2017 Kia Niro

[AZgman]

Another review of the Niro on driving.ca.   No new news on the need for more HP, but some interesting photos (12 v battery reset button?).  The reviewer also observes that "However, with its hybrid powertrain — and subsequent 5.4 L/100 km combined fuel economy rating — the Niro separates itself from that pack, instead focusing its gaze at nibbling into the market share of the Toyota Prius V, and to a lesser extent the Ford C-Max hybrid".

 

The review states "nearly 200 lbft of torque" and that "once you get going" the accelerator response improves. This is a Hybrid right? It has an electric motor with 100% of its torque available at 0 RPM, right? Something does not compute!

[Louder North]

The review states "nearly 200 lbft of torque" and that "once you get going" the accelerator response improves. This is a Hybrid right? It has an electric motor with 100% of its torque available at 0 RPM, right? Something does not compute!

 

Actually, you put your finger right on it ('compute').  In a hybrid, all that torque is not available immediately - it is metered out by the computer.  In some all electric cars and motorcycles, when in 'sport' mode usually, all the torque is available. 

[SnowStorm]

.... but some interesting photos (12 v battery reset button?).

My guess is that it resets a circuit breaker protecting those 180 watt 12V power ports.  Don't think I've ever had a blown fuse on a power port but maybe some people have.  In that case a resettable breaker would be nice.

(Or maybe it resets the computers that run the 12V battery down when their software goes crazy!?  :rant2:  But who would be there to push it? :headscratch: )

[raadsel]

Another review of the Niro on driving.ca.   No new news on the need for more HP, but some interesting photos (12 v battery reset button?).  The reviewer also observes that "However, with its hybrid powertrain — and subsequent 5.4 L/100 km combined fuel economy rating — the Niro separates itself from that pack, instead focusing its gaze at nibbling into the market share of the Toyota Prius V, and to a lesser extent the Ford C-Max hybrid".

 

The 12V battery reset button is because it does not have a physical 12V battery, it uses a portion of the LiPo hybrid battery. From what I understand, if the car sits too long or you run down the "12V battery" (such as using the stereo while the car is off), the battery disconnects while it still has a minimum amount of charge. The button allows you to reconnect the battery to start the car.

[raadsel]

Interesting most reviews mention the 190 ft/lb of Torque yet having driven 3 NIRO's I never feel it. :headscratch: They didn't like the lag time of the accelerator either, CMAX owners wouldn't too. :sad:

 

Paul

 

That is the Eco Mode which the car defaults to when started, similar to the Eco Mode on the newer C-Max. If you put the Niro into sport mode, you should be able to feel the torque. 

 

There is now a third Niro on Fuelly, an EX model (49 mpg combined EPA rating), and that person is getting 52.3 mpg in CT. The two other Touring models (43 mpg combined rating) are currently at 43.2 and 47.7 mpg respectively.

[ptjones]

I tried Sport mode and it didn't change the performance off the line at all and I thought it turned it into a manual trans. I think they showed me how to shift it. :headscratch:  With CMAX you have it right at the start. :shift:  The NIRO just doesn't have the acceleration at anytime during the 0-60 mph run that a CMAX does. :drop:  I don't know what they are doing with the 190 ft/lb of torque, but it isn't doing a very good job of accelerating. :sad: 

 

Paul 

[plus 3 golfer]

I tried Sport mode and it didn't change the performance off the line at all and I thought it turned it into a manual trans. I think they showed me how to shift it. :headscratch:  With CMAX you have it right at the start. :shift:  The NIRO just doesn't have the acceleration at anytime during the 0-60 mph run that a CMAX does. :drop:  I don't know what they are doing with the 190 ft/lb of torque, but it isn't doing a very good job of accelerating. :sad:

 

Paul 

 

The reason likely relates to the fact that the C-Max eCVT allows ICE to operate at virtually peak torque throughout the 0-60 mph run.  With the dual clutch transmission on the Niro, ICE rpm will vary with speed and the gear the car is in.  This means that ICE in the Niro only develops peak torque for a significantly less amount of time during the run.

 

Here's a software developed curve of the C-Max torque and hp.  So, on take off in the C-Max, ICE can virtually instantaneously ramp up to the 4000 rpm (peak torque) whereas the Niro takes time maybe a second or two to reach its peak torque upon it's initial acceleration.  Also, once the Niro reaches around peak torque, the sport mode algorithm should upshift resulting in a lower torque than peak. This upshift would be repeated through all gears.  So, the Niro apparently, even though it's peak torque is greater than the C-Max, accelerates slower in the 0-60 mph run.  

 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Plus 3 Golfer

[raadsel]

There seems to be a fair amount of misinformation here about the Niro. First, from 0-30, the Niro and the C-Max accelerate at about the same speed, both at about 3.3 seconds to 30 mph. Second, the Niro was designed with the idea they were using a geared transmission -- torque is available at lower speeds and across a wider range than on the C-Max. This is much of the reason why the 1.6L engine only produces 104 hp -- they sacrificed the horsepower to give more torque at lower rpms and to improve efficiency, particularly when combined with the electric motor.

 

I know on the Sonata/Optima hybrids, and I'm guessing this carries over to the Ioniq/Niro, the car always uses the electric motor to start moving the car from a complete stop. It will do it on its own, as long as possible (based on throttle and battery SoC), adding the gas engine in when "needed." I recall seeing the time it takes for to bring the gas engine "online" but can't find it now, I recall it being less than 1 second.

 

This is also where Sport mode comes into play. Eco mode, on the Niro, beyond retarding gas pedal response also lowers the shift points on the transmission -- it shifts at the earliest possible point, which is good for fuel efficiency but, as pointed out, keeps the engine at lower RPMs (lower on the HP curve). While Sport mode does put the transmission in a type of "manual mode," it will still automatically shift if you don't -- but mostly it allows the engine to run at higher RPMs, where it is at max horsepower.

 

The acceleration difference between the Niro and the C-Max is primarily above 30 mph, this is where having the relatively "weak" (in terms of HP) 1.6L engine, vs. the 2L engine on the C-Max, hurts the Niro. As a comparison, the Sonata Hybrid (and I assume the new Optima Hybrid) with a similar 2L engine but which still has less horsepower from electric, was shown to be slightly faster than the C-Max, despite its conventional automatic transmission (though it does have an aerodynamic advantage).

 

The Eco mode of the Niro will make the Niro feel slower, though I would suggest when driving for fuel economy (as most of us do), there is little actual difference. It also tells me that those that put the Niro into Sport mode and still found it slower than a Niro at hard acceleration have had their bias for the C-Max color their perception of the speed the Niro accelerated at (not feeling the torque).

 

I finally was able to test drive a Niro (the LX trim, 49 mpg combined rating), though unfortunately it was a rather short drive (only about 3 miles) in the rain. Coming out of the dealership, you pull directly onto an access road with a 50 mph speed limit -- and traffic was steady. Having read some of the comments in this thread, I worried a lot pulling out and was surprised when I had no issues. The Niro accelerated well for me. I went from the dealership to a freeway onramp, less than a quarter of a mile -- and there was no acceleration lane to enter the freeway due to road construction. I had no issue getting up to speed and merging into the 65 mph traffic on the freeway.

 

I only drove about a mile (likely a bit less) on the freeway, just to the next exit. I then to surface streets back to the dealership. The engine ran for a couple of minutes before I left the dealership (the salesman had started it before I got in the car). I reset the trip computer before leaving the dealer lot and, at the end of my drive, it read just about 47.6 mpg -- not bad considering the very wet conditions.

 

I find I like both the C-Max and the Niro, at least so far (I need a much longer test drive of the Niro) but they are different cars. Personally I'm glad both exist and I hate the Ford is getting rid of the C-Max; hopefully they'll add an Escape hybrid, or a tall Model E hatchback. I'll be curious how I'll feel about the Niro after a longer test drive in better weather. I think which people will find "best" depends on which feels more comfortable to them, what options they feel they need, and whether their priority is fuel economy or power. While I know some here think the C-Max is as fuel efficient as the Niro, the Niro has better (and 20% better for the lower trims) EPA ratings, as well as the C-Max having a poor fuel economy reputation from the whole 47/47/47 debacle and the poor hybrid optimization of the original 2013.

Edited March 16, 2017 by raadsel

[ptjones]

raadsel did you read Post 22 from other NIRO comparison theard?

 

I test drove a KIA NIRO FE from Thornton Road Kia in Lithia Springs, GA for a 27 mi. test drive, temp 66*F/no wind, 10m. HWY and 17 mi.,  35-40 mph City getting 54.4 mpg which is very good.  BTW I don't like the tires, they don't inspire confidence under hard cornering like the CMAX and probably the Touring's wider tires.

I was hoping to duplicate the route with my CMAX, but the roads the Salesman took me on aren't on my GPS's so I ended up driving SR's at 50-55mph for 28 mi, but still managed to get 55.3mpg., I think I lost about 5mpg because of the difference.  :sad: At 35-40 mph I should be getting 65-80mpg, at 50-55mph, 55-65MPG.                            

 

Bottom line My 2013 CMAX SEL gets better MPG's than the the most fuel efficient KIA NIRO FE.  :)

The 2017 CMAX got 46.3 mpg in the rain. :) 

 

Paul

[raadsel]

 

raadsel did you read Post 22 from other NIRO comparison theard?

 

I test drove a KIA NIRO FE from Thornton Road Kia in Lithia Springs, GA for a 27 mi. test drive, temp 66*F/no wind, 10m. HWY and 17 mi.,  35-40 mph City getting 54.4 mpg which is very good.  BTW I don't like the tires, they don't inspire confidence under hard cornering like the CMAX and probably the Touring's wider tires.

I was hoping to duplicate the route with my CMAX, but the roads the Salesman took me on aren't on my GPS's so I ended up driving SR's at 50-55mph for 28 mi, but still managed to get 55.3mpg., I think I lost about 5mpg because of the difference.  :sad: At 35-40 mph I should be getting 65-80mpg, at 50-55mph, 55-65MPG.                            

 

Bottom line My 2013 CMAX SEL gets better MPG's than the the most fuel efficient KIA NIRO FE.  :)

The 2017 CMAX got 46.3 mpg in the rain. :) 

 

Paul

 

 

You mean with you driving your 2013 C-Max, that you know exactly how to drive, is broken in, and you've made modifications to got better gas mileage than a brand new Kia Niro that you had never driven before. Not to mention you aren't accounting for things like exactly the same route, SoC, etc. I'd also suggest that, with how bound and determined you appear to be to prove the C-Max can replecate the Niro's numbers, that you (unconsciously) did not drive the Niro as effeciently as you did the C-Max. The fact remains, the Fuelly average for the C-max after several years remains fairly close to the 40mpg EPA numbers. To this point, it appears we are seeing something similar with the Fuelly numbers for the Niro, they are close to the Niro's EPA numbers; though we will have to see how the Niro does as it is broken in and we get more data points.

 

If we really want to compare, I'd say we need to compare your C-Max numbers with the numbers Wayne Gerdes got out of the Niro. The fact is that, just as you said most people wouldn't be able to equal the numbers Wayne got from the Niro, we've seen that no one on this board (that I can recall) can get the same numbers you do from the C-Max. I'd love to see a test between you and Wayne, with you in the C-Max -- that would be a fascinating test. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by raadsel

[plus 3 golfer]

raadsel, have you looked at the Niro torque and hp curves in your link above in detail?   It looks "fishy".  At 1000 rpm the Niro combined torque is shown to be 195 ftlb or 264 nm from 1000 to 4000 rpm.  The electric motor specs from Kia shows only 125 ft -lb (169 nm) of torque.  So, it's highly likely that the the motor torque is constant 125 ft lb from 1000 rpm to 4000 rpm (this would be typical for an induction motor).  The curve at 1000 rpm then should likely start at around 168 nm not 264 nm as shown in the curve.  The Niro curve should then likely ramp up to 264 nm at 4000 rpm because of ICE torque be added to the traction motor torque as rpm increases.

 

I saw this curve prior when looking at the C-Max curve and didn't post it because I believe it is in error.  If the Niro is quicker or the same as the C-Max at low speeds up to 30 mph as you believe (is there any data on this?), it's likely because it's significanatly lighter than the C-Max.  I agree that the ICE torque in the C-Max vs the Niro will likely allow the C-Max  to accelerate faster than the Niro at higher speeds. 

 

The problem with curves from this linked sight is that the curves are derived from manufacturers' specs which is put into a software program to simulate the curves.  This certainly can lead to erroneous curves.  

[Telerisk]

I test drove the Niro LX....I own a 2016 C-Max SEL.  What I noticed immediately was how it accelerated from a stop....it just seems sluggish.   I have learned to be light on the acceleration Pedal when coming off a stop.....to allow my C-Max to push the weight of the car in a forward motion which is where most cars consume the most gas...getting the mass moving.  That is how I drove the Niro.  The difference was the Niro seemed to momentarily shrug.  Reading the Niro's owners Manual it actually points out that when first driving the Niro you will notice this shrug and it will improve during the first 1,500 miles of driving as the Transmission Optimizes.  I tried it in Sports Mode, there was a significant difference....but in that Mode you are required to manual shift the Transmission thru the Gears...you get to choose when to shift...this of course will impact your Gas Mileage.  As to the lack of separate Starting battery,  there is a button on the Niro that is to be used if its Chargeable battery is unable to provide battery Startup Power; my guess is the chargeable battery has a cell saved for such an issue.

 

Overall I liked the drive and the Price.  Like another Poster wrote, I would need to test drive the car again before I would purchase it.....I need to get my impression of that shrug startup out of my mind....that is what I came away with after driving the car.  It almost felt like in my mind, a Hesitation start where my Body was moving forward and for a split second, the car was not.  I did try accelarating hard from a Stop, and the startup hesitation was not Noticable...guessing it would be because the gas engine kicked in immediately therefore no hand off from Elec to gas.

 

What surprised me was the Niro didn't have a Hands Free Rear hatch opening.....I have that on the 2016 C-Max, what a Pleasure when your hands are full and you need to put groceries in the rear Cargo area.  

 

The Dashboard seemed to have many more display looks than the C-Max.  I found many displays similar.  The Hybrid operation display showing how Power\Recharging is taking place, you can get that on the center large screen, or, on the Display directly in front of the steering wheel, although a much smaller display.   It has the end of trip statistics like the C-Max....a Nice feature.  

 

I like the smooth acceleration with no shifting, I did hear and feel the shifting of the DCT on the Niro....but it in no way was a I wouldn't buy.  

 

I did like the pricing which on the LX model....gave me all the Features I would want at a much lower price than the C-Max which would require the Titanium Model.  I have asked my local Kia dealer to keep an eye out for the Niro LX in Red with the Technologist Package that adds Side, rear, front warnings and  adaptive Braking features.

 

As to 2018; Ford has announced the C-max name will disappear....and the vehicle will be re-Labeled a Ford Edge...so the name goes away, the vehicle goes on.  

 

Summary, the Niro may be a choice for me if I want to buy in 2017 as I would not Buy a 2017 C-Max given its Name will disappear in the 2018 model year.  The 2016 C-Max is my first purchase of a Hybrid and I have no regrets, my wife and I love driving the car and Love its results.....averaging 45MPG in mixed driving.    

[ptjones]

You mean with you driving your 2013 C-Max, that you know exactly how to drive, is broken in, and you've made modifications to got better gas mileage than a brand new Kia Niro that you had never driven before. Not to mention you aren't accounting for things like exactly the same route, SoC, etc. I'd also suggest that, with how bound and determined you appear to be to prove the C-Max can replecate the Niro's numbers, that you (unconsciously) did not drive the Niro as effeciently as you did the C-Max. Are you reading my Posts? I got 54.4mpg in the NIRO FE which is 4.4mpg better than EPA. The fact remains, the Fuelly average for the C-max after several years remains fairly close to the 40mpg EPA numbers. To this point, it appears we are seeing something similar with the Fuelly numbers for the Niro, they are close to the Niro's EPA numbers; though we will have to see how the Niro does as it is broken in and we get more data points. Current NIRO Fuelly with 5 NIRO's is 43.6 mpg

 

If we really want to compare, I'd say we need to compare your C-Max numbers with the numbers Wayne Gerdes got out of the Niro.  We have already had this conversation, I talked to BOB the other driver and he said they drove slow on the HWY to get those numbers, no one in their right mind would do this on a regular bases. :sad:

The fact is that, just as you said most people wouldn't be able to equal the numbers Wayne got from the Niro, we've seen that no one on this board (that I can recall) can get the same numbers you do from the C-Max. I'm guessing you never jointed the 600+ mile Club, there are 32 members on there with 50+ mpg tanks,  obviously I'm not the only one. :)

 

 I'd love to see a test between you and Wayne, with you in the C-Max -- that would be a fascinating test.  And Wayne driving a CMAX too, A lot of Fun. :) 

Now look who's Bias, right off the start the CMAX is quicker, I have driven 3 NIRO's now.  Are you trying to tell us you didn't notice a difference between CMAX and NIRO from 0-30 mph?  Here is a NIRO YouTube video 0-60 mph test with ECO Mode 11.5 sec. and Sport Mode 11.4sec.  http://www.tflcar.com/2017/02/fast-2017-kia-niro-hybrid-0-60-mph/ 

With 205-60R16 the NIRO has a softer ride than My CMAX with 50psi tires, but I like the light feel of the steering wheel and precise directional stability of the CMAX. The NIRO feels a little spongy from the bigger side walls.  For me the CMAX just handles better than the NIRO, I don't like sliding the tires. :sad:

 

My considerations for a new car is it has to be as good as the one I'm driving or better and the NIRO doesn't do anything better. The exterior is fine, interior is a little cheap  looking, and I like the Smart Gauge better with more info to improve MPG's.  It looks like to me I could get CMAX Titanium for a $1000 less than a NIRO Touring.  FORD would probably give more for a trade in. :) 

 

Tomorrow I'm doing another test drive with a Prius/Highlander Hybrid Friend driving the NIRO and me following in my CMAX to get an accurate comparison on fuel mileage. :)   

 

Paul      PS: I'm working on a video on How to get good Gas Mileage in a FORD CMAX/Fusion Hybrid that shows exactly how to do it.There is no reason why anyone willing to pay attention to their driving can't get as good fuel mileage as I do. I'm not keeping it a secret.  :) FWIW 

[nsteblay]

I test drove the Niro and found it sluggish compared to the CMax. I've really come to appreciate the CMax's quick acceleration when driving on the crazy Minneapolis freeways during rush hours.  I just felt I wouldn't be happy with the Niro, similar to experiences I've had with Toyota Prius. I found a new 2016 CMax SE with Sync 3 for 17K and bought it.  I am sure the more expensive Niro would have gotten better mileage but I'll get 42-43 with the CMax and greatly appreciate the visibility, ride and acceleration.  Sync 3 is nice also with Android Auto and Apple Car Play.

[stevedebi]

Not sure where the information on a 2018 C-Max came from, here is what I found:

 

Ford will stop selling the C-Max in the U.S. after production ends at Michigan Assembly Plant in 2018, with the Model E effectively fulfilling its role.

[ptjones]

Not sure where the information on a 2018 C-Max came from, here is what I found:

 

Ford will stop selling the C-Max in the U.S. after production ends at Michigan Assembly Plant in 2018, with the Model E effectively fulfilling its role.

Where did you find that info? I'm going to the Atlanta Car Show next weekend and see if FORD has any info. :) 

 

Paul 

[Telerisk]

My understanding is the 2017 C-Max is the last time this Car will be named C-Max.  Starting with the 2018 Model run it will be re-branded a Ford Edge Hybrid.  A prior Plan had been starting with the 2018 model to build the C-Max in Mexico continuing with the C-Max name.  Ford had announced before the administration reported it saved jobs at Ford that it had changed its Plan and would continue to build this Hybrid in Michigan in the current Plant it now builds the C-Max in, but, as I wrote, would re-brand it in its current Edge Line.  Ford has announced that they want to get real aggressive in the Hybrid arena and go after the Prius and other Hybrids to top their sales.  Ford has made this statement in the past and never acted on it, so its a wait and see thing.  Ford has done a terrible job in my Home Start of advertising the C-Max....advertising was non-existence. Ford dealers in the Tampa, Fl area told me they didn't want the C-Max on their lots because they could not sell them and only took the ones Ford forced upon them.  You cannot sell a Car if people have no idea it even exists.  I found out about the Vehicle from a friend who owned one.  I did contact Ford Marketing...who told me 90% of the C-Max's they produced...shipped to California and the Washington, DC markets....leaving 10% to the other states.  I shopped my 2016 from November 2015 and purchased in April 2016....and that was because their were no 2016 in local dealers lots.....the one I purchased arrived on a dealers lot and I purchased it w/i 3 weeks of its arrival.   

[ptjones]

I did a test of a KIA NIRO EX at KIA of LaGrange, GA with my Prius/Highlander Hybrid friend Tony driving the NIRO and me driving my CMAX behind them so we would have as close as possible driving conditions comparison of MPG's for both cars. Tony said it drove very similar to his Highlander Hybrid concerning Throttle response and general Hybrid operation. We went 11.7 miles, 5 miles FWY and 6.7 miles 45-35mph city to get 48.4 mpg for NIRO EX and 52.8mpg /7 mi. EV for my 2013 CMAX SEL.  As far as conditions go it was 58F*, Salesman had the Niro running for around ten minutes while he explained all the features, got seat and mirrors adjusted. The last thing the Salesman did was reset the trip gauge to start the test drive.  I just followed behind them, but not to close and I didn't get separated from them during the test drive so everything worked as hoped. :)

 

What I have learned is KIA NIRO gets very close to EPA numbers, but My CMAX driven the way FORD Engineers Designed it to driven can easily do as good.  It is unfortunate that FORD's CMAX Manual only says drive smoothly  to improve Gas mileage, instead of how the Engineers designed to be driven. It took a number of CMAX drivers on the CMAX Forum w/OBDII gauges to figure out the most efficient way to drive the car. You need to drive more aggressively( 2 Bar acceleration method) than a Prius/NIRO, this charges the HVB quicker so you spend less time with the ICE running and more EV time.   For those that think CMAX is like Prius/ NIRO Hybirds, well it isn't.  It has the same Hybrid system as CMAX Energi Plugin just without the big HVB and Plug.  You can go 85 mph in EV and rarely does the ICE and EV work at the same time. If the ICE is running, it is moving the car and charging the battery. If you let off the accelerator the EV takes over and ICE stops.  I'm satisfied I've covered everything I was hoping to cover and see no need to test anymore. :)

 

Paul 

[raadsel]

raadsel, have you looked at the Niro torque and hp curves in your link above in detail?   It looks "fishy".  At 1000 rpm the Niro combined torque is shown to be 195 ftlb or 264 nm from 1000 to 4000 rpm.  The electric motor specs from Kia shows only 125 ft -lb (169 nm) of torque.  So, it's highly likely that the the motor torque is constant 125 ft lb from 1000 rpm to 4000 rpm (this would be typical for an induction motor).  The curve at 1000 rpm then should likely start at around 168 nm not 264 nm as shown in the curve.  The Niro curve should then likely ramp up to 264 nm at 4000 rpm because of ICE torque be added to the traction motor torque as rpm increases.

 

I saw this curve prior when looking at the C-Max curve and didn't post it because I believe it is in error.  If the Niro is quicker or the same as the C-Max at low speeds up to 30 mph as you believe (is there any data on this?), it's likely because it's significanatly lighter than the C-Max.  I agree that the ICE torque in the C-Max vs the Niro will likely allow the C-Max  to accelerate faster than the Niro at higher speeds. 

 

The problem with curves from this linked sight is that the curves are derived from manufacturers' specs which is put into a software program to simulate the curves.  This certainly can lead to erroneous curves.  

 

Whether the graph is 100% accurate or not, it shows something I was trying to say earlier -- the Niro's engine is designed to provide torque across a wider range of RPMs to match better with the geared transmission they are using. The similar engine in a Kia Rio would have 138 HP; they tuned the engine so that -- even with being Atkinsonized -- it would help with the torque (as well as giving better fuel economy and thermal efficiency). 

 

I can't recall where I saw the 3.3 0-30 time for the Niro -- though the above link (automative-catalog.com) shows 3.1 second 0-30. For the C-Max, I seem to recall the number coming from Car & Driver.

 

Again, unless you put the Kia into Sport mode, the C-Max will feel faster because of the way Kia retards the throttle response.

[raadsel]

My understanding is the 2017 C-Max is the last time this Car will be named C-Max.  Starting with the 2018 Model run it will be re-branded a Ford Edge Hybrid.  A prior Plan had been starting with the 2018 model to build the C-Max in Mexico continuing with the C-Max name.  Ford had announced before the administration reported it saved jobs at Ford that it had changed its Plan and would continue to build this Hybrid in Michigan in the current Plant it now builds the C-Max in, but, as I wrote, would re-brand it in its current Edge Line.  Ford has announced that they want to get real aggressive in the Hybrid arena and go after the Prius and other Hybrids to top their sales.  Ford has made this statement in the past and never acted on it, so its a wait and see thing.  Ford has done a terrible job in my Home Start of advertising the C-Max....advertising was non-existence. Ford dealers in the Tampa, Fl area told me they didn't want the C-Max on their lots because they could not sell them and only took the ones Ford forced upon them.  You cannot sell a Car if people have no idea it even exists.  I found out about the Vehicle from a friend who owned one.  I did contact Ford Marketing...who told me 90% of the C-Max's they produced...shipped to California and the Washington, DC markets....leaving 10% to the other states.  I shopped my 2016 from November 2015 and purchased in April 2016....and that was because their were no 2016 in local dealers lots.....the one I purchased arrived on a dealers lot and I purchased it w/i 3 weeks of its arrival.   

 

I can't see Ford renaming the C-Max as an Edge; the Edge is a larger vehicle. If they were simply going to rename the C-Max, it would likely be the Escape, since it is the closest in size to (though still a bit larger) the C-Max. Additionally, styling-wise, the Escape has a similar body style to the C-Max. I suspect that what you heard/saw is that Ford is looking at making an Edge Hybrid that will "replace" the C-Max on the production line at the Michigan Assembly Plant -- but it will be based on the current Edge body. 

[raadsel]

Now look who's Bias, right off the start the CMAX is quicker, I have driven 3 NIRO's now.  Are you trying to tell us you didn't notice a difference between CMAX and NIRO from 0-30 mph?  Here is a NIRO YouTube video 0-60 mph test with ECO Mode 11.5 sec. and Sport Mode 11.4sec.  http://www.tflcar.com/2017/02/fast-2017-kia-niro-hybrid-0-60-mph/

With 205-60R16 the NIRO has a softer ride than My CMAX with 50psi tires, but I like the light feel of the steering wheel and precise directional stability of the CMAX. The NIRO feels a little spongy from the bigger side walls.  For me the CMAX just handles better than the NIRO, I don't like sliding the tires. :sad:

 

My considerations for a new car is it has to be as good as the one I'm driving or better and the NIRO doesn't do anything better. The exterior is fine, interior is a little cheap  looking, and I like the Smart Gauge better with more info to improve MPG's.  It looks like to me I could get CMAX Titanium for a $1000 less than a NIRO Touring.  FORD would probably give more for a trade in. :)

 

Tomorrow I'm doing another test drive with a Prius/Highlander Hybrid Friend driving the NIRO and me following in my CMAX to get an accurate comparison on fuel mileage. :)   

 

Paul      PS: I'm working on a video on How to get good Gas Mileage in a FORD CMAX/Fusion Hybrid that shows exactly how to do it.There is no reason why anyone willing to pay attention to their driving can't get as good fuel mileage as I do. I'm not keeping it a secret.  :) FWIW 

 

My issue with what you are claiming about the Niro is that you discount just how good of fuel economy people might be able to get. I understand you (or a friend), driving a car new to you that has less than 20 miles, does not get as good of mileage as you can get in your C-Max in a relatively short drive. Though, just for perspective, I saw this the other day -- a car reviewer for Fox News in Dallas averaged over 56 mpg driving a Niro Touring (43 mpg combined) for a week. This wasn't a hyper-miler, in fact, the car reported he drove the car normally, not economically.

 

As for TFLcar, if you've watched their reviews before you'd know that they are in Colorado and do their 0-60 tests at over a mile in altitude -- this causes their 0-60 times to be one to two seconds slower than other reported times, which are typically done at sea level. There is no reason to believe that the Niro does not have a sub-10 second 0-60 time, which is still about 1.5 seconds slower than the C-Max Hybrid. But, up to about 30 mph the acceleration (if neither is in Eco mode) is about 3.3 seconds for both vehicles. In Eco mode, both will feel slower (particularly if you are used to a 2013 C-Max, which does not have an Eco mode) because of the way throttle response is delayed in Eco mode.

 

As for the 600 mile club, that means very little actually. To get 600 miles from a tank of gas in a C-Max only requires a 42.8 mpg average. Additionally, it is one thing to get a single tank at over 50 mph, it is another thing to do it consistently. I've explained my issues with fuel economy; a combination of several short trips and relatively high speed limits on the streets around me. Some of my short trips mpg seem a bit crazy -- I've had trips where I was under 20 mpg, with a trip only a couple of miles in the cold, with a cold engine; and I've seen trips over 100 mpg -- same type of trip as the low fuel economy, just with a charged battery and warm engine. Looking at my fuelly, there are at least a couple of times I could have hit the 600 mile club, just that I filled the tank too soon(gassed up with a quarter tank or more left).

 

As to what constitutes "better," that is in the eyes of the buyer. As I've stated, I'm not sure I want a Niro but, based on my short drive, it isn't out of the picture; by contrast, the 2017 C-Max is definitely one of the finalists. For me, an advantage of the Niro is the Smart Cruise Control -- also, I can see the advantage of having Autonomous braking; the Niro having those is plus for the Niro over the C-Max. The better power of the C-Max, while still being fuel efficient, and the better tires are pluses for the C-Max over the Niro. As you've pointed out, the C-Max also has the auto wipers and power liftgate -- though to be honest, the liftgate is not a big deal for me. While it can be nice in a few situations, there are other situations when it has annoyed me how slow it can be or when I've accidentally closed the liftgate by moving my foot while in the middle of loading. The Niro has advantages with the space for a spare tire under the trunk, the telescoping sun visors, and the power folding side mirrors.

[Telerisk]

I always get the 2 confused....you probably are right in that it will become an Escape Hybrid...   because what I read about this re-branding mentioned that the C-Max size-wise would be a good fit into the Model line and do better with a Name that is better known....  Thanks for pointing that out

[stevedebi]

Where did you find that info? I'm going to the Atlanta Car Show next weekend and see if FORD has any info. :)

 

Paul 

You know, that was a direct cut and paste, but I was in a hurry and didn't put in the URL. So of course I can't find it now.

[Telerisk]

Might this link help    http://www.autonews.com/article/20160815/OEM04/308159952/flood-of-fresh-fords-starts-in-18   it dated August 2016

[ptjones]

You know, that was a direct cut and paste, but I was in a hurry and didn't put in the URL. So of course I can't find it now.

I hate when that happens.LOL

 

Might this link help    http://www.autonews.com/article/20160815/OEM04/308159952/flood-of-fresh-fords-starts-in-18   it dated August 2016

I'm afraid this is old news dated August 2016 and building Model E in Mexico, I'm wondering if there is going to be a 2018 CMAX, their running out of time. :headscratch:

 

Paul