When can you drive the car hard? (how to tell if warmed up)

[ptjones]

And as I said before, when I monitored with my web cam, I saw positions between closed and open.  I do have a new laptop so I should be able to record the operations now.  But, I believe the ForScan data and when I monitor data, I can clearly see that the inferred / commanded shutter operation does affect ECT.

 

I just went out to the garage and verified that the ForScan app is reading the position of the grille shutters.  Start car with AC OFF, grille shutters are closed.  Push AC ON, and grille shutters open to 100%. This tracked the commanded and inferred grille shutter positions in ForScan.  It's too much of a hassle to video record the shutters while driving.  I have no doubt that ForScan is correctly reporting the grille shutter positions.

I got my wife to help me video the shutter operations with WebCam, LapTop, ScanGaugeII and IPhone 6+.  I have YouTube links to two videos.   You can see shutters open at 215-216*F going 65 mph and close at 214*F.  Also see A/C vs shutter operation when turned on and off. These videos were done with both Center and Lower Grills covered up and OT of 85*F.  Needless to say my wife was a real trooper to put up with those temps and also covered up with black material to get the glare down on the Lap Top.  BTW I used a piece of masking tape to make it easier to see the shutters move. Not a professional job, but I think you will get the Idea. :)

 

 

Video 1:

Video 2:

If you have a problem you can search you tube for 2013 CMAX Shutter Test

 

Paul

Edited May 25, 2016 by ptjones

[plus 3 golfer]

I got my wife to help me video the shutter operations with WebCam, LapTop, ScanGaugeII and IPhone 6+.  I have YouTube links to two videos.   You can see shutters open at 215-216*F going 65 mph and close at 214*F.  Also see A/C vs shutter operation when turned on and off. These videos were done with both Center and Lower Grills covered up and OT of 85*F.  Needless to say my wife was a real trooper to put up with those temps and also covered up with black material to get the glare down on the Lap Top.  BTW I used a piece of masking tape to make it easier to see the shutters move. Not a professional job, but I think you will get the Idea. :)

 

 

Video 1:

Video 2:

If you have a problem you can search you tube for 2013 CMAX Shutter Test

 

Paul

You need to remove the grille covers because the PCM computes an inferred position which no way can match actual operations with no air flow through the radiator.  So, the PCM appears to be constantly moving the shutters as it tries to match inferred with actual going from wide open to shut.  The PCM can't find anything that makes sense with the covers on and no air flow.

[ptjones]

PCM doesn't have anyway of knowing whether air is going through radiator or not . There is no feed back loop for shutter motor, one time I was trying to automate lower Grill Cover and managed to screw two of the shutters together, PCM never reported a problem. I figured out the problem myself.  WT is the main mover with speed having a minor effect on shutter position( open or closed) the couple of times that I have tested shutter operations.  BTW I find it difficult to get to 215*FWT with Grill Covers removed.  I wish you would do a video so we could see shutter operating.  If you need some help let me know, Thanks :)

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

PCM doesn't have anyway of knowing whether air is going through radiator or not . There is no feed back loop for shutter motor, one time I was trying to automate lower Grill Cover and managed to screw two of the shutters together, PCM never reported a problem. I figured out the problem myself.  WT is the main mover with speed having a minor effect on shutter position( open or closed) the couple of times that I have tested shutter operations.  BTW I find it difficult to get to 215*FWT with Grill Covers removed.  I wish you would do a video so we could see shutter operating.  If you need some help let me know, Thanks :)

 

Paul

The PCM can infer air flow by using speed and shutter position. Again, take the grille covers off and also get the forscan app.  There's no reason to believe ForScan data is incorrect.  The operation  of the grille shutters correlates with ECT, speed and temperature.  Just look at my graphs.  

 

See this post for what the Ford Service Manual says about the grille shutters.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Plus 3 Golfer

[joe]

Like I said, I wasn't comfortable going 10,000 miles or about it year without taking it in. I hope that you like your car, it's very good at what it is but performance is just OK. Maybe a Focus SVT might have been a better choice for you.

I'm not sure if any one has pointed out the obvious, but 10,000 miles is not 10,000 miles of engine wear.  The engine only runs about 60% of the time (my C-Max has 36K miles of which 14,500 miles was electric).

[markd]

I know that, I changed my oil at 5000 miles, it was nine months after I bought it and the first time back at the dealership. I changed it at 15000 and will again at 25000. I don't really know if 10000 miles is even nesasary.

Edited May 26, 2016 by markd

[mlsstl]

Keep in mind that things do change over the years. The use of break-in oil to capture metal debris from the machining process (and therefore the need for an early first change of the oil) dates back many years to older production processes. Modern manufacturing and quality control techniques give high precision tolerances that used to be impossible and leave just-manufactured engines much cleaner than they used to be. (Also keep in mind that oil filters really do keep debris out of circulation.)

 

However, it is human nature for most of us to hang on to the rules we learned early in life and are reluctant to let go in the face of change or new knowledge, whether it is how to break in a car engine or another subject. For me, I'm willing to follow the manufacturer's instructions. In roughly 45 years of car ownership, I can't say I've ever had a malfunction that I feel I could blame on my not doing more than the maintenance schedule called for. But, if someone else wants to do more for their car, its no skin off my teeth.

Edited May 26, 2016 by mlsstl

[jackalopetx]

I'm not sure if any one has pointed out the obvious, but 10,000 miles is not 10,000 miles of engine wear.  The engine only runs about 60% of the time (my C-Max has 36K miles of which 14,500 miles was electric).

 

Yes someone did bring that up, and I pointed out that it's not easy on an engine being constantly stopped and started. Plus mine often doesn't warm up on my commute

[plus 3 golfer]

..and I pointed out that it's not easy on an engine being constantly stopped and started. Plus mine often doesn't warm up on my commute

I'm not sure that is totally correct with respect to justifying more frequent OCI on the C-Max.  ICE is spun up when the car is moving.  The traction motor is virtually always run to get the car moving. The shift of load from the traction motor to ICE is not instantaneous or abrupt.  These "many" starts are not on a cold engine.  The traction motor assists ICE frequently especially when torque demand increases significantly.  

 

I know on my 4.3 mile trips to the Y with ambient temp in the 20s, ICE may shut down a few times and ECT reaches around 120F-140 F within a mile. I doubt there is much if any additional wear on ICE at this operating temperature.  I've never seen a study that says running at 120 F to 140F wears an engine faster than operating at 180F.  FE and emissions generally suffer at low operating temperatures.  ICE shut down generally happens after 120 F when going down hill or coming to a stop provided HVB is above about 55-60% SOC (not the battery symbol on the dash).  The maximum SOC is about 70%.  The 1.4 kWh HVB never is charged to 100% SOC.

 

Change your oil as often as you want to but I doubt this rationale -  "engine being constantly stopped and started"  is a justifiable reason as to needing to change oil more frequently on the C-Max.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Plus 3 Golfer

[jackalopetx]

I'm not sure that is totally correct with respect to justifying more frequent OCI on the C-Max.  ICE is spun up when the car is moving.  The traction motor is virtually always run to get the car moving. The shift of load from the traction motor to ICE is not instantaneous or abrupt.  These "many" starts are not on a cold engine.  The traction motor assists ICE frequently especially when torque demand increases significantly.  

 

I know on my 4.3 mile trips to the Y with ambient temp in the 20s, ICE may shut down a few times and ECT reaches around 120F-140 F within a mile. I doubt there is much if any additional wear on ICE at this operating temperature.  I've never seen a study that says running at 120 F to 140F wears an engine faster than operating at 180F.  FE and emissions generally suffer at low operating temperatures.  ICE shut down generally happens after 120 F when going down hill or coming to a stop provided HVB is above about 55-60% SOC (not the battery symbol on the dash).  The maximum SOC is about 70%.  The 1.4 kWh HVB never is charged to 100% SOC.

 

Change your oil as often as you want to but I doubt this rationale -  "engine being constantly stopped and started"  is a justifiable reason as to needing to change oil more frequently on the C-Max.

 

I've never seen any study ever on engine or oil wear at various temperatures. Automakers won't even admit that an engine needs to be warmed up.   Where can we read these studies?

Edited May 26, 2016 by jackalopetx

[livesmith]

Ford will admit to there being an issue of health if the engine is not reaching high enough operating temperature long enough.  The hybrid model may not be the same, but on the Energi, if you don't get enough trips with the ICE running long enough/warm enough you'll be put in "Oil Maintenance Mode" and forced to use your ICE for some period of time(seems to be days) to get things cleaned up.  I've seen it in the manual and heard a number of people in the winter having gotten stuck into it.

 

I believe the biggest issue is some sort of condensation issue, though I suppose there could be any sort of contaminants that might be getting into the oil and not getting a chance to be burnt/steamed off...

 

So I would agree that hybrids that are designed to be started and stopped all the time shouldn't have accelerated wear like if you had a "normal" car that you were stopping and starting.

 

Then again...  There is an ever increasing amount of "normal" cars that are getting start-stop systems that DO shut the engine off at stop lights...  So maybe there just isn't that much trouble with starts anymore...

 

But as far as running the car at frequent temps under like 150F, I'd say that's more likely to accumulate crud in the oil.  As to just how much/how bad that is, who knows.

 

 

Personally, I'll just wait till my Oil light comes on every 20K miles in my Energi and put a good filter and Mobil 1 Extended in it.  At that point the ICE will maybe have 5-10K miles or so on it, but it will probably be closer to 2 years time.

[stevedebi]

Just for a note here. The ICE starts by having the transmission spin the engine up to 1000 RPM, at which point gas is applied. It happens very fast. But there is no starter motor, and I think this is easier on the engine. They have been using this technique since the Escape Hybrid came out 11 years ago. Toyota uses the same method.

[livesmith]

Just for a note here. The ICE starts by having the transmission spin the engine up to 1000 RPM, at which point gas is applied. It happens very fast. But there is no starter motor, and I think this is easier on the engine. They have been using this technique since the Escape Hybrid came out 11 years ago. Toyota uses the same method.

 

I've also noticed on my Energi at least that it seems to do all it can to keep you from exceeding 1000-1500rpm for around 30-60 seconds on a cold engine.

[stevedebi]

I've also noticed on my Energi at least that it seems to do all it can to keep you from exceeding 1000-1500rpm for around 30-60 seconds on a cold engine.

I believe that is common to both vehicles as well. They are trying to give the engine time to warm up a bit, by using the EV boost.

[jackalopetx]

When you look at the trip counter and it says "miles: 2000 ev miles: 800", is it counting only miles where the engine is turned off as "ev miles"? Or does that include when the motor is helping the engine? 

[stevedebi]

When you look at the trip counter and it says "miles: 2000 ev miles: 800", is it counting only miles where the engine is turned off as "ev miles"? Or does that include when the motor is helping the engine? 

It means the vehicle was operating on electric only, i.e. "EV" = "Electric Vehicle".