It's not your imagination

[Aptos Driver]

Real-world results of road testing by Green Car Reports and Consumer reports indicate that neither the C-MAX nor the new Ford Fusion Hybrid live up to their EPA mileage ratings.

[MSmith1915]

1600 Total miles, 225 trip miles (all city driving) averaging 47.6 mpg.  Maybe their testers need some more practice driving a hybrid.

[Aptos Driver]

You should be able to get the advertised city mileage, driving on surface streets at slower speeds and stop-and-go. We have sometimes gotten as much as 50 mpg in our '12 Camry hybrid in such driving. In city traffic your C-MAX will use battery power more. The testers took their cars out on the highway. The EPA rating indicates that the C-MAX should get 47/47/47 mpg in city/highway/mixed driving. The testers' reports indicate that the C-MAX isn't getting this kind of mileage on the highway.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Aptos Driver

[darrelld]

Thanks for the link, Consumer Reports had some interesting response from these owners.

Prof Steve

December 3, 2012 5:39 PM

 

"The trip computer in our C-Max has been wavering between about 33 mpg and 39 mpg. We've only had our Fusion Hybrid for two weeks, but one driver with a long commute says he saw about 40 mpg on its trip computer."

 

Yes, but what has the temperature been in the Northeast? I drive a Prius in the Midwest. During the summer months, it averages 46-50 mpg (highway and city, combined). As of this morning, I was getting 40 on a really short commute. In the coldest months, it drops to around 35. I'm not sure whether the temperature is specified for manufacturers when testing their vehicles, or, if so, what it is, but if it's above 65 degrees, these findings seem reasonable to me.

 

 

 

Charles

December 4, 2012 2:49 AM

 

I would like to point out that CR's Prius city MPG is only 32, not near the 51 MPGs that the EPA sticker has. That is only 63% of the EPA city value. CR did exceed the EPA highway figure for the Prius and get 88% of the overall EPA MPG.

 

If after break in the Fords get about 41 MPG overall, that would put them at about the same MPG percentage as the Prius.

 

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/12/owners-report-fords-latest-hybrids-dont-live-up-to-47-mpg-claims.html

Edited December 6, 2012 by darrelld

[Aptos Driver]

1600 Total miles, 225 trip miles (all city driving) averaging 47.6 mpg.  Maybe their testers need some more practice driving a hybrid.

But overall, you're averaging 38.9 mpg according to Fuelly. You've got a way to go to hit 47 mpg in all kinds of driving.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Aptos Driver

[CNCGeek]

The GCR mpg has been discussed in another thread and their testing seems suspect (at least as far as any vaild conclusions can be drawn from it).  The CR testing is probably going to be closer to a valid test, in time - right now they are just breaking them in (not that I really buy into that whole thing, but gotta give Ford the benefit of the doubt).  I would bet CR ends up in the very low 40's after several thousand miles of real world driving.  If they are running a valid test they would not user hypermiling techniques and would drive it "normally".

 

If I really cared, it would interesting to look up CR's initial long term report when they tested the Prius to see if they had similar poor fuel economy.

[darrelld]

The GCR mpg has been discussed in another thread and their testing seems suspect (at least as far as any vaild conclusions can be drawn from it).  The CR testing is probably going to be closer to a valid test, in time - right now they are just breaking them in (not that I really buy into that whole thing, but gotta give Ford the benefit of the doubt).  I would bet CR ends up in the very low 40's after several thousand miles of real world driving.  If they are running a valid test they would not user hypermiling techniques and would drive it "normally".

 

If I really cared, it would interesting to look up CR's initial long term report when they tested the Prius to see if they had similar poor fuel economy.

One person did look up CR Prius test.

 

I would like to point out that CR's Prius city MPG is only 32, not near the 51 MPGs that the EPA sticker has. That is only 63% of the EPA city value. CR did exceed the EPA highway figure for the Prius and get 88% of the overall EPA MPG.

 

If after break in the Fords get about 41 MPG overall, that would put them at about the same MPG percentage as the Prius.

[mtberman]

I'm not expecting 47 MPG and don't think anyone should. The old "your mileage may vary" maxim applies to hybrids more than other cars, and it applies to the C Max more than other hybrids.

 

The problem for us is that EPA "highway" test spends a lot of time at speeds under 65 MPH. The C max is the only mass production car that can go 60 MPH with the gasoline engine off. This really skews the EPA highway test to the high side.

 

Ford knows this, and I personally think it's a little disingenuous for their press people to keep hyping the 47 MPG figure. They must know it's going to be hard for owners to duplicate.

 

As for me, I don't care. I've been down this road before (so to speak) with a 2004 Prius and 2008 Escape hybrid. I had each for about 2.5 years and rarely got the EPA ratings in either car, either before or after the 2008 ratings adjustment. In mixed driving, the Prius did about 35 in the winter, 44 in the spring and fall, and around 42 in the summer. The Escape did about 27 in winter and about 32 to 34 otherwise, unless you ran the AC in which case it was lower.

Edited December 6, 2012 by mtberman

[valkraider]

I am not sure how many times we need to post the reasons why the EPA numbers won't happen. People - read the other threads! Seriously!

[darrelld]

I am not sure how many times we need to post the reasons why the EPA numbers won't happen. People - read the other threads! Seriously!

This thread does seem to duplicate whats already been posted in other threads.

[Aptos Driver]

This thread does seem to duplicate whats already been posted in other threads.

Mea culpa

[Maximus]

I think Aptos posting more threads like this shows demonstrates he is pushing a particular agenda, rather than being balanced and inclusive with all the data.

 

For example:

 

"However, Car and Driver noted that the Toyota Camry Hybrid and Hyundai Sonata Hybrid averaged 30 mpg and 27 mpg, respectively, in its tests."

 

What a shock, the vehicle that Aptos claims gets 50mpg, only delivered 30mpg when Car and Driver tested it. 

 

Car and Driver is getting a whopping 33% below the EPA mileage in the Toyota Camry Hybrid.  

 

Consumer Reports Prius gets 32 mpg.  What a shocker. 

 

 

 

The fact of the matter is the actual mileage of vehicles varies widely based on driving style.  This is even more true for hybrids.

 

Posting repetative threads trying to push a particular viewpoint is getting old.  And that's not my imagination.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2012 by Maximus

[Jus-A-CMax]

+ terrain. I had 61MPG going one way and coming back thru the same route was about 42.The 12 mile route looks mostly flat but obviously not. I think I'll just enjoy the drive and have fun getting most of my CMax than to worry about the EPA mileage. 

[ptjones]

 

 

l-world results of road testing by Green Car Reports and ConsumReaer reports indicate that neither the C-MAX nor the new Ford Fusion Hybrid live up to their EPA mileage ratings.

I just got a new record 608.6mi with 12.8gal of premium for47.3MPG 80%Hwy and I used my center grill cover. I believe I will get good enough to reach 50mpg the way things are going. I currently have 2800mi so I still think I'm in the break in mode. My Escape Hybrid took 10-15k before it leveled off. My overall average is 45.4mpg and climbing. The bottom line is your MPG is determined by your driving technique and motivation.

[valkraider]

The bottom line is your MPG is determined by your driving technique and motivation.

 

Not to mention environmental concerns.

 

The C-Max is being introduced in the winter, and fuel economy for all vehicles drops in the winter for a whole variety of reasons.

 

We have also discussed many reasons why people may not get EPA ratings out of any car, I have posted links from other sources such as Edmunds and the EPA themselves, and we have shown that it is not a problem unique to the C-Max.

 

Aside from people's own driving  - which is the largest impact - there are other things which are outside of the driver's control which impact fuel economy.

 

1. EPA tests are done on pure gasoline with no ethanol.  Gasoline purchased at the pump just about anywhere contains 10% ethanol.  10% ethanol reduces fuel economy on *any* vehicle by more than 1%, usually around 2% and occasionally as much as 4% (it all depends on the engine programming and design as to how the impact of the lower energy density of ethanol is handled).  This one single thing alone takes 1mpg away from the C-Max fuel economy compared to EPA numbers.

 

2. EPA tests are done in moderate temperatures with no environmental wind.  In the real world cold impacts fuel economy and so does head or cross wind.

 

3. EPA highway and high speed tests are not done at real world highway speeds.  The C-Max is not as aerodynamic as the Prius or the Insight, so the C-Max will have a greater reduction of fuel economy at higher speeds.  Aerodynamics is why the Prius and the Insight are shaped the way they are, and while functional, it is not the most appealing shape to many people.  Sometimes we sacrifice one area for another.

 

4. EPA tests are not done taking into account the crap that people carry around.  Weight reduces fuel economy.

 

5. EPA tests do not account for hills or mountains.

 

6. EPA tests do not account for elevation.  A naturally aspirated vehicle gets lower economy and has lower power output at higher elevations.  People in New Mexico and Colorado for example need to take this into account when comparing fuel economy (also combine this with #5).

 

7. This space intentionally left blank.

 

8. If you read down this far you may be a nerd like me.

[Aptos Driver]

I think Aptos posting more threads like this shows demonstrates he is pushing a particular agenda, rather than being balanced and inclusive with all the data.

Nope, no "particular agenda" here. I actually like the C-MAX at first blush -- a lot. I hope that it proves as reliable as it is enjoyable to drive. As I noted in the other thread -- and I apologize for starting a redundant new one -- when judging real-world mpg, the question is "compared to what." If your only comparison is what EPA says it got and what you actually get, you're likely to be disappointed. But if you're comparing it to the gas-engine SUV you already drive (as I am as I consider replacing my V6 RAV4 a couple of years hence), then even a paltry average 38 mpg looks great. Normally, I keep a car 10 years, but I'm seriously thinking about replacing my RAV4 at 7 years because I like our '12 Camry hybrid so much. But we don't need another Camry; we need a vehicle that will serve us the way the RAV4 does -- occasionall hauling around items that are too bulky to fit in even a conventional car trunk, but also return significantly better mpg than the RAV's 21-22 average around town. For that, I want a hybrid. At the moment, there are only two such vehicles out there: the C-MAX and the Prius v. I haven't driven the Prius yet, but I'm underwhelmed by its 134 combined mpg. I plan to rent one for at least a day and put it through its paces, driving literally over hill and dale.

 

And with respect to our Camry hybrid -- I actually have gotten better than 50 mpg at times, although I get 42-46 in stop-and-go traffic more often. We are averaging 40.6 mpg overall at the moment. And on trips up to see my daughter, son-in-law and grandkids in the SF Bay area -- via Highway 17 from Santa Cruz, I-280 (at the limit) to Highway 101 through San Francisco to the Bay Bridge and Highway 80 to El Cerrito (the latter two stretches being pretty congested most of the time) I routinely get 40-42 mpg. I drive with a pretty light touch on the accelerator, use cruise control wherever I can and don't drive over 65 mph. No agenda here, I'm just sharing.

[Aptos Driver]

 

8. If you read down this far you may be a nerd like me.

I'm no nerd but I wish I'd been one (it's too late for me now), because nerds rule! Thanks for all that good information. I didn't know that EPA uses pure gasoline in its cars. What's the reason for that?

[Aptos Driver]

I just got a new record 608.6mi with 12.8gal of premium for47.3MPG 80%Hwy and I used my center grill cover. I believe I will get good enough to reach 50mpg the way things are going. I currently have 2800mi so I still think I'm in the break in mode. My Escape Hybrid took 10-15k before it leveled off. My overall average is 45.4mpg and climbing. The bottom line is your MPG is determined by your driving technique and motivation.

Cool. Keep it up!

[Bob999]

I'm no nerd but I wish I'd been one (it's too late for me now), because nerds rule! Thanks for all that good information. I didn't know that EPA uses pure gasoline in its cars. What's the reason for that?

I think the standards and procedures for the EPA test were established many years ago before ethanol was used as a gas additive.  I further believe that because the results of EPA tests have legal signifigance that the procedures can be changed only via a lengthy and difficult regulatory process and as a result very few, if any, changes are made.

 

So I think the simple explanation is that the test was established using gasoline and it has not been changed.

[ptjones]

From my testing so far it looks like Premium has given my best mpg twice over no ethanol gas and 50 cents cheaper.

[Ryan McEachern]

Although the cooler temperature causing issues was already mentioned, I think it is important to remind people that a conventional gasoline powered car uses "waste heat" to warm the cabin space, therefor it is "free" energy that would otherwise be removed in the radiator. That is a large reason why your small gasoline and diesel cars don't see such a dramatic decrease in MPG in the winter, whereas EV's PHEV's and hybrids that use an electric resistance heater are going to suffer quite dramatically.

 

It is ironic that the inefficiency of the internal combustion engine leads to a lot of extra heat, which we have been harnessing to warm our cars interior. The same issue will arise with the ICE if we ever produce an ultra efficient gasoline engine that doesn't produce heat. You will need an electric heater, or some other way of heating the interior of the car.

 

All effeciency technologies will suffer from this same phenomenon, air cars, hydrogen cars, electric cars, flywheel cars....

[darrelld]

Although the cooler temperature causing issues was already mentioned, I think it is important to remind people that a conventional gasoline powered car uses "waste heat" to warm the cabin space, therefor it is "free" energy that would otherwise be removed in the radiator. That is a large reason why your small gasoline and diesel cars don't see such a dramatic decrease in MPG in the winter, whereas EV's PHEV's and hybrids that use an electric resistance heater are going to suffer quite dramatically.

 

It is ironic that the inefficiency of the internal combustion engine leads to a lot of extra heat, which we have been harnessing to warm our cars interior. The same issue will arise with the ICE if we ever produce an ultra efficient gasoline engine that doesn't produce heat. You will need an electric heater, or some other way of heating the interior of the car.

 

All effeciency technologies will suffer from this same phenomenon, air cars, hydrogen cars, electric cars, flywheel cars....

 

My TDI also has a small electric heater in the dash to supplement until the diesel can produce enough waste heat for the cabin.

[Ryan McEachern]

My TDI also has a small electric heater in the dash to supplement until the diesel can produce enough waste heat for the cabin.

 

I did not realize that. It makes sense - those little diesels are amazingly efficient.

[darrelld]

I did not realize that. It makes sense - those little diesels are amazingly efficient.

 

They are, I don't usually see much variation in summer, winter, or even driving style in mpg. Too bad there is a 20% price difference between D2 and RUG and VW products are so problem prone. My VW was still more reliable than my previous Toyota\Lexus.

Edited December 6, 2012 by darrelld

[Aptos Driver]

With the assurance that I have no "agenda" other than informing myself about the C-MAX, and at the risk of waving a red flag in front of some forum members, I'm sharing a report (via the LA Times) from Consumer Reports on C-MAX and Ford Fusion hybrid gas mileage. As is their custom, CR testers bought their cars from dealerships. Their tests on the C-MAX and FFH are still ongoing, but they're reporting that after driving these cars 2,000 miles each in various conditions, and "adjusting for ambient temperature" they were unable to achieve anything close to EPA's mileage ratings for either car. CR reports that the C-MAX returned 35 mpg in city driving, 38 on the highway and 37 mpg overall.CR also said that compared to other vehicles they've tested against EPA ratings, this was an unusually large discrepancy. The LA Times also tested the car and couldn't do better than 37.5 mpg overall. So if gas mileage were my only consideration when shopping for a hybrid to replace my "gas guzzling" '07 RAV4 V6, the Prius v would win hands down. But it's not. I'm also looking for power and a smooth, quiet ride. In other words, once its reliability has been proven in real-world driving, I could be quite happy with a C-MAX, even if its real-world fuel economy doesn't measure up to the EPA rating. (Was that rating supposed to be "close enough for government work"?)