Zoomit Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 I'm looking to buy a used 2013 C-Max SEL with 45,000 miles. I am concerned about the transmission failures on cars built before Jun 2014. I plan to drive it at least another 100,000 miles so any remaining or additional warranty would not cover my expected ownership period. I do not want to buy a ticking time bomb and dump many thousands of dollars into a replacement transmission at a later date. Is there a way to check the car to see if the transmission has been replaced? Is there maybe a different part number or some other indication? I haven't read about any other potential "gotchas" but would certainly be interested in hearing advice from anyone on purchasing an early C-Max. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obob Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) Whoa. I kind of wanted to know where the 2014 cut off date was. Where did you to get the June 2014 date ? The problem was exposed in mid 2013 as I recall, but it seems Ford continued to use the bad transmissions into 2014. You ask very very good questions in my opinion, but I do not have a good answer, only suggestions that you probably already know, ask a dealer, message the Ford rep on this site, with the VIN. ( http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/3310-official-ford-service-rep/ ) The trans is pretty much the only real bad gotcha. The other would be "Microsoft" sound system on the 2013-2015s but that does not cost money and relative to the trans is minuscule to me but may not other people. By the way, as I recall most the the trans problems come after the 45000 mark so I would put the probability of you have the trans changed as very low. There is a message thread that goes into actually mileages of confirmed trans problems. [ Thanks for reminding me about my ticking time bomb. :-) ] Edited June 9, 2017 by obob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoomit Posted June 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) I got the build date for the updated transmission from this thread: http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/5288-mileage-and-build-date-for-ecvt-that-have-failed/ Jun 17, 2014 Edited June 9, 2017 by Zoomit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) I believe the transmission issue affects C-Max models built on or before 8/15/2015. So, MYs 2013-2015 are included. See the attachment. Thumping.pdf Edited June 9, 2017 by Plus 3 Golfer obob, Zoomit and ptjones 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 I guess the only way to make sure is to buy one that the trans has been replaced, Mine failed at 98k mi., the main common denominator was cars that were driven on the FWY a lot. :headscratch: Paul obob 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted June 9, 2017 Report Share Posted June 9, 2017 I guess the only way to make sure is to buy one that the trans has been replaced, Mine failed at 98k mi., the main common denominator was cars that were driven on the FWY a lot. :headscratch: Paul IMO, the only certainty of having a "good" transmission (one without the potential issue) in MYs 2013 - 2015 is if a failed transmission was replaced with a transmission also built after 8/15/2015. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted June 10, 2017 Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) It appears that the "fix" is either the installation of transfer shaft kit or the whole transmission depending on whether there is damage to the damper housing due to transfer shaft contact or wear. So, the cost of repair could be significant (see price difference between new transmission vs the kit below). It likely would be possible to find a used transmission at a salvage yard from a 2016 and later vehicle rather than paying for a new transmission if not covered by warranty. It is not clear whether the transfer shaft would be deemed a Hybrid component and covered under the Hybrid component warranty. If the transmission needs replaced then the new transmission should be covered under the Hybrid components warranty. From the Thumping.pdf: "Eligible Under Provisions Of New Vehicle Limited Warranty Coverage. Warranty/ESP coverage limits/policies/prior approvals are not altered by a TSB. Warranty/ESP coverage limits are determined by the identified causal part and verified using the OASIS part coverage tool." But it is not clear what is meant by the highlighted red text above with respect to what the coverage is if the cause is the transfer shaft and the transmission needs replaced due to damage due to transfer shaft contact. I guess someone with access to OASIS should be able to determine the warranty coverage. Edited June 10, 2017 by Plus 3 Golfer obob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoomit Posted June 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 +3 Golfer, Thank you! That's very helpful. I concur that it looks like the only way to avoid this risk is to get a MY16 or an older one in which the transmission was replaced after 8/15/15. Is there any real way to know how pervasive the transmission issue is? I don't know how the car I'm looking at was driven (it's at a Ford dealer) so I don't know if it was a lot of highway miles. I think my only chance of knowing is by asking the dealer if they were the ones that (potentially) swapped it and have it in their service records. Otherwise, I don't know why I would touch this car with a potentially huge service bill looming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted June 10, 2017 Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) I think you are over emphasizing the trans issue for one thing very few trans made it pass 100k miles so if it did fail it would be covered under the Hybrid warranty. That potentially would make the CMAX worth more. :) Here is the Link to trans fail build date and failure mileage and there was only one greater than 100k mi. and it had 159k mi. http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/5288-mileage-and-build-date-for-ecvt-that-have-failed/page-1 Paul Edited June 10, 2017 by ptjones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoomit Posted June 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 I think you are over emphasizing the trans issue for one thing very few trans made it pass 100k miles so if it did fail it would be covered under the Hybrid warranty. That potentially would make the CMAX worth more. :) Here is the Link to trans fail build date and failure mileage and there was only one greater than 100k mi. and it had 159k mi. http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/5288-mileage-and-build-date-for-ecvt-that-have-failed/page-1 Paul The appropriate way to consider the probability of realizing a transmission failure would be to divide the number of affected vehicles by the total number of susceptible vehicles in a mileage category (above 100k mi). Our challenge is that the number of cars with greater than 100k miles is only a very small portion of the population. Therefore, from that dataset, we cannot make any justifiable assertions that the transmission issue will decline in probability above 100k miles. The typical MY13 C-MAX won't reach 100k miles until 2019 or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted June 10, 2017 Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) The appropriate way to consider the probability of realizing a transmission failure would be to divide the number of affected vehicles by the total number of susceptible vehicles in a mileage category (above 100k mi). Our challenge is that the number of cars with greater than 100k miles is only a very small portion of the population. Therefore, from that dataset, we cannot make any justifiable assertions that the transmission issue will decline in probability above 100k miles. The typical MY13 C-MAX won't reach 100k miles until 2019 or so. Which would mean that your CMAX would still be covered under the Hybrid Warranty 8yrs/ 100k miles. IMO I don't see that you have a problem under your scenario, you would still be covered. :) BTW I would think I would get a New/Used CMAX at 159k mi. if I had problem figuring I got my moneys worth out of it. At 157k mi. on my CMAX I'm doing great, no payments, lower Insurance and Great MPG's, doesn't get much better than that. :) Paul Edited June 10, 2017 by ptjones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoomit Posted June 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 I'm not sure I follow. I'm not worried about when the mileage is less than 100k mi, due to the warranty. I'm looking to buy used at 45k and put another 100k on it in 5 years. I don't want to have to sell it before it goes out of warranty at 100k. I suppose I could take the chance that the transmission fails and gets replaced before 100k or if it doesn't fail before 100k, reassess at that time (based on more community data). Speaking of community data, I see that the failure tracking thread hasn't been updated in about a year. The fusion thread hasn't been updated in 6 months. I'm obviously new to the forum, is there still a lot of talk about this failure? Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted June 10, 2017 Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 It might be that the ones that are going to fail have failed and not to many of those are left now. :headscratch: The numbers have definitely gone down, only seen a few in the the last few months. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted June 10, 2017 Report Share Posted June 10, 2017 I believe even if my transmission would fail after 100 k miles (I'm at 88 k miles now), I'll be able to get a used transmission installed for under $3000. In addition, there is virtually no "chatter" on transmissions failing. So, I doubt the failure rate is very high. Also, since we know what to "listen for" in a failing transmission, we should be able to catch the transfer shaft failure before the failure takes out the entire transmission. In this case I would expect the repair cost to be less than $2000. ptjones and Zoomit 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshg678 Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 Keep in mind that if you get a used transmission you will have to reprogram the TCM with either Ford IDS or something capable. The gear ratio is different from what I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 We did a check awhile ago and all CMAX Hybrid trans ratios are the same, but not all software/firmware are necessarily the same. :headscratch: Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 Keep in mind that if you get a used transmission you will have to reprogram the TCM with either Ford IDS or something capable.The gear ratio is different from what I know.One should not have to reprogram the TCM with a different strategy since the TCM is not part of the transmission and would not be replaced. The used or new transmission would have to have the same gear ratio as the failed transmission: 2.57 for the Hybrid or 2.91 for the Energi. AFAIK, Ford did not change the final drive ratio from MY2013 to present. Please provide the source as to the different gear ratios in various model years. Most transmission shops should have the Ford IDS and if not, it would likely be $100 or so for a Ford dealer to check that the TCM strategy is correct for the transmission and install the appropriate strategy. NOTICE: If the transmission strategy information is not correct, transmission driveability concerns can occur.- Ford Manual But I believe the only material difference in strategy would relate to the final drive ratio. Ford may have enhanced the strategy is later MYs perhaps to improve efficiency over previous strategies. So, it would likely be beneficial to update the strategy based on the transmission ID and strategy ID numbers on the newer MY transmissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obob Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) I believe the transmission issue affects C-Max models built on or before 8/15/2015. So, MYs 2013-2015 are included. See the attachment. Thumping.pdf Zoomit, I am not sure how much the 2013 is going for that you are interested, and it seems like you might not need this info but I'll just offer it. In my opinion, C-Max's have pretty bad resell value which could work really well for you, and their new value is really discounted. ( my 2013 SE in 2013 was discounted to 24K, before trade in and tax, Now you get a SEL for less. ) Here are cars on cars.com 2015 and above - you can get the build date from the dealer for the 2015s. To me they are pretty reasonably priced. Hybrids and Energi's SELs, many are off lease NOTE: These links require looking at an advertising and clicking through them (continue to cars.com) LINK: https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?mdId=50243&mdId=49085&mkId=20015&page=1&perPage=50&rd=99999&searchSource=GN_REFINEMENT&sf1Dir=ASC&sf1Nm=price&stkTypId=28881&trId=24993&trId=30283&yrId=30031936&yrId=58487&yrId=56007&zc=60202 I would be very tempted to get an Energi SEL, 2015, 40K miles, $13000 https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/702439279/overview/ 2015 Hybrid SEL 39K miles, $13,900 https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/698954704/overview/ I would check to make sure they were non-smoking cars for that bothers me. New cars are also really discounted with new 2016 SELs starting under 20K on cars.com (and it is possible the prices will go down even lower when the C-Max's stop production) https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?mdId=49085&mkId=20015&page=1&perPage=50&rd=99999&searchSource=SORT&sf1Dir=ASC&sf1Nm=price&stkTypId=28880&trId=24993&zc=60202 My present plan is to hold onto my C-Max until I can get a reasonably priced self-driving car after some maturing of the technology. That really appeals to me. Presently, it is nice having the hybrid verses the Energi to load things like a dishwasher into it, though perhaps the energi could fit the dishwasher. Edited June 13, 2017 by obob plus 3 golfer and ptjones 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshg678 Posted June 17, 2017 Report Share Posted June 17, 2017 One should not have to reprogram the TCM with a different strategy since the TCM is not part of the transmission and would not be replaced. The used or new transmission would have to have the same gear ratio as the failed transmission: 2.57 for the Hybrid or 2.91 for the Energi. AFAIK, Ford did not change the final drive ratio from MY2013 to present. Please provide the source as to the different gear ratios in various model years. Most transmission shops should have the Ford IDS and if not, it would likely be $100 or so for a Ford dealer to check that the TCM strategy is correct for the transmission and install the appropriate strategy. NOTICE: If the transmission strategy information is not correct, transmission driveability concerns can occur.- Ford Manual But I believe the only material difference in strategy would relate to the final drive ratio. Ford may have enhanced the strategy is later MYs perhaps to improve efficiency over previous strategies. So, it would likely be beneficial to update the strategy based on the transmission ID and strategy ID numbers on the newer MY transmissions.I'm only remembering when ford changed the design in 2014 they said it was a more efficient gear ratio. Don't know if that was accurate or if it was the cover story for the failure part. As far as reprogramming, all I have is a private message with Ford Tech that's says any time you replace a ford hybrid transmission you have to program it in the computer otherwise it won't work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted June 18, 2017 Report Share Posted June 18, 2017 (edited) Nope; no change in gear ratio, beyond the Hybrid/Energi difference that Plus 3 has documented repeatedly. My 2013 now has a different warm-up behavior, that I think started with the 2014 PCM update. You see it in Paul's video. When the engine starts cold, it sends no power to the wheels - EV only - for about 20 seconds. Then engine speed rises, and the Split Power display in "Engage" or "My View" screens shows a shift from blue EV to white ICE power delivery. And given all the SW updates, it makes sense that the transmission SW must be the same version as the car. That's different from system level SW updates. HAve fun,Frank Edited June 18, 2017 by fbov ptjones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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