It's not your imagination

[darrelld]

With the assurance that I have no "agenda" other than informing myself about the C-MAX, and at the risk of waving a red flag in front of some forum members, I'm sharing a report (via the LA Times) from Consumer Reports on C-MAX and Ford Fusion hybrid gas mileage. As is their custom, CR testers bought their cars from dealerships. Their tests on the C-MAX and FFH are still ongoing, but they're reporting that after driving these cars 2,000 miles each in various conditions, and "adjusting for ambient temperature" they were unable to achieve anything close to EPA's mileage ratings for either car. CR reports that the C-MAX returned 35 mpg in city driving, 38 on the highway and 37 mpg overall.CR also said that compared to other vehicles they've tested against EPA ratings, this was an unusually large discrepancy. The LA Times also tested the car and couldn't do better than 37.5 mpg overall. So if gas mileage were my only consideration when shopping for a hybrid to replace my "gas guzzling" '07 RAV4 V6, the Prius v would win hands down. But it's not. I'm also looking for power and a smooth, quiet ride. In other words, once its reliability has been proven in real-world driving, I could be quite happy with a C-MAX, even if its real-world fuel economy doesn't measure up to the EPA rating. (Was that rating supposed to be "close enough for government work"?)

 

 

Consumer Reports news already posted here;

 

http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/index.php?/topic/646-ford-hybrids-fall-short-of-fuel-claims-consumer-reports/

[Aptos Driver]

Consumer Reports news already posted here;

 

http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/index.php?/topic/646-ford-hybrids-fall-short-of-fuel-claims-consumer-reports/

I just saw it; didn't check to see if one of you guys had already posted it. I see you're averaging better than 42 mpg over 840 miles so far. That ain't shabby. Are you driving "normally" or with an extra-light touch on the accelerator? And are your roads and highways mostly flat, or do you have frequent changes in elevation?

[FoutsNC]

I am driving "normally" for me, with a lead foot.  I really expected to putt around when I got this car even though I am not known to do so.  I had driven a Prius before and putting around was about all it would allow you to do and that's what I expected.  Personally, I just cannot stand the look and feel of Toyota's products.  I owned one for about a year and paid dearly to get rid of it.  With the C-Max, I am taking off at lights (Tach runs just below the yellow area) and going up to about 5 miles over the speed limit.  At this point, I will usually set Cruise (if I am thinking about it) and let the cruise do the work.  We also live in a fairly hilly area and my commute is only 9 miles to and from work (take into account for heating needs) with the commute home being in the dark (lighting needed).  For the first 1300 miles, I was averaging around 34-36 which was a little less than I was hoping for.  I now have 1700 miles on it and the milage is really changing for the better.  Over the last 2 weeks I have averaged 42.6MPG.  The temps have been fairly cool and I have been running the heated seats and regular heat.  I am using regular 10-15% gas from Sheetz and haven't changed the oil.  I am really happy with the milage I am getting.  The other great thing about this car is lining up at a red light with a Prius.  I will keep my somewhat lower MPGs for the performance and comfort difference.  If you decide to get the C-Max, I don't think you will be disappointed.  I will also mention that I have never gotten anywhere close to EPA rated milage with any car that I have purchased (which has been quite a few) and the Prius was under 40MPG in the trip that I made in it last year.

[Aptos Driver]

If you decide to get the C-Max, I don't think you will be disappointed.  I will also mention that I have never gotten anywhere close to EPA rated milage with any car that I have purchased (which has been quite a few) and the Prius was under 40MPG in the trip that I made in it last year.

 

We're actually doing better with our '12 Camry Hybrid than the EPA estimate . My 3.5 L, 268 hp V6 4WD RAV4's overall mileage matches the EPA estimate and I've mostly exceeded EPA on highway mileage. But it's more car than I really need, as it's turned out. I bought it expecting to use it as my ski car in the winter (we "go to the snow" in the mountains out here), but on my first trip to Tahoe in Jan. '08, I fell on ice apres ski, and shattered my hip socket. Now I have a hip replacement and there's no way I'm going skiing again with that. So I'm "putting" around in this overpowered small SUV with 4WD I don't need. That's in part what's propelling me toward replacing it with a hybrid car sooner than later. Even though that doesn't make much sense economically -- the RAV doesn't even have 45,000 miles on it yet -- I now want a hybrid replacement because I've enjoyed driving the Camry hybrid so much -- it's my wife's car. I've never been able to warm up to the Prius. The C-MAX would be ideal for putting around, but can also hold its own on the road. I really enjoyed the C-MAX I test drove the other day (a fully loaded SEL). The only question about it that remains for me is its reliability. I'll be watching this forum to see what, if any, bugs it turns out to have.

[darrelld]

I just saw it; didn't check to see if one of you guys had already posted it. I see you're averaging better than 42 mpg over 840 miles so far. That ain't shabby. Are you driving "normally" or with an extra-light touch on the accelerator? And are your roads and highways mostly flat, or do you have frequent changes in elevation?

My wife drives it 5 days a week and I drive 2 days. She pretty much drives it like she stole it, rocketing away from red lights tailgating the car in front of until she can pass. Even with her driving like that the lowest I have see the dash read is 40 mpg. I use more pulse and glide techniques with moderate accelerator input and anticipate traffic or stop lights returning as much energy as possible to the battery. Its an engineering challenge for me more than anything.

[jhritz]

Picked up mine Thursday night.  I turned on ECOcruise and the Empower level of information in the display settings.  I have had no problems staying in the low 40s so far.  The Empower setting makes it pretty easy to stay in EV mode or accelerate up to cruising speed before backing off on the throttle to let EV kick in.  There are several videos on Youtube that explain the various information displays available.  The other thing I've been experimenting with is the best setting for the highway part of my commute.  Between the battery charge/discharge arrows and the torque demand display, you ought to be able to figure out the sweet spot for setting the cruise control based on your combination of hills and valleys.  On the way to work today, 57 mph was the fastest I could cruise and get into EV mode on the declines.  Still trying to figure out how fast I can go and still get battery assist on inclines.  Finally, no one seems to have mentioned the hill descent button on the gear selector.  This gives you regen without having to hit the brakes.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdzIzzaQtgg

 

It's still early in the process and I'm hoping that Ford's solution isn't to change the throttle response to be closer to the way the Prius works.

[darrelld]

 

It's still early in the process and I'm hoping that Ford's solution isn't to change the throttle response to be closer to the way the Prius works.

 

It would be easy for Ford to remap the throttle and add an ECO setting to the left display like they do with TC. Turn it on if you want to max out your FE.

[ptjones]

Please don't ruin the performace, I'm aready getting 47.3MPG. I talked to my Ford Service Mgr today, they don't have to warranty the CMAX if any modifications have been made to the car.  I bought a ScanGuage to monitor engine function to be on the safe side. The grill cover isn't a permanent modification.

[CNCGeek]

It would be easy for Ford to remap the throttle and add an ECO setting to the left display like they do with TC. Turn it on if you want to max out your FE.

 

This seems like a very good option, and may help get the C-max's FE monkey off Ford's back - if it worked to get the real world FE closer to 47mpg.

[darrelld]

This seems like a very good option, and may help get the C-max's FE monkey off Ford's back - if it worked to get the real world FE closer to 47mpg.

 

What I have observed from Total KW in the Empower screen is how easy it is to consume larger than needed amounts of power unless you pay attention. The current throttle map is very sensitive, almost like the sport mode I have seen in the Toyota Hybrids.

[valkraider]

 I talked to my Ford Service Mgr today, they don't have to warranty the CMAX if any modifications have been made to the car.

 

That is absolutely not true.  In fact it violates US law.

 

HOWEVER, that said: they can make it extremely difficult for a vehicle owner.

 

Legally, the manufacturer has to prove that the modification *caused* the failure, and the burden of proof is on the manufacturer.

 

However, realistically the manufacturer can be a massive pain in the tush to a vehicle owner if this happens.  If your car has been denied warranty work due to a modification it is red-flagged in the manufacturers system.  Your VIN will *forever* be associated with this flag, and you can expect at least a debate or argument ANY TIME this vehicle is worked on.  Also, I guarantee Ford and GM have way more lawyers and a much larger legal budget, so regardless of what the law says you can be involved in a protracted drawn out battle that could suck you dry.  Finally, even if you win - you still may be without a car for a long time, or have to pay all sorts of "diagnostic" fees or other related costs.

 

Manufacturers can not legally prevent you from modifying a vehicle, even with warranty threats.   But be very careful because it just may not be worth it.  How much are you willing to fight if you need to?

 

That said, the bad PR is generally not worth it for a manufacturer to fight on small issues, but dealerships will often fight because they want the higher rates they can charge you for the repairs since warranty work pays the dealer less money.

 

For a big issue, Ford will absolutely not make any exceptions: if you install aftermarket performance parts on an engine and the engine blows, you're fighting or paying.  No way out of that one.  Don't think they can be hidden either, all the techs know how to spot the signs of aftermarket accessories - even after they are removed.

[ptjones]

That is absolutely not true.  In fact it violates US law.

 

HOWEVER, that said: they can make it extremely difficult for a vehicle owner.

 

Legally, the manufacturer has to prove that the modification *caused* the failure, and the burden of proof is on the manufacturer.

 

However, realistically the manufacturer can be a massive pain in the tush to a vehicle owner if this happens.  If your car has been denied warranty work due to a modification it is red-flagged in the manufacturers system.  Your VIN will *forever* be associated with this flag, and you can expect at least a debate or argument ANY TIME this vehicle is worked on.  Also, I guarantee Ford and GM have way more lawyers and a much larger legal budget, so regardless of what the law says you can be involved in a protracted drawn out battle that could suck you dry.  Finally, even if you win - you still may be without a car for a long time, or have to pay all sorts of "diagnostic" fees or other related costs.

 

Manufacturers can not legally prevent you from modifying a vehicle, even with warranty threats.   But be very careful because it just may not be worth it.  How much are you willing to fight if you need to?

 

That said, the bad PR is generally not worth it for a manufacturer to fight on small issues, but dealerships will often fight because they want the higher rates they can charge you for the repairs since warranty work pays the dealer less money.

 

For a big issue, Ford will absolutely not make any exceptions: if you install aftermarket performance parts on an engine and the engine blows, you're fighting or paying.  No way out of that one.  Don't think they can be hidden either, all the techs know how to spot the signs of aftermarket accessories - even after they are removed.

I think you are right , so that is why I bought the ScanGuage to monitor the temps to make sure I won't have any problems in the first place. For the summer time I will have a cover with a cut out for the radiator intake in grill,might need the extra air for AC.

[darrelld]

 

It's not my imagination on regular 10% ethanol.

[ptjones]

Good Job! I think the MPG's will keep getting better with the combination of car breaking in and driver getting better.

[ces001]

I have had my C-Max for 3 days now and am averaging 39.6 MPG so far, with about 300 miles on the odometer.  I would estimate that my driving conditions have be approx. 40% highway and 60% city driving so far.  I am confident that I will be averaging over 40 MPG after the break in period, and that is all that I really expected anyway.  I am especially pleased with the power and handling of my C-Max.  I did a lot of research and a few test drives (VW Golf & Hyundai Elantra) before deciding on the C-Max.  Even though great gas mileage was high on my priority list, I knew that I would not be happy in the long run with a car that could not get out of it's own way when fast acceleration and climbing steep inclines was necessary.  With the new C-Max I feel that I have the best of all worlds... great gas mileage, plenty of power, great handling and lots of room inside for my 6'-1" frame.

Edited December 10, 2012 by ces001

[stranger267]

I can only confirm my previous observations, after few middle - size drives (20 - 100 miles) over the mixture of freeways, highways, streets and mountains:

- 47 mpg is absolutely REAL mpg for the freeway. Conditions are VERY simple

* day time

* no wind, no rain, no water on the road

* end point elevation the same or lower then starting point elevation (very important)

* premium gas (if in CA) - I see  a difference in 2 - 4 mpg.

* climate is turned off for the first 5 minutes if car was cold (else car runs engine on 2000 rpm for the first 5 minutes to prodiuce a heat)

* no big up or down hills (100 feet ups and downs are OK, maybe even 200, through any UPS and Downs decrease mileage)

* !! KEEP ECO cruise on 50 - 60 mpg

* Have 2000 - 3000 total miles.

 

I got a few 47 - 49 mpg this way. Elevation and speed are 2 most important factors - I have Livermore, 400 feet elevation, and Walnut Creek, 100 feet elevation, WC - LVK is about 39 - 42mpg; LVK - WC is about 48 - 49 mpg if I keep speed low enough. Keep in mind that if it is uphill in one direction, average will not be 47 but lower.

 

The same in other trips.  Elevation is #1 factor, speed is #2 (if cruise > 63 mpg results will be 3 - 4 mpg lower because of EV mode limitation). Small highways are the best for mileage (where we can drive 60 mpg for a long time).  Unfortunately 63 mph EV limitatioin is too low for California as most lanes move with 65 - 70 mph speeds and so driving 63 is more difficult (vs. 68 - 70) and can create an obstacle for others /but it is only in middle load time; not a problem at night when not traffic flows are created, or in peak time when traffic is slower/. I think Ford should make this limit at least 68 mph and it could improve average mpg as it is almost always easy to keep 68 but not 63 /remembetr, rule #1 on freeways - move WITH TRAFFIC and not pay too much attention to speedometer/. As a result, as I drive 70 - 75 mph on freeways most times, exept when have a purpose of good mpg, average mpg looks as more realistically about 40 - 42 and not 47. But if I want 47 - just slow down to 55 - 62 and make sure that end point is not higher vs.  the start point (and try to find a lane when 63 mph creates less problems for others) and no big up / down hills, and I have it.

Edited December 10, 2012 by stranger267

[darrelld]

I can only confirm my previous observations, after few middle - size drives (20 - 100 miles) over the mixture of freeways, highways, streets and mountains:

- 47 mpg is absolutely REAL mpg for the freeway. Conditions are VERY simple

* day time

* no wind, no rain, no water on the road

* end point elevation the same or lower then starting point elevation (very important)

* premium gas (if in CA) - I see  a difference in 2 - 4 mpg.

* climate is turned off for the first 5 minutes if car was cold (else car runs engine on 2000 rpm for the first 5 minutes to prodiuce a heat)

* no big up or down hills (100 feet ups and downs are OK, maybe even 200, through any UPS and Downs decrease mileage)

* !! KEEP ECO cruise on 50 - 60 mpg

* Have 2000 - 3000 total miles.

 

I got a few 47 - 49 mpg this way. Elevation and speed are 2 most important factors - I have Livermore, 400 feet elevation, and Walnut Creek, 100 feet elevation, WC - LVK is about 39 - 42mpg; LVK - WC is about 48 - 49 mpg if I keep speed low enough. Keep in mind that if it is uphill in one direction, average will not be 47 but lower.

 

The same in other trips.  Elevation is #1 factor, speed is #2 (if cruise > 63 mpg results will be 3 - 4 mpg lower because of EV mode limitation). Small highways are the best for mileage (where we can drive 60 mpg for a long time).  Unfortunately 63 mph EV limitatioin is too low for California as most lanes move with 65 - 70 mph speeds and so driving 63 is more difficult (vs. 68 - 70) and can create an obstacle for others /but it is only in middle load time; not a problem at night when not traffic flows are created, or in peak time when traffic is slower/. I think Ford should make this limit at least 68 mph and it could improve average mpg as it is almost always easy to keep 68 but not 63 /remembetr, rule #1 on freeways - move WITH TRAFFIC and not pay too much attention to speedometer/. As a result, as I drive 70 - 75 mph on freeways most times, exept when have a purpose of good mpg, average mpg looks as more realistically about 40 - 42 and not 47. But if I want 47 - just slow down to 55 - 62 and make sure that end point is not higher vs.  the start point (and try to find a lane when 63 mph creates less problems for others) and no big up / down hills, and I have it.

You probably just duplicated the EPA test conditions. Prior to the current EPA test methodolgy their previous test process yielded unrealitically high mpg numbers and was revised to its current state.

 

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml

Edited December 10, 2012 by darrelld

[ptjones]

Fuelly is up to 39.9MPG and climbing.

[darrelld]

Fuelly is up to 39.9MPG and climbing.

 

I posted a question to Consumer Reports asking for the ambient temperatures they used when conducting the various hybrid mpg tests.

 

So far they have not responded. I will post something here (if)when I get an answer.

[jhritz]

 stranger267

* !! KEEP ECO cruise on 50 - 60 mpg

 

Do you mean 50 - 60 MPH here?

[Recumpence]

I have 5,400 miles on my Max so far and I have been averaging 46mpg (lifetime average). I have stated earlier, and will reiterate now, temperature, elevation, and driving habits make a huge difference.

 

Wet pavement makes a big difference as well.

 

Oh, I highly recommend a Scanguage. They are wonderful for monitoring things Ford does not tell us. For one thing, I know that when the engine temp drops below 139 degrees F, the engine is about to start just for warmth. So, I will turn off the climate control when my Scanguage tells me the engine temp is below 140f. Also, it tells me engine RPM. This is important to reduce pumping losses. The lower the RPM, the less pumping losses you will encounter in the engine. It also tells you an exact imediate MPG. That is much better than the sweeping guage on the C-Max dash.

 

Matt

[valkraider]

Oh, I highly recommend a Scanguage.

I use one on my motorcycle. :)

[darrelld]

I posted a question to Consumer Reports asking for the ambient temperatures they used when conducting the various hybrid mpg tests.

 

So far they have not responded. I will post something here (if)when I get an answer.

CR did respond, you can see my post in news.

[mtberman]

The Toyota Prius C is EPA rated at 53 MPG in the city.  Consumer Reports' review says they got 37 MPG city in the Prius C. That's a 16 MPG deficit.  CR's report from last week was critical of the C Max's "real world" mileage. In it they the say "The largest discrepancy we've previously seen was 7 and 6 MPG for the Toyota Prius C...".

 

So, their report on the Prius C says it performed 16 MPG below its EPA city rating, while this new report says only 7 MPG lower.

 

Which is it?

[fairplay]

There has been a lot of discussion about MPG and "real world" driving.  In checking the owners manual, it states in order to maximize your mpg you must drive in an Eco friendly manner - no air conditioning, no heater, no lights, no radio and the windows rolled up.  Everyone should understand the difference between driving for eco -mpg and real world-mpg.  I drive real world, all my gauges are maxed out on the blue, 100% braking and I'm usually on 39 - 40 mpg.  All my driving is stop & go town and short trips, no highway, no freeway, no distances over 6 miles one way.  The mpg is what it is.  My concern right now is the clock won't stay set.  Random time every time I start the car and the dealer just says, "yes Ford is aware of the problem and is trying to find a fix".  Is this the sum-total of the electrical problems or just the tip of the iceberg?  I'm concerned that Ford has a hybrid with a problem in any electrical system, that they've known about for a period of time and they are unable or unwilling to fix it.