ForScan Major Update Release

[plus 3 golfer]

As many know, ForScan is a Smartphone App that allows scanning (via the OBDII port using an ELM327 adapter) of virtually all PIDs for our C-Max.  Prior releases of ForScan did not allow scanning PIDs across modules.  One could only scan PIDs in one module at a time. Now, ForScan has an "ALL" module that when selected allows choosing PIDs to be scanned from all modules and displayed on the same screen.

 

In addition, there are now self tests that can be run on virtually all modules.  Also, the documentation has been significantly updated.  
 

Attached is a screenshot of PIDs from several modules - PCM, BCM, BECM, SOBDCM.

 

DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT. :)

 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ptjones]

What is G_PHTMP? :headscratch:

 

Paul

[djc]

Generator Inverter Phase Temperature -

see Snowstorm's post here:

 

http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/4840-installed-trans-heater-pad/page-3

[ptjones]

Generator Inverter Phase Temperature -

see Snowstorm's post here:

 

http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/4840-installed-trans-heater-pad/page-3

 

I monitor TFT using ScanGaugeII and I'm wondering how much of a difference in temp there is. :headscratch:

 

Paul

[djc]

Inverter temp reminds me of the losses during regen.  So which is more efficient:

1. Going down hill in neutral, accelerating from gravity.

2. Descending same hill at constant velocity while charging HVB.

 

In first case, the car gains kinetic energy.  Losses are mainly to tires and drag from increased speed.

In second case, losses are to inverter + generator.  And maybe heat loss in the HVB itself.

[homestead]

Inverter temp reminds me of the losses during regen.  So which is more efficient:

1. Going down hill in neutral, accelerating from gravity.

2. Descending same hill at constant velocity while charging HVB.

 

In first case, the car gains kinetic energy.  Losses are mainly to tires and drag from increased speed.

In second case, losses are to inverter + generator.  And maybe heat loss in the HVB itself.

 

While being in neutral accelerating the car may be more efficient, roads have curves and speed limits which limit

 

the efficiency.  So it is much more practical to charge up the the HVB and use it when its needed later.

[SnowStorm]

The difference is likely to be slight and it would be very difficult to run a statistically significant and sufficiently accurate test to prove it out.  I generally agree with homestead.  If I knew there was a difference and had to pick, I'd pick neutral as more efficient but would "recommend" letting the car regen.  I almost never use neutral, maybe 1 or 2 miles out of 1000 - too much trouble and possible safety issue.

[ptjones]

Inverter temp reminds me of the losses during regen.  So which is more efficient:

1. Going down hill in neutral, accelerating from gravity.

2. Descending same hill at constant velocity while charging HVB.

 

In first case, the car gains kinetic energy.  Losses are mainly to tires and drag from increased speed.

In second case, losses are to inverter + generator.  And maybe heat loss in the HVB itself.

Here is my take on this:

 

Most of my coasting in neutral is at FWY speeds and usually on long down hills.  I will use D with EV or ICE to get to traffic speeds and then shift to N, if I continue to gain speed at around 5 mph over I'll shift back to D to maintain speed with regen. This usually keeps me from increasing speed, but when I start losing speed I'll go back to N.  When I drop below traffic speed I'll switch back to D and EV to maintain speed as long as I can.

 

In your first case the only loss different from your second case would be aero drag, tires losses would be about same for both cases. Gains would be lowering HVB temp causing higher output Wattage from HVB which I see alot of the time when doing N coasting. :) Somewhere I read Regen was around 80% efficient where as  Coasting in Neutral is close to 100%.

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

Inverter temp reminds me of the losses during regen.  So which is more efficient:

1. Going down hill in neutral, accelerating from gravity.

2. Descending same hill at constant velocity while charging HVB.

 

In first case, the car gains kinetic energy.  Losses are mainly to tires and drag from increased speed.

In second case, losses are to inverter + generator.  And maybe heat loss in the HVB itself.

I modeled this a few years ago.  Shifting into neutral wins.  The efficiency of the traction motor, inverter, wiring, HVB would be at best case 95% for the motor (more likely 92%), 97 % for the inverter (more likely 95%), 97% for the HVB (more likely 95%) and the wiring 99%.  So, Best Case = 0.95 * 0.97 * 0.99 * 0.97 * 0.99* 0.97 * 0.95 = 81 % and More likely Case = 71%.  I also ran regeneration test and did a literature search on efficiency of regeneration.  It seems that the capture of kinetic energy and reuse of such energy to propel the car is likely to be less than 70%.  IIRC, I got more like 65% efficiency when I ran tests.  I believe I referenced the research studies in a prior thread.

 

Also, on steeper, longer hills the HVB will fill up and ICE will be used for engine braking in D. So, I doubt the additional drag on the car when shifting to N would exceed 30%.  Of course if you were going down say a 12% grade your speed may pick up such that you have to shift back to D.  When I tested shifting to N on the interstates, it takes a fairly steep hill at 75 mph  before speed will increase much.  A few mph increase will be less than the 30%. 

Edited April 10, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[djc]

Thanks all for the answers.   I should have mentioned safety and legality as a practical limit on free-wheeling speeds down hills; I agree of course.  Not that I have always been so concerned with these safety limits. I remember taking my Dad's 1961 Oldsmobile F85 late at night to the top of the Puente Hills east of L.A.    The Olds had a small aluminum V8 and 2-speed (!) transmission; I would put the car in neutral and turn off the engine while heading down the winding road back to the valley.  With the engine off there was just the whoosh of the wind noise, a bit like flying a glider.  It is nice to be able to get a similar experience more safely in the C-max, but I no longer head out after midnight just to get it....

 

My impression is that eco-cruise does let my speed run up some while going down a hill, while at the same time doing regen.  Yes? 

[ptjones]

Thanks all for the answers.   I should have mentioned safety and legality as a practical limit on free-wheeling speeds down hills; I agree of course.  Not that I have always been so concerned with these safety limits. I remember taking my Dad's 1961 Oldsmobile F85 late at night to the top of the Puente Hills east of L.A.    The Olds had a small aluminum V8 and 2-speed (!) transmission; I would put the car in neutral and turn off the engine while heading down the winding road back to the valley.  With the engine off there was just the whoosh of the wind noise, a bit like flying a glider.  It is nice to be able to get a similar experience more safely in the C-max, but I no longer head out after midnight just to get it....

 

My impression is that eco-cruise does let my speed run up some while going down a hill, while at the same time doing regen.  Yes? 

This is true. :)

 

Paul

[stolenmoment]

Hmmm, my Energi tells me that I typically get about 20% regained by regen (trip & charge log: 10.3 mi, 2.0 miles from regen).  I drive in L after the first mile or so, and generally get 4mi/kWh.  This is on gently rolling eastern Mass topography, with the overall run slightly uphill.  The homeward (downhill) gets me 2.8 regen miles and 5.25 mi/kWh.

 

I never use N, L lets me control the speed as I wish as I drive one-pedal except for real stops.

[plus 3 golfer]

Hmmm, my Energi tells me that I typically get about 20% regained by regen (trip & charge log: 10.3 mi, 2.0 miles from regen).  I drive in L after the first mile or so, and generally get 4mi/kWh.  This is on gently rolling eastern Mass topography, with the overall run slightly uphill.  The homeward (downhill) gets me 2.8 regen miles and 5.25 mi/kWh.

 

I never use N, L lets me control the speed as I wish as I drive one-pedal except for real stops.

So there is no confusion, the 20% is not the efficiency of the regeneration process:  converting the kinetic energy of motion to mechanical energy via the transaxel, to electrical energy via the traction motor, to DC via the inverter, to storage in the HVB, to AC via the inverter, to mechanical energy via the traction motor, and lastly back to kinetic energy via the transaxel to propel the car.   The 20% is simply the amount of distance driven provided by the regeneration process over total distance that was traveled.  IIRC, there was discussion on how the regen miles and brake score are actually computed and the accuracy of the computation.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[plus 3 golfer]

...

Edited April 12, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[plus 3 golfer]

I monitor TFT using ScanGaugeII and I'm wondering how much of a difference in temp there is. :headscratch:

 

Paul

I believe I posted about the relationship among TFT, the generator coil temp, and the motor coil temp with numbers.   IIRC, during regen the motor coil temp climbs quickly above TFT depending on amount of regen and time.  You can watch the current (I think inverter but maybe motor, can't recall) for indication of how much regen.  Eventually, TFT will climb if the regen is long (going down longer hill).   When using the traction motor (88 kW) to propel the car, the event is shorter and motor coil temp doesn't rise much and has little effect on TFT.   When charging the HVB with the generator (64 kW), generator coil temp and TFT are fairly stable as the generator is smaller, the battery sustained charge rate is limited to 35 kW, and the control algorithm should operate ICE to efficiently split the power between charging and propelling the car.  Thus, charging the HVB via the generator is likely significantly less kW than with regen and hence temps don't increase as much.

 

Bottom line IMO, TFT should be all that needs monitored.  However, if TFT seems higher than normal, one can check the other temp sensors including cylinder head, coolant, coil and so forth.  I'll see if I can find the post(s) about these coil temps.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[plus 3 golfer]

Below is data on the coil temps.  I did not have ForScan when I ran these tests about 3 years ago.  We'll be making a trip to Flagstaff in the next several months.  So, I'll capture data on these temps for analysis.

 

Relatively flat road with very slight rolling terrain.

No grille covers.

ICE at operating temperature

Ambient Temp = 90 F

AC on at 74 set point

30 Mile Round trip

 - 20 miles at 67-72 mph with one exit to turn around

 - 10 miles at 25 - 55 mph with several stops each direction

 

Temperature Range:

140 F < TFT < 148 F

160 F < Motor Coil Temp < 175 F

150 F < Generator Coil Temp < 165 F

 

Motor coil temps were highest at the end of regenerative braking. When high speed cruising, temperatures varied little and were about in the middle of the ranges above.

[djc]

Attached is a screenshot of PIDs from several modules - PCM, BCM, BECM, SOBDCM.

 

DON'T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT. :)

 

P3G,

 

Could you walk us through these parameters you have chosen to display on the screenshot you attached to your original post, explaining what they are and why you find them useful (besides the tire pressures?)

 

I am thinking the 12v battery charge would be interesting to know.  Maybe also info on whether the friction brakes are about to engage?

  If so, do you know the names of parameters available in Forscan that might show those?

Is there any mpg info that is good to know but that is not clear from the stock Empower /MyView etc displays included on the C-max dash?

[plus 3 golfer]

I just picked PIDs from different modules - nothing special.

 

The car was in the garage for an hour after being driven.  We reached triple digits that day.  Garage was hot and inside the car was even hotter when I decided to check out the new release.

 

So, I picked the interior cabin  temp, the internal inverter temp, generator coil temp, and  the cylinder head temp to see how hot it was in the garage.  We discussed before the resetting of the 12 V battery age (days since I reset it).  I always monitor tire pressure. I noted that the battery symbol showed about 25%.  So I picked HVB SOC and the HVB displayed SOC and the HVB voltage to see how low it was. 

 

Prior to this release, I picked maybe 6-10 items to monitor in about 1/2 the modules and would flip through the modules - about a six step process to switch to a different module. Now I should be able to put virtually all those PIDs on the "ALL" module and simply swipe the sceen to scroll through the data.  

[plus 3 golfer]

djc, in reply to monitoring friction braking.  Below is a test I did and posted prior on friction brakes and brake score.

 

"Here's an example, one can monitor the left and right front ABS pressure sensors.  In preliminary testing, I wanted to see if I could use this data to apply the maximum brake pressure and still score 100% brake score. There was a post / thread very early on where someone wanted an indication of how much brake pedal could be used before friction braking took over and reduced the brake score.  The nominal brake pressure readings were under about 7 psi cruising (probably sensor variability).  I began to depress the brake pedal to slow down.  If the pressure sensor reading didn't change, I scored 100% brake score.  As I pressed the brake pedal harder, there was a point where the pressure reading jumped to mid teens PSI.  I could not "feel" that the frictionbrakes were applied. The brake score was 96%. "

 

BTW, I broke down and purchased the OBDLink MX module ($80.15) to replace my "generic" bluetooth ELM327.  I will now be able to monitor modules on the lower speed CAN without needing a toggle switch. Should have it next week.  I noted there are now many generic ELM327 modules that can be purchased with the toggle switch added. 

[plus 3 golfer]

Received my OBDlink MX module today.    It is significantly faster than my old ELM327.  I can read the 15 - HS CAN modules and now the 9 - MS CAN modules - GPSM, InstrumentPanelC, AudioControlM, RemoteFunctionActuator, HVAC, DriverDoorM, PassengerDoorM, FrontControlsIM, DiditalAudioCMC, GateWayM.

[djc]

Thanks much P3G for the brake pressure info. 

A year or so I bought the cheaper LX model obdii reader - seems to work fine with Forscan.  I did have some trouble losing connection when I tried it last week - could be my phone.

This morning I stumbled upon an "Insignia" (= BestBuy) Windows tablet i have and thought I would charge it up and download Forscan since the Windows version is free.  But - of course! - the tablet shows no sign of accepting charge.  With an 8" screen it would have been a nice way to monitor multiple obdii parameters.

[plus 3 golfer]

Yes, I have the windows free version on my 12" 2-1 .  It is nice to have the large screen. But it's too large to mount for easy viewing when driving.  However, I used the free version to reset my 12 V Battery Age which is not available on the Smartphone Lite versions.   

[SnowStorm]

Received my OBDlink MX module today.    It is significantly faster than my old ELM327.  I can read the 15 - HS CAN modules and now the 9 - MS CAN modules - GPSM, InstrumentPanelC, AudioControlM, RemoteFunctionActuator, HVAC, DriverDoorM, PassengerDoorM, FrontControlsIM, DiditalAudioCMC, GateWayM.

Does the OBDLink MX have a physical switch to get to MS-CAN bus that you have to flip manually?  It doesn't look like it.  I've been thinking I should get this module as my cheap one doesn't do MS and drops connection frequently (I'm, assuming its the modules fault - who knows).  Also, do you leave it plugged in all the time?  If so, does it start communicating the next time you drive without having to unplug / plug it in again?

[plus 3 golfer]

There is no switch in the MX module.  ForScan should be set to Auto scan.  However, you will likely have to uninstall the ForScan App and reinstall it as ForScan Forum says that the first time your vehicle is scanned, your car make and model is detected, the appropriate configuration data is built for your vehicle, and it will not include the MS -CAN if the MS-CAN could not be found on the initial connection to the vehicle (old ELM327 connected only to the HS-CAN).  I had to reinstall ForScan.

 

Yes, I'd lose connection also with my old module and older phone frequently.  This was a bummer when recording data as I'd have to start over.  It was less frequent with my new phone which had a faster processor.  So, I think it's a combination slow module and slow phone.  The minimum delay of my old module ("Minimal response time (ping) – minimal possible time from the moment request to adapter is sent to the moment the response from adapter is received") was generally 50 msec or greater.  The MX is generally under 10 msec. See attachment for how ForScan rates response time.  

 

I got in the habit of pulling the old Elm out. So, I'm pulling the MX out also.  Supposedly, the MX has a power saver feature so it shouldn't drain the battery. If ForScan is set to autoconnect, it should start scanning when the APP is started up assuming module is plugged in.

 

[djc]

The LX has no switch either; just seems to read all modules it can find. 

I've been leaving the LX plugged in.  My impression is that either it shuts down, or the car shuts down the 12V to the obdii port at some point.

 

My Insignia tablet running Windows did revive - apparently if the charge is low enough, it doesn't even light an "i'm charging" LED.  I installed the free Windows version of Forscan.

The Forscan user interface is cumbersome, uses tiny icons for everything and is (for me) is very not intuitive. 

I did try the brake pressure parameter in the ABS module and (I think) it did a good job showing the shift from regen to friction braking.