Niro vs. Ioniq vs. C-max - Consumer Reports

[raadsel]

Agreed Frank, Snowstorm ………. & sad.

 

Love the maniacal driving standard they (CR) apply. Let’s all promulgate the practice of wasteful conformity. Ya sure ya betcha.

 

We all know the effects of weather and driving habits. Sorry all, but CR’s 37 (35/38) mpgs was bogus and continues to be bogus for most – including the EPA, Fuelly and here. Bogus & destructive. CU/CR is not god, not the ‘end all & be all’ of automotive assessment, nor remotely infallible. Sadly they are taken too seriously and that's destructive.

 

I agree with Paul that many/most folks who buy hybrids do expect a different driving experience / have a slightly different take on driving – and yes, sadly, some don’t have a clue.

 

My wife and I have taken no lessons and have not changed our diving habits but slightly, if at all; and launched off the new car lot at 42+ mpgs from our start (January 2013), and can easily achieve 42 + on average driving 'normally' - just us I guess.

 

Pass the poupon,

Nick

 

Per Consumer Reports, "Using a precise fuel-flow measuring device spliced into the fuel line, we run two separate circuits. One is on a public highway at a steady 65 mph. That course is run in both directions to counteract any terrain and wind effects. A second is a simulated urban/suburban-driving test done at our track. It consists of predetermined acceleration, and deceleration rates, as well as idle time. Consumer Reports' overall fuel-economy numbers are derived from those fuel consumption tests."

 

It would be interesting to know exactly what acceleration and deceleration rates they use, as well if they account at all for the battery charge while they run their tests.My guess, though, is that they accelerate and decelerate more in the way they believe the average American would. But their highway fuel economy test seems pretty accurate, at least for a non-modified C-Max using Cruise Control with the AC running on a 20 or so mile run (each direction); it is also what the EPA rates the C-Max at on the highway.

 

I also believe that they have only used a 2013 C-Max for testing, and it could be their tests were done before some of the updates were made. I suspect if they used one of the new C-Max's that have "Eco Mode," that the fuel economy would look better as it would help retard their acceleration.

[ptjones]

The interesting thing, the Prius(CMAX?) has essentially the same drivetrain as the Prius; with the largest difference (beyond engine size) being the way the are programmed -- though actually the C-Max was originally programmed closer to the Prius (before they changed the top speed for EV only). The program wasn't changed other than to increase Max EV speed and shutter operation. In essence, the Prius should be driven like the C-Max to get the best mileage, other than not going into EV at highway speeds. It is practically impossible to drive Prius or NIRO like a CMAX, I tried to without much success, they just don't have the EV power of the CMAX. Remember CMAX aggressively charges the HVB with ICE on, Prius and NIRO don't.   The Niro/Ioniq with a 6 speed dual clutch transmission changes they way the operate, which changes the way they need to be driven. Additionally, regen appears to have been downplayed on the Niro/Ioniq, so if you aren't hitting the brake they are largely just coasting -- which if used right can really help fuel economy; though it does mean if you want to slow down and get regen, you need to press the brake. ​I like the CMAX aggressive regen to slow the car and if I need to I can stick it in Neutral to coast. 

 

One interesting feature they built into the Ioniq EV, and I'd love to have something similar in a hybrid I owned, is to have paddle shifters that control the amount of regen. If I recall correctly (from reviews), the lowest level is similar to the way the Ioniq Hybrid is programmed, where you are largely coasting; the middle position would be closer to the way the C-Max is programmed, where you get a fair amount of regen but, if you want to stop, you need to step on the brake; and the highest level of regen is much like the Tesla, where the regen is powerful enough (or almost) to stop the car without pressing on the brake. It would be nice to be able to switch the regen, in the city, to the highest level but, for road trips, be able to basically coast -- particularly for larger hills.​ The downhill assist can be used this way or stick it in Low gear. 

 

 

Per Consumer Reports, "Using a precise fuel-flow measuring device spliced into the fuel line, we run two separate circuits. One is on a public highway at a steady 65 mph. That course is run in both directions to counteract any terrain and wind effects. A second is a simulated urban/suburban-driving test done at our track. It consists of predetermined acceleration, and deceleration rates, as well as idle time. Consumer Reports' overall fuel-economy numbers are derived from those fuel consumption tests."

 

It would be interesting to know exactly what acceleration and deceleration rates they use, as well if they account at all for the battery charge while they run their tests.My guess, though, is that they accelerate and decelerate more in the way they believe the average American would. But their highway fuel economy test seems pretty accurate, at least for a non-modified C-Max using Cruise Control with the AC running on a 20 or so mile run (each direction); it is also what the EPA rates the C-Max at on the highway.

 

I also believe that they have only used a 2013 C-Max for testing, and it could be their tests were done before some of the updates were made. I suspect if they used one of the new C-Max's that have "Eco Mode," that the fuel economy would look better as it would help retard their acceleration. On the NRG Forum rbrot has a new 2017 CMAX Energi and he is getting 2-3 mpg better on the same long distance trip.

Paul

[raadsel]

Paul

 

I would be surprised if the Niro doesn't charge similarly to the C-Max with the ICE running, though I do seem to recall it having a smaller battery. Of course, as you point out, it also has a smaller electric motor. Additionally, the Hyundai's don't need as large an electric motor because of the transmission, since the transmission is between the wheels and the electric motor on the Niro, and not on the Prius or C-Max (or at least not the same way).

 

The other issue, and I'm not sure how it works, is that the software in the Hyundai/Kia hybrids "learn" how you drive, to try and make them more efficient. Most of the time it works pretty well, though there have been a few cases, that I've heard about, where the car was getting "poor" fuel economy, at which point "resetting" the software fixed the issue -- basically the software "learned" wrong or the person changed their driving style.

 

As for the C-Max, my understanding is the software has changed, multiple times. One was just to change the Max EV speed, but there was a different recall (and maybe more than one) that changed the way the software worked -- with various reports of better or worse fuel economy after the software was reprogrammed. It does seem to me that they have made various changes, in each model year, to improve the efficiency -- an obvious one is the rear window, where they have added and even modified the plastic panels on the window to improve the air flow. I'd be interested to see the EPA (which is technically Ford), CR, and others retest the C-Max.

 

I will agree, the Ioniq/Niro are aimed at Prius drivers, not directly at the C-Max. I'm not sure Kia really hit the mark with the Niro, though it does sound like Hyundai has done a great job -- at least as a Prius competitor -- with the Ioniq. One of the oddities with the Niro, reviews I've seen indicate the lower trims, with smaller tires, actually drive better than the top of the line with larger tires -- they seem to have forgotten to "retune" the car with the larger tires. It will be interesting to see what kind of reliability they have. 

[ptjones]

I would be surprised if the Niro doesn't charge similarly to the C-Max with the ICE running, though I do seem to recall it having a smaller battery. My experience is NIRO charges just like Prius, you can't force charge it like you can the CMAX. When I'm driving I'm in ICE or EV Mode, not both. In NIRO and Prius, EV is assisting the ICE a good % of the time. In the CMAX you have to have greater than 53% State Of Charge before EV will kick in.  I'm rarely that high. BTW the NIRO HVB is a little bigger than CMAX HVB, but they don't to use it. Of course, as you point out, it also has a smaller electric motor. Additionally, the Hyundai's don't need as large an electric motor because of the transmission, since the transmission is between the wheels and the electric motor on the Niro, and not on the Prius or C-Max (or at least not the same way). NIRO's electic motor just isn't strong enough to accelerate like the CMAX. IMO

 

The other issue, and I'm not sure how it works, is that the software in the Hyundai/Kia hybrids "learn" how you drive, to try and make them more efficient. Most of the time it works pretty well, though there have been a few cases, that I've heard about, where the car was getting "poor" fuel economy, at which point "resetting" the software fixed the issue -- basically the software "learned" wrong or the person changed their driving style.

 

As for the C-Max, my understanding is the software has changed, multiple times. I'm unaware of any other ECM updates, I think they may have done something different for 2016's and newer. One was just to change the Max EV speed, but there was a different recall (and maybe more than one) that changed the way the software worked -- with various reports of better or worse fuel economy after the software was reprogrammed. It does seem to me that they have made various changes, in each model year, to improve the efficiency -- an obvious one is the rear window, where they have added and even modified the plastic panels on the window to improve the air flow. I'd be interested to see the EPA (which is technically Ford), CR, and others retest the C-Max.

 

I will agree, the Ioniq/Niro are aimed at Prius drivers, not directly at the C-Max. I'm not sure Kia really hit the mark with the Niro, though it does sound like Hyundai has done a great job -- at least as a Prius competitor -- with the Ioniq. One of the oddities with the Niro, reviews I've seen indicate the lower trims, with smaller tires, actually drive better than the top of the line with larger tires -- they seem to have forgotten to "retune" the car with the larger tires. It will be interesting to see what kind of reliability they have. My experience was I didn't notice that much of a difference other than the smaller tires slides a lot in sharp cornering, scary! :sad: 

Paul

[raadsel]

Last night, for some odd reason, I started thinking of the automatic transmission in the Sonata/Optima hybrids; it is a largely normal automatic transmission but Hyundai realized they could remove the torque converter. Instead, the electric motor acts as a replacement for the torque converter. And it was thinking of adding torque, that made me realize I think I know the "acceleration issue" with the Niro/Ioniq.

 

Of course, one issue with DCTs is that they are essentially an automatically shifted manual transmission. While you limit some of the wear by shifting them automatically, eventually the clutch plate is going to wear down. Hyundai realized they could largely prevent wear of the clutch plate in the hybrids, that with an electric motor they could keep the transmission in gear -- not apply the clutch -- when the car is stopped. 

 

The issue, if I understand correctly, is that Hyundai is using a dry DCT -- and this limits the amount of torque that can be applied, too much torque and the clutch will start slipping. Now, in Eco mode Hyundai retards the throttle response, so they are already limited torque. I'm fairly sure that Hyundai/Kia also limits the acceleration, even in Sport mode, to protect the transmission and to keep the clutch from slipping -- that the transmission cannot handle (or at least that Hyundai/Kia don't allow it to handle) the full amount of torque the electric motor can provide. Instead, they limit acceleration from a dead stop, and provide a nice steady acceleration curve that the DCT can easily handle.

[ptjones]

I guess this is fine if you want to be a Prius clone. :shrug:  Being use to the CMAX, I find the Prius/NIRO annoying to drive. :sad:  The CMAX shows Hybrids don't have to act that way. :)

[plus 3 golfer]

Last night, for some odd reason, I started thinking of the automatic transmission in the Sonata/Optima hybrids; it is a largely normal automatic transmission but Hyundai realized they could remove the torque converter. Instead, the electric motor acts as a replacement for the torque converter. And it was thinking of adding torque, that made me realize I think I know the "acceleration issue" with the Niro/Ioniq.

 

Of course, one issue with DCTs is that they are essentially an automatically shifted manual transmission. While you limit some of the wear by shifting them automatically, eventually the clutch plate is going to wear down. Hyundai realized they could largely prevent wear of the clutch plate in the hybrids, that with an electric motor they could keep the transmission in gear -- not apply the clutch -- when the car is stopped. 

 

The issue, if I understand correctly, is that Hyundai is using a dry DCT -- and this limits the amount of torque that can be applied, too much torque and the clutch will start slipping. Now, in Eco mode Hyundai retards the throttle response, so they are already limited torque. I'm fairly sure that Hyundai/Kia also limits the acceleration, even in Sport mode, to protect the transmission and to keep the clutch from slipping -- that the transmission cannot handle (or at least that Hyundai/Kia don't allow it to handle) the full amount of torque the electric motor can provide. Instead, they limit acceleration from a dead stop, and provide a nice steady acceleration curve that the DCT can easily handle.

 

I don't know how the Niro DCT and motor are connected but I suspect that the electric motor is connected to one of the two DCT gear shafts.  So, the dual clutch only connects ICE to the transmission.  I doubt clutch wear is an issue due to torque of the electric motor.  The algorithms must make sure that ICE and the motor are spinning at the correct speeds when a clutch is engaged if using the motor and ICE at the same time.  I'm not aware of any DTC that can't / wouldn't be designed to handle the torque of ICE. Why would the Niro be any different.  If both ICE and the motor are supplying full torque on acceleration, the clutch would only have to handle ICE torque even though the torque to the wheels is ICE + motor.  When charging the max. torque the clutch would see is the torque of ICE.

 

Now it the electric motor is on the input side to the transmission, then one might be concerned about the torque of ICE + Motor. 

 

Here's a video of the Honda DCT and how it works.  I would think the Niro would be similar.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Plus 3 Golfer

[raadsel]

I don't know how the Niro DCT and motor are connected but I suspect that the electric motor is connected to one of the two DCT gear shafts.  So, the dual clutch only connects ICE to the transmission.  I doubt clutch wear is an issue due to torque of the electric motor.  The algorithms must make sure that ICE and the motor are spinning at the correct speeds when a clutch is engaged if using the motor and ICE at the same time.  I'm not aware of any DTC that can't / wouldn't be designed to handle the torque of ICE. Why would the Niro be any different.  If both ICE and the motor are supplying full torque on acceleration, the clutch would only have to handle ICE torque even though the torque to the wheels is ICE + motor.  When charging the max. torque the clutch would see is the torque of ICE.

 

Now it the electric motor is on the input side to the transmission, then one might be concerned about the torque of ICE + Motor. 

 

Here's a video of the Honda DCT and how it works.  I would think the Niro would be similar.

 

No, the electric motor is tied to the driveshaft, and is always "connected;" it is either propelling the car, with the ICE on or off, or it is generating electricity with the ICE propelling the car. As for the two clutches, one clutch is the odd gears (1,3,5) and the other the even gears (2,4,6); switching between the clutches as you go up in gears allows for faster shifting -- the gear is already selected, just needs the clutch closed. As for the DCT, you are thinking of a wet clutch design, which is what sports cars use. The dry DCT is typically limited to only about 184 lb. ft of torque but give better fuel economy.

[plus 3 golfer]

No, the electric motor is tied to the driveshaft, and is always "connected;" it is either propelling the car, with the ICE on or off, or it is generating electricity with the ICE propelling the car. As for the two clutches, one clutch is the odd gears (1,3,5) and the other the even gears (2,4,6); switching between the clutches as you go up in gears allows for faster shifting -- the gear is already selected, just needs the clutch closed. As for the DCT, you are thinking of a wet clutch design, which is what sports cars use. The dry DCT is typically limited to only about 184 lb. ft of torque but give better fuel economy.

It doen't matter whether the traction motor is connected to the drive shaft or like shown in the Honda video (it's always connected to the wheels in the video also).  Niro ICE torque is 109 lb ft, motor torque is 125 lb ft, and total torque is 195 lb ft.  A quick search shows dry DCTs greater than 195 lb ft.   It is also hard to believe that KIA is limiting the ICE torque because they put in a "sub-standard" DCT.  Regardless if they did, the total is speced at 195 ft lb.  I completely understand how a DCT works as I owned one.

 

You are missing the point though.  What I'm questioning is the reasoning behind your statement: "I'm fairly sure that Hyundai/Kia also limits the acceleration, even in Sport mode, to protect the transmission and to keep the clutch from slipping -- that the transmission cannot handle (or at least that Hyundai/Kia don't allow it to handle) the full amount of torque the electric motor can provide"    The electric motor torque does not affect the clutches.  If you meant ICE instead of electric motor affecting the clutches, then KIA is stupid for putting in a sub-standard DCT.  

Edited August 11, 2017 by Plus 3 Golfer

[nsteblay]

I don't get the CR MPG numbers at all.  Here's my numbers for the month so far.

 

634 MILES

49.1 MPG

 

All I do is commute to work every morning, just like everyone else on the freeways in the Twin Cities - 33 miles one way.  I don't try to save gas, I just try to get to work on time without killing myself.  I don't think I could get 35-37 MPG if I tried!  In the winter when it is below 0F, yes, I get in the 30's.  During the spring, summer and fall, never.  

 

Numbers from my commute this morning.

 

33.6 MILES

57.4 MPG

$1.36 FUEL

56.4 MINUTES

 

Yes, I am driving on a freeway ... kind of sad I know.  The slower my average speed for a commute the better my MPG.  CR must be driving 90 MPH in their city driving.

Edited August 11, 2017 by nsteblay

[SnowStorm]

Another thing I don't get is why we keep comparing the C-Max to "the Prius" (as if there's only one model) or the Ioniq (a hatchback).  For some strange reason the EPA classifies the C-Max as a "family sedan" but I bought it for the body style that is essentially an SUV or "station wagon" type body, not a sedan or hatchback.  With that limitation for hybrids, we have only the C-Max, Prius V and now the Niro.  Forget "the Prius", the Ioniq, the Accord Hybrid, Maibu Hybrid, Fusion Hybrid, etc.  Then forget all those other undocumented and unconfirmed "tests" and look at the EPA ratings:

1. C-Max   40 mpg combined
2. Prius V  41 mpg combined
3. Niro      50/49/43 mpg combined (depending on model)

Averages on Fuelly are virtually identical to those above (Niro at about 46).  So why keep looking at all those crazy "tests"?  It seems there's some unfounded mistrust in the EPA numbers and an even more unfounded belief that some some other "tests" will be better.  Yes, there have been a few errors (including Ford!), but the EPA tests are tightly defined and. by far, the best thing going for mileage comparison between models.

 

Of course almost anyone can beat EPA if they want to.  At 132k+ miles I'm at 48.7 MPG lifetime average on my C-Max!  Its the best car I've ever had!

[raadsel]

It doen't matter whether the traction motor is connected to the drive shaft or like shown in the Honda video (it's always connected to the wheels in the video also).  Niro ICE torque is 109 lb ft, motor torque is 125 lb ft, and total torque is 195 lb ft.  A quick search shows dry DCTs greater than 195 lb ft.   It is also hard to believe that KIA is limiting the ICE torque because they put in a "sub-standard" DCT.  Regardless if they did, the total is speced at 195 ft lb.  I completely understand how a DCT works as I owned one.

 

You are missing the point though.  What I'm questioning is the reasoning behind your statement: "I'm fairly sure that Hyundai/Kia also limits the acceleration, even in Sport mode, to protect the transmission and to keep the clutch from slipping -- that the transmission cannot handle (or at least that Hyundai/Kia don't allow it to handle) the full amount of torque the electric motor can provide"    The electric motor torque does not affect the clutches.  If you meant ICE instead of electric motor affecting the clutches, then KIA is stupid for putting in a sub-standard DCT.  

 

I could easily be wrong for the lack of response in sport mode on the Niro, it was just and odd thought and Kia may have had a different reason. However, the clutch does come into play -- the clutch and gears sit between the electric motor and the wheels. Again,  Kia/Hyundai can get by with a smaller electric motor because it does not directly drive the wheels but goes through the transmission. On the Sonata Hybrid, with a regular transmission, it is not as efficient as a CVT but with the DCT it is close. It is an interesting system -- and helps appeal to those that don't like CVTs.

[plus 3 golfer]

I could easily be wrong for the lack of response in sport mode on the Niro, it was just and odd thought and Kia may have had a different reason. However, the clutch does come into play -- the clutch and gears sit between the electric motor and the wheels. Again,  Kia/Hyundai can get by with a smaller electric motor because it does not directly drive the wheels but goes through the transmission. On the Sonata Hybrid, with a regular transmission, it is not as efficient as a CVT but with the DCT it is close. It is an interesting system -- and helps appeal to those that don't like CVTs.

Now you are describing something different.  There are hybrids built with two clutches but are not really a DCT.  Here's a link to Nissan's  block diagram of a hybrid using two clutches and a snip attached below.  This could be the way the Niro is built where the torque converter of a conventional transmission is replaced by the electric motor and two clutches.  Then, your statement makes sense.  But then the Niro does not have a true dual clutch transmission where odd gears are on one shaft and even gears on other shaft.  So, we really need to see a diagram of the Niro's transmission.

[raadsel]

Now you are describing something different.  There are hybrids built with two clutches but are not really a DCT.  Here's a link to Nissan's  block diagram of a hybrid using two clutches and a snip attached below.  This could be the way the Niro is built where the torque converter of a conventional transmission is replaced by the electric motor and two clutches.  Then, your statement makes sense.  But then the Niro does not have a true dual clutch transmission where odd gears are on one shaft and even gears on other shaft.  So, we really need to see a diagram of the Niro's transmission.

Nissan.JPG

 

I think you are trying to over think this. Your diagram for Nissan is the basics of how the Sonata/Optima hybrids operate, though the below YouTube video shows the system and how it works. The primary difference is that the Hyundai has a second electric motor, a starter/generator, that starts the ICE and that also recharges the Hybrid Battery at times the engine is running but not connected to the traction motor, such as when the engine is warming when first started but the car is not moving.

 

For the Ioniq/Niro, replace the automatic transmission with a DCT. Yes, it is three separate clutches, one between the ICE and Electric Motor and then the DCT -- I'm sorry I wasn't more clear, I did not think you needed it spelled out.

 

[djc]

On the Sonata hybrid CR said:

 

"...the previous-generation Sonata Hybrid, which we tested in 2011, was pretty much a flop, with fuel economy barely better than the conventional version and annoyingly rough transitions between electric and gasoline propulsion.

Our [2016] hybrid Sonata takes off smartly and quietly, aided by the electric motor’s instant torque delivery. The gas engine wakes up in due course, and when it does, the transition is unobtrusive except for some added thrum if you keep your foot down on the pedal.
So far we’ve been observing 40 mpg overall— impressive for a midsized sedan.
Ride comfort is a strong suit, as well. The Sonata Hybrid rides very comfortably, with the pliant suspension smoothing out even the worst pavement. This ride is every bit as comfortable as a Toyota Camry Hybrid and steadier than the Honda Accord Hybrid.
On the handling front, the Sonata corners soundly but it’s not particularly agile or sporty. Those yearning for both sporty and green should opt for the hybrid version of the Ford Fusion."

CR ended up getting 39 mpg overall (31 city /46 hwy) , 0-60 time 8.2 sec. and road test score 80, tied with Fusion hybrid.

 

So: Hyundai seems to have refined their 6-speed system and it now performs comparably overall to Ford's, but with greater differences between city  (worse) and hwy (better) than the Fusion.

I am not clear on what explains the differences in mpg between the lower and higher mpg "eco" models of say the Niro.

[SnowStorm]

Yikes - 3 clutches, 6 gears (or is it 7 with reverse?), 2 belts and 2 motors.  The C-Max has NO clutches, 1 gear (never shifts!), no belts and 2 motors.  All that complexity is another example of why "the ICE Age is ending"!  BEVs are sooooo simple by comparison.

 

Come on Ford, lets have that Model E with the body/doors of the B-Max and at least 1000 lbs of towing.

[ptjones]

Well I went and drove a Hyundai Ioniq last night in poring rain to start the first 7 miles. :sad:  Second I have a real problem with the split hatchback window, it's hard to see traffic behind you, poor design. :sad:  It drove pretty much the same as NIRO with no response off the line.   raadsel, you were right about car coasting down hill in normal mode and charging some in sport mode. You can't drive Ioniq like a CMAX, motor feels about half as powerful  as CMAX motors and there is no EV available power gauge to keep from turning the ICE on. Only once was I able to maintain 65 mph in EV for 200 yds before ICE came on in sport mode. It's very hard to charge the HVB, The CMAX is easy.   A couple of times from a full stop with no traffic behind me I went up to 38mph in EV only, it takes about a minute. :drop:  I think my CMAX can do it in fifteen sec. and go up to 50 mph. before it runs out of HVB.  Hard to get Ioniq charged passed 60% Sport, 50% Normal and the HVB is assisting the ICE a good % of the time so you can't go into EV unless you are going downhill and then you are coasting. :sad:  In heavy rain on the FWY the car got real light so I could only go 45-50 mph, I think it is around 400lbs lighter than CMAX, it had the wider tires and rated 53/54 mpg.  I averaged 45 mpg and 30 mph with 18 miles FWY and 5 mi. city.  I took a couple of pics with MADMAX and Ioniq SEL. I may need to make room in my gallery for them.  The CMAX looks so much bigger I don't understand how the Ioniq can have more room inside. :headscratch:  There is only 2.5" in length, the same in width and 7" lower.  I only was looking at the comparison of Hybrid performance for this test and it's like a Prius with a little bit more power.  I Really like my CMAX. :)

Paul

Edited August 11, 2017 by ptjones

[ptjones]

As far as style of driving goes, maybe I have a bit of a different point of view. While I commend Paul for his significant efforts to maximize fuel economy, I do not find driving to maximize FE as being safe in many scenarios.  For example, I often need to accelerate harder than "2 bars" so I can merge with traffic, I do not want to vary my speed in order to maximize time spent in EV mode because I would be in danger of being rear-ended, etc. I do try to maximize braking regeneration and will drive using FE techniques on occasion when I deem it to be safe. As a result, I am in EV mode about 15% of the time and I am averaging around 41 mpg. I am fine with that, and I am guessing many others are too.

It would be interesting to see your Life Time pic posted,  BTW I don't recommend using my techniques if conditions aren't safe to do.  I have no problem nailing it to get on the FWY if I need too. :shift:  I'm currently at 50.8% EV with 80% FWY on Fuelly. :)  Actually my techniques can be safer than driving "Normal" in stop in go traffic for example.  People will sit on your rear end no matter what you do so  I leave a good gap in front of me so I don't have to slam on my brakes and worry about someone running into my rear end.  :sad: You get better MPG's if you aren't stopping and better to keep even speed. :) With 41 mpg average you are doing better than the average on Fuelly of 39.5mpg. :yahoo:

 

Paul

 

Paul 

Edited August 14, 2017 by ptjones

[AZgman]

Not sure how to get to the lifetime stats. Frankly, the menu navigation on the C-max is not my favorite. I did just check the trip stats and with my wife driving it over the last 1241 miles she managed 355 EV miles!  Better than me!

[obob]

Not sure how to get to the lifetime stats. Frankly, the menu navigation on the C-max is not my favorite. I did just check the trip stats and with my wife driving it over the last 1241 miles she managed 355 EV miles!  Better than me!

 

As I recall, at some point Ford took that screen away.

[AZgman]

Ah, that would make it difficult to find then!  ;)

[ptjones]

Not sure how to get to the lifetime stats. Frankly, the menu navigation on the C-max is not my favorite. I did just check the trip stats and with my wife driving it over the last 1241 miles she managed 355 EV miles!  Better than me!

2016 doesn't have it. :sad:  Just don't reset Trip #2  I see she is getting 29% EV, tell her Good Job! :yahoo:

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

I took a look at the EPA FE test data for the 2017 C-Max, Priis, Niro and Ioniq for comparative purposes.  Based on the data, I constructed the following table of "expected" FE for the Priis, Niro, and Ioniq based on the differences between the road load HP coefficients for the vehicle ahieving the highest FE used in the dyno FE testing.  Of course, one can always operate vehicles to achieve more / less FE that expected and the oveall efficiency of the powertrain will affect actual FE.  

 

The interesting observation is that  the Prius and Prius V numbers below are in sync with the Priis EPA ratings. Not so with the Ioniq and Niro. The Priis and C-Max data also appears to be in sync with the average FE being shown in Fuelly.  For example, if you drive the C-Max and get 40 mpg in the C-Max, you might expect to get 48 mpg in the Ioniq, 44 in the Niro and so forth based on the difference between the C-Max and other vehicles RLHP.   Kia does IIRC claim there ICE is 40% efficient.  I don't believe the C-Max or Priis engines are that efficient. Time should tell as people report their FE to Fuelly.

 

 

This data is based on the RLHP curve data attached (sorry I can't upload in gallery as I reached my limit so I have to attach). 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ptjones]

Do you think it is possible for the EPA to use our technique of EV to 15 mph, use ICE to accelerate at 2 bars to cruising speed, then EV to get EPA Gas Mileage #s? I know this technique improves MPG's significantly maybe 4-5 mpg. :headscratch: 

 

Paul 

[plus 3 golfer]

I think the test cycles are based on how the "normal" driver accelerates, brakes, and so forth.  EPA has made changes to the cycles including adding cycles over time.  If one could show that Hybrid owners drive differently than the non-hybrid owners, perhaps additional cycles could be added just for hybrids.  But IMO, the acceleration at 2 bars is a lot slower than most drive (I even see Prius drivers accelerating quickly). :)

 

It appears that the fuelly data supports the C-Max, Prius, and Prius V EPA fuel economy numbers. Remember a few years ago when the EPA fined Kia $100 million (iirc) for over reporting their FE numbers.  We'll see if consumers can get the Niro and Ioniq FE they claim.  EPA likely won't change their current methodolgies if the consumers get reasonably close to the EPA ratings especially for hybrids.