there, and used smaller highways and more flat route on the way back), even with last 10 miles on 75 mph speed and few long uphills  and downhills, where battery could not take all energy from discend. So 47 looks as a REAL number - good weather, day time, 70F outside, flat road, 50 mph, 40 psi pressure in the tires, climate system off, radio off  - and you will have it for sure.

 

(My average is about 36 now and looks as it will go to 38 - 39 and stay there eventially).

Edited December 4, 2012 by stranger267

[valkraider]

Doing this you create obstacle for others; not mentioning decreasing of the freeway bandwidth. I drive 100 - 150 miles / day often and sometimes I can keep speed under 63 mph on _freeways_, but mostly can not do it.

 

It's perfectly OK to drive 60mph on the freeway, anywhere in the USA.

 

Many states have laws that trucks or vehicles with trailers or RVs etc. have lower speed limits. Heck, some states don't even have speed limits over 65. Our state max is 65 and some of our freeways are 50mph speed limits.

 

Many vehicles don't cruise well over 60. When I was towing a boat I would never go over 60 because of trailer sway.

 

Heck, I drove across Texas in a moving van toeing a car at 60mph just fine, and TX has the highest speed limits in the nation.

 

I don't understand why people feel it is impossible to drive 60. As long as you stay in the right hand lanes it is perfectly OK.

[stranger267]

It's perfectly OK to drive 60mph on the freeway, anywhere in the USA.

 

 

I don't understand why people feel it is impossible to drive 60. As long as you stay in the right hand lanes it is perfectly OK.

And then come to the final point 10 - 30 minutes later (the difference for 200 miles trip, which is typical here in CA - SFBA Tahoe for example. or SFBA - Shasta area, or SFBA / Los Angeles area - last one is about 450 miles most on 70 speed limit freeways)... Some freeways dont have trucks on them and all lanes go 65 - 75. Some has trucks which go 55 - 60 and left line going 75; and you have a choice of 60 or 75 (or 80) only except if you go left/right all the time. FW 5 is a good example - youc an drive 60 or you can drive 80; but if you try to drive 63 you are in trouble. Left lane drive 80 and right has a trucks and go about 60, sometimes 65. 200 miles trip, 65 means 185 minutes and 80 means 150; 35 minutes difference (and 80 is in the police tolerance limits as posted limit is 70 for the autos).

 

When you drive 25,000 - 35,000 miles per year (my record was 36,000 / year and usuall number is about 24,000 and most not on daily commute) 60 vs 75 makes a difference. Many freeways in California has speed limit in 70, and some in Nevada and Utah has 75. It all is in purpose as it increase system bandwidth.

 

The most common speed in CA (and in overall USA)  on freeways is 65 - 75, so it is better if cars are optimzed for this speed and not for 63.  Those who want to see a record mileage can drift after the truck and have 55 mpg, but it is important to satisfy average drivers with average driving behavior. CMAX stopped a very short of it - if they optimize for 68 and not 63, they could get much better feedbacks from the average drivers.

[Maximus]

Optimizing for closer to 70 mph would negatively impact the efficiency at lower speeds.

 

That's great if most people are averaging 70 mph, but they aren't. 

 

On freeways and highways in more congested areas and urban centers, the flow of traffic is more likely low 60s, if you're lucky.  The posted speed limit in areas like that is at most 65 mph.  That would be the maximum speed you can legally travel, not the slowest. 

 

The maximum speed in states like New York, PA, MA, CT, VT, NH, NJ is 65 mph.  Other states have higher speed, but that's usually only outside of the cities.

 

California DMV:  "The maximum speed limit on most California highways is 65 mph. You may drive 70 mph where posted. Unless otherwise posted, the maximum speed limit is 55 mph on two-lane undivided highways and for vehicles towing trailers.The maximum speed limit on most California highways is 65 mph. You may drive 70 mph where posted. Unless otherwise posted, the maximum speed limit is 55 mph on two-lane undivided highways and for vehicles towing trailers."

 

So given all that, I don't think optimizing for closer to 70 mph is a good idea.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Maximus

[Aptos Driver]

Well of course, the longer the trip, the bigger the difference in arrival time between 65 mph and 60 mph. Most of my freeway trips involve distances of 10 miles or less. Over these distances, driving 60 or even 55 mph doesn't matter much to me in terms of when I get to my destination. So I save gas and actually reduce my risk of having an accident by driving more slowly than other motorists and maintaining a safe distance between my vehicle and other cars/trucks/SUVs. As I said, if I have to pass slower traffic ahead of me -- to avoid cars entering the freeway and bypass congestion caused by cars driving more slowly than 55 mph and tailgating each other -- then I drive the limit, 65 mph. I try to get out of the way of the fools who insist on driving faster and tailgating me as soon as I can safely do so.

[valkraider]

The most common speed in CA (and in overall USA)  on freeways is 65 - 75, so it is better if cars are optimzed for this speed and not for 63.  Those who want to see a record mileage can drift after the truck and have 55 mpg, but it is important to satisfy average drivers with average driving behavior. CMAX stopped a very short of it - if they optimize for 68 and not 63, they could get much better feedbacks from the average drivers.

 

Some years I drive more than others, but I have broke 50k easily in a few.  Heck, just this past year I had a 3 month gig where I was driving 150 miles a day, 5 days a week for 3 full months.

 

I have traversed California completely North to South many times, and done so at varying speeds.  I have done it fast and I have done it slow.  No problems either way.  Most recently, on the same trip mentioned above, we drove from I-40 in the south all the way north up I5, and dis so at 60mph in a moving truck towing a car, followed by a camper towing motorcycles.  Not a single problem. 

 

I probably saved 500 dollars on my cross country trip by keeping the trucks at 60mph instead of 70mph (as it was I spent $3000 in fuel crossing from the SE to the NW - ouch!)

 

On an all day journey, yeah maybe cutting an hour off the travel time can be nice.  But in most every-day driving there will be little difference between 60 and 70 - especially if there is traffic at any point in the trip.

 

I used to drive a lot faster, but Oregon roads just are slower - and people here drive a lot slower in general.  I adjusted.  I have noticed that my travel times don't increase drastically but I save a lot of money in fuel and also reduced stress as I just cruise along without needing to worry about speeding tickets.

[Aptos Driver]

The farthest I drive on the freeway -- when I leave the immediate neighborhood -- is about 4 miles to an area with a Trader Joe's, a shopping mall and couple of other free-standing retail stores, plus the local Toyota dealer. I try to keep to the the right-hand lane at 55-60 mph as much as I can. Many times, someone has come bombing by me at 70 mph, only to wind up abreast of me at the traffic signal at the head of the exit ramp. Driving with some finesse is superior to pedal to the metal.

[Bob999]

I am not convinced that the differences experienced in real world mileage between the Prius and the CMAX is because of "optimization" decisions by the engineers.

 

There is a VERY substantial weight difference between the Prius (3042 lbs) and the CMAX (3607 lbs).  Additionally the CMAX has a lot more power.  Both factors take a toll on fuel economy and, in my view, may explain the differences observed in real world driving experience.

 

The power of the CMAX is much closer to the Toyota Camry Hybrid--and the real world mileage experience is also closer.  The Camry Hybrid is a lighter vehicle (3525 lbs) compared to the CMAX Hybrid (3607 lbs) so I think Ford has done a pretty good job at getting fuel economy with the CMAX Hybrid if Toyota products are the standard.

[valkraider]

I am not convinced that the differences experienced in real world mileage between the Prius and the CMAX is because of "optimization" decisions by the engineers.

 

There is a VERY substantial weight difference between the Prius (3042 lbs) and the CMAX (3607 lbs).  Additionally the CMAX has a lot more power.  Both factors take a toll on fuel economy and, in my view, may explain the differences observed in real world driving experience.

 

C-Max is also less aerodynamic, due to being both taller and with styling made to not look exactly like the Prius & Insight (whose shape is completely designed just for aerodynamics).

 

In my opinion the C-Max drives nicer and looks nicer.  The Prius gets slightly better fuel economy in some situations. 

[Aptos Driver]

I'm going to a nearby Ford dealer today for a test drive -- just to satisfy my curiousity at this point. I won't get serious about replacing my RAV4 for at least 18 months, and more likely two years.

[ptjones]

Well the initial testing on my Plastic Center Grill Aero Cover are in and we are looking at 5.1 mpg at 70mph. That's 40mpg vs 45.1mpg with the cover on at 65 degrees F. and 37mpg vs 41mpg with the cover on at 45 degrees F.  I also noticed you lose about 1.5mpg for each 10 degress colder the outside temp. is.

I did several test starting with cold ICE and temps from 45 -65 degress with the cover on and off.  My route was .5mi to Fwy accelerate to 70mph set ECO cruise for 6mi to next off ramp turn around same procedure back on Fwy and off at my exit back to my shop and record the results. Total mileage of 14.1mi. with about 2mi. EV.  I'm working on simple to install kit that only takes 10-15 minutes to install. I'm looking for another CMAX owner that drives a lot of 70mph fwy speeds to test this cover out in the greater Atlanta area. My current average on this tank is 47.1 mpg with 404mi. and premium fuel. I should make it to 600mi on this tank.

[darrelld]

Well the initial testing on my Plastic Center Grill Aero Cover are in and we are looking at 5.1 mpg at 70mph. That's 40mpg vs 45.1mpg with the cover on at 65 degrees F. and 37mpg vs 41mpg with the cover on at 45 degrees F.  I also noticed you lose about 1.5mpg for each 10 degress colder the outside temp. is.

I did several test starting with cold ICE and temps from 45 -65 degress with the cover on and off.  My route was .5mi to Fwy accelerate to 70mph set ECO cruise for 6mi to next off ramp turn around same procedure back on Fwy and off at my exit back to my shop and record the results. Total mileage of 14.1mi. with about 2mi. EV.  I'm working on simple to install kit that only takes 10-15 minutes to install. I'm looking for another CMAX owner that drives a lot of 70mph fwy speeds to test this cover out in the greater Atlanta area. My current average on this tank is 47.1 mpg with 404mi. and premium fuel. I should make it to 600mi on this tank.

 

Looks promising.

[Aptos Driver]

OK, I finally test-drove a C-MAX SEL this afternoon. First impressions: Front seats are very comfortable and there's lots of room for long-legged drivers and front-seat passengers. I found the rear seat too cramped. I'm 5'11" and the seat pitch reminded me of flying in coach. Back to the front -- did I mention that the leather seats are comfortable? Power adjustment ability is great. Even the highest-level Prius v still only has manually adjustable driver/front-passenger seats. I forgot to ask if the seats were heated. I could imagine taking this car on a road trip, but I'd be reluctant to inflict that on more than one adult passenger, except maybe for my mom, who's barely five feet tall. As for driving, the C-MAX is smooth, peppy and fun to drive. I drove it on surface streets in stop-and-go traffic and on the freeway, where the car merged with oncoming traffic with gusto and ascended a couple of pretty good grades at the speed limit (65 mph) with no sweat. The electronic steering was firm and steady compared to the comparatively looser-feeling steering of our Camry hybrid. I felt connected to the pavement. The transitions from gas to electric and back were seamless; I couldn't tell when they were happening. The mileage for the trip, however, was well below the EPA's 47/47/47 rating rating -- the car reported about 37 mpg at the end. The car probably would've done better if I'd taken it on a longer drive that wasn't all hills. But it's the hills I'm concerned about, because we have to negotiate them with some frequency here on California's Central Coast. And in any case, as I mentioned in an earlier post, gas mileage compared to what? Thirty-seven MPG is a damn sight better than the 22-24 MPG I might be able to score over the same stretch in my '07 RAV4.

 

Aside from the spedometer and gas gauge, I found the instrument-panel display confusing at first. It's not intuitive like the display in our Camry hybrid. But I suppose I could get used to it. I played with the radio a bit and found that somewhat awkward. I didn't try the Ford Sync or MyTouch. This model had the panoramic sunroof which is a nice touch, I guess. (I'd rather have a moonroof.) The C-MAX's cargo space is sufficient for our purposes.

 

Bottom line: I could see myself in this car, plus my wife, and my grandkids when they're a bit older. I don't think it works well for four adults, let alone five. But then, that's what we have a TCH sedan for. So maybe in a couple of years, after the early adopters have weighed in on their longer-term experiences and Consumer Reports has rated its reliability, I'd buy one.

 

The best way to go about that, I'm told, Is through Ford's X-Plan. First established for Ford employees, this no-haggle purchase plan is available to non-employees through partners or whatever you want to call them. For instance, Notre Dame University employees can use it. And for a better instance, anyone who joins the Experimental Aircraft Association ($40/year) can use this plan after being a member for a couple of months or so. If you haven't bought a C-MAX yet and are seriously considering it, you can check out the pricing here (parner code NDUNV) -- for the C-MAX or any other Ford/Lincoln model car.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Aptos Driver

[valkraider]

I found the rear seat too cramped. I'm 5'11"

Really? I thought they were way roomy and I am 5'10"

 

Maybe you are all leg? ;)

 

That's one of the things that sold us on the C-Max was that the back seat was comfortable for adults...

 

Other stuff:

 

Ours will have heated seats, and other commenters have mentioned how well their heated seats work... So that's nice.

 

I got better than x-Plan pricing just by calling around.

 

Also - Ford and the owners manual say not to watch mileage until the engine is broken in at least 1000 miles.

[RachelnLa]

I took a cmax home for a few days and drove it like a regular car. I was able to get 38-39mpg. I am sure by paying attention and after the car breaks in I should have no problem seeing that mpg climb.

 

The room sold me too. I tried a ford focus and it was like riding in a clown car. My teens have cars of their own so ts ime to downsize. Yeah me! Lol

[stranger267]

For everyone who test the car on short drives - if car is cold when you start, turning off climate control for the first 5 minutes makes a big difference sometimes (for me it changed mpg from 26 to 37 - 39 on 5.6 miles drive). The reason is that, when climate is on and outside temperature is cold, car turn on engine to warm the climate system up, and so prevents car from driving on EV for the first 3 - 5 minutes. When climate is off, car normally drives on EV first minutes (while on the streets) and then behave as usual. Engine warms up in approx 5 minutes anyway, so you can turn climate on after it; but first 5 minutes makes a difference. (Of course, if we measure difference in gallons, it will be only 0.05 gal or less).

 

 

So given all that, I don't think optimizing for closer to 70 mph is a good idea.

 

 

Reality is that CA traffic go on 70 - 75 miles on most noncongested freeways (posted 65 + 10 miles tolerance) in the good weather (remember, freeways was desigend for 75 mph and not 65) and so most good cars like Subaru are optimized for this speed. But I agree that in day time speed vary between 60 - 70 mph so even CMAX switch to EV often enough.

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2012 by stranger267

[Aptos Driver]

I took a cmax home for a few days and drove it like a regular car. I was able to get 38-39mpg. I am sure by paying attention and after the car breaks in I should have no problem seeing that mpg climb.

 

 

How were you able to take the car home for "a few days" without buying it? Did the dealer lend you a demo? Did you rent it? Ford dealers around here do not rent their cars, otherwise I would've rented a Fusion hybrid before deciding on a Camry hybrid.  Any way, I'd like to know how you got a dealer to spring one loose for you.

[Aptos Driver]

Really? I thought they were way roomy and I am 5'10"

 

Maybe you are all leg? ;)

 

That's one of the things that sold us on the C-Max was that the back seat was comfortable for adults...

 

 

After I'd driven for a bit, I realized I didn't need to set the driver's seat as far back as I had, which no doubt reduced the rear-seat leg room on the driver's side.

[jlance]

Overall I like my CMAX for a number of reasons, even more than my 2010 Jettawagen. I just don't think my Cmax will ever hit 47mpg. My mileage was the same as consumer reports- most problematic for me is the 37 or so highway. 

 

The reality is I'm guessing a confluence of factors such as those noted in other forums. But the reality is that it doesn't come close to the EPA estimate for most people in average conditions. Which is the problem. 

 

I'm in upstate SC and drive the same 30 miles commute everyday. Less than 67-70 on the highway and you'll get run off the road, but I rarely go more than that. When I do mileage varies little. The terrain is moderately hilly, but nothing major (elevation change between work and home is 200 ft.)

 

I've tried punching and coasting. I only use the ECO cruise. Etc. etc. While this is my first hybrid, I've read a lot about how to drive one. And my previous car (seriously) was a '75 Mercedes Diesel, known in the Mercedes community as a "Teutonic Turtle."  I'm used to driving slow. But my 36 year old Mercedes was right with the CMAX on mileage and if it didn't have problems I probably would have been better off keeping it.

 

I agree with Consumer Reports that it still is good mileage, just not what is to be expected. I think this is going to be a pretty big problem for Ford. They really should get out in front of this and admit that even though it probably conforms to EPA standards, it's high. 

[Aptos Driver]

A 36-year-old Mercedes? That must be some kind of record. I once kept a Volvo DL wagon for about 15 years and 285,000 miles.

[AgentCMAX]

Some drivers are blaming manufacturers for lower than rated mpg.  Some drivers say the EPA is to blame.  Well, the EPA says Drivers are to blame!!! LOL!

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/11/epa-drivers-to-blame-for-lower-fuel-economy.html

 

Then look at the video on this government site and see if this test method matches YOUR driving condition when you try to achieve the rated mpg!!!  Where's the wind drag factor in this test?!?!?  And what octane gas is being used?

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml

 

And here's some real-life testing documented by real C-Max owners...

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45831

 

And here's are tips to drive w/ efficiency in mind

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/04/fuel-efficient-driving-tips-how-to-drive-green.html

 

http://owner.ford.com/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1097497476823&pagename=Owner%2FPage%2FArticleDetail&recid=1251387049618&parentheadlineimageid=1233&parentrightrecid=1238506413737

 

I am getting pretty consistent mileage of 49-52 mpg for my commute to work and around 40-45 mpg for my commute from work to home.  I think the terrain elevation and higher avg. speed (due to less traffic congestion on freeway) on my way home from work is the reason I get lower mpg on the trip from work to home.

 

Edited December 7, 2012 by AgentCMAX

[darrelld]

 

Some drivers are blaming manufacturers for lower than rated mpg.  Some drivers say the EPA is to blame.  Well, the EPA says Drivers are to blame!!! LOL!

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/11/epa-drivers-to-blame-for-lower-fuel-economy.html

 

Then look at the video on this government site and see if this test method matches YOUR driving condition when you try to achieve the rated mpg!!!  Where's the wind drag factor in this test?!?!?  And what octane gas is being used?

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml

 

And here's some real-life testing documented by real C-Max owners...

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45831

 

And here's are tips to drive w/ efficiency in mind

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/04/fuel-efficient-driving-tips-how-to-drive-green.html

 

http://owner.ford.com/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1097497476823&pagename=Owner/Page/ArticleDetail&recid=1251387049618&parentheadlineimageid=1233&parentrightrecid=1238506413737

 

I am getting pretty consistent mileage of 49-52 mpg for my commute to work and around 40-45 mpg for my commute from work to home.  I think the terrain elevation and higher avg. speed (due to less traffic congestion on freeway) on my way home from work is the reason I get lower mpg on the trip from work to home.

 

 

 

 

 

You should should post that to fuelly.com, helps everyone sort through real data from owners.

[ptjones]

Overall I like my CMAX for a number of reasons, even more than my 2010 Jettawagen. I just don't think my Cmax will ever hit 47mpg. My mileage was the same as consumer reports- most problematic for me is the 37 or so highway. 

 

The reality is I'm guessing a confluence of factors such as those noted in other forums. But the reality is that it doesn't come close to the EPA estimate for most people in average conditions. Which is the problem. 

 

I'm in upstate SC and drive the same 30 miles commute everyday. Less than 67-70 on the highway and you'll get run off the road, but I rarely go more than that. When I do mileage varies little. The terrain is moderately hilly, but nothing major (elevation change between work and home is 200 ft.)

 

I've tried punching and coasting. I only use the ECO cruise. Etc. etc. While this is my first hybrid, I've read a lot about how to drive one. And my previous car (seriously) was a '75 Mercedes Diesel, known in the Mercedes community as a "Teutonic Turtle."  I'm used to driving slow. But my 36 year old Mercedes was right with the CMAX on mileage and if it didn't have problems I probably would have been better off keeping it.

 

I agree with Consumer Reports that it still is good mileage, just not what is to be expected. I think this is going to be a pretty big problem for Ford. They really should get out in front of this and admit that even though it probably conforms to EPA standards, it's high. 

You sound like a good candidate for my center grill cover which increased MPG by 4-5mpg at 70mph on my CMAX. See previous Posts. I'm in the atlanta area, any chance of trying one on your CMAX? My lifetime average is 45.4mpg and going up. Last tank I got 47.3mpg actual. Most of my driving is between 45-75mph.

[Aptos Driver]

You sound like a good candidate for my center grill cover which increased MPG by 4-5mpg at 70mph on my CMAX. See previous Posts. I'm in the atlanta area, any chance of trying one on your CMAX? My lifetime average is 45.4mpg and going up. Last tank I got 47.3mpg actual. Most of my driving is between 45-75mph.

What's it look like? Have you posted a picture of it?