2019 Toyota RAV4

[stratosurfer]

All,

After the ecvt decline plus the C-Max's lack of rated towing capability I have settled on a new 2019 Toyota RAV4 as my next purchase. I'm passing the C-Max (after eCVT replacement) to my daughter at college. The specs on the new RAV-4 are fairly impressive and it is rated to tow 1,750 lbs. It is a Full 2 motor-generator Hybrid with planetary gear drivetrain. It is very close in physical specs to a C-Max, width the same, the R-4 is about 5 inches longer and weighs 500 lbs more, apparently the battery is considerably bigger, as well it has a 2.5 liter engine. There not cheap, I'm quoted about $38,000 OTD with LXE trim (one level down from the top trim, but has a sunroof, premium sound ect, as well as leather interior. All the Rav4 Hybrids are AWD, no option for FWD.

MPG seems just slightly below that of the C-Max, but not much. The reviews are it has terrific power and acceleration, something I have loved about the C-Max.

I have been struggling with what to get, this seems perfect for my misison of towing up to 2,000lbs of waverunners, and routinely towing 1,000lbs of waverunners of very long tow trips.

 

Mark

Edited July 10, 2019 by stratosurfer

[zalusky]

Yea I am excited to check out the Hybrid CRV, Rav4, and Escape vehicles at this falls autoshow.

[MaxHeadroom]

The RAV4 has better MPG than the C-Max, which is remarkable considering it's AWD and heavier, with higher drag, more ground clearance.

I guess that's newer tech at work, and Toyota knows what they are doing.

Price is very reasonable for what it is.  Only $27k for the base RAV4 Hybrid.

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by MaxHeadroom

[ptjones]

Actually the 2018 CMAX Hybrid gets 42 city/38 HYW/ 40 combined and is $3k cheaper. https://www.ford.com/services/assets/Brochure?make=Ford&bodystyle=Hatchback&model=C-MAX&year=2018  Old 2019 RAV4 Hybrid only gets around 34 MPG and there is no info on 2020 RAV4 yet on fuelly.

 

Paul

[MaxHeadroom]

Actually the 2018 CMAX Hybrid gets 42 city/38 HYW/ 40 combined and is $3k cheaper.

Mine is a 2015, which is EPA-rated lower than the new '19 RAV4 Hybrid.

You really can't compare the C-Max directly to a RAV4 that much, since it's heavier with AWD as well.

I'm thinking about starting a thread as to why the 2017/18 C-Max gets better MPG and is faster 0-60 as well than a 2016 or prior C-Max.

[ptjones]

Looking at Fuelly.com 2017 CMAX Hybrid doesn't get better MPG's than earlier Hybrid if you take out the Energi's from the mix. Not sure why the 2018's are doing better other than there is only 9 and no ENG's in there.  I haven't had the chance to drive a 2018 CMAX.

 

There are two 2019 RAV4 Hybrids on Fuelly so not a good to put much into it, with 8 fillups with more city 41.5 mpg. http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/rav4/2019?engineconfig_id=&bodytype_id=&submodel_id=77532

 

Paul

[stratosurfer]

I was reading a number of things Toyota seems to have the lead on, and the ICE engine itself they are claiming 41% thermal efficiency vs the standard 25 to 30%. The name some of the changes they use to accomplish this, but notable are the 13 to 1 compression ratio and the fact it still runs 87 octane. They say they run the engine much hotter to get better combustion. I seems like quite a few updates on top of a new chassis and sheet metal. The rear axle is AWD via a motor generator, no mechanical connection. The towing capability has sealed the deal for me. I went to the dealership and physically measured my C-Max and the RAV-4 and they are -very- close in dimensions. I think the extra 500 lbs is due to AWD, the extra axle and motor/generator and the fact that the RAV-4 hybrid does not use a LI-ION HVB pack, but NiMh instead. There are some very good articles on why Toyota chose to use NiMh instead of LiOn HVB pack. The Toyota engineer discussing it said that the hybrid drive is set up to use either type (LiON or NiMh) from the factory, and that they can go back and forth based upon pricing and availability. So theoretically the RAV-4 pack in the future should it fail, could be replaced by a LiOn pack or cell replacement. As well later releases within the same year can be shipped with either pack.

[ptjones]

NiMh HVB weights more, cheaper and doesn't have the capacity for the same size LI-ION HVB.   :sad:  You can't use the same charging system.

 

Paul

[fbov]

... claiming 41% thermal efficiency vs the standard 25 to 30%. ... 13 to 1 compression ratio and the fact it still runs 87 octane. ....

... theoretically the RAV-4 pack in the future should it fail, could be replaced by a LiOn pack...

The 13:1 CR is a bit of a red herring; it assumes a normal 100% intake cycle. Our Atkinson engines use intake valve timing to reduce that to 90% of displacement, so actual compression ratio, in the cylinder, is more like 11.7:1. Our cars are 11.1:1. 

 

I have a robovac that uses NiMh batteries. They last a year, running it twice a week. I'm not impressed with that technology's longevity. 

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[djc]

I don't know how recent the Fuelly data are but many 2018's would only be seeing their first winter, and in cold climates winters will bring down their (very short) life-time mpg's.  So maybe it is common for the most recent year of any hybrid model to show better cumulative mpg for awhile, then regress to the mean (?)

Edited April 30, 2019 by djc

[stratosurfer]

I don't know how recent the Fuelly data are but many 2018's would only be seeing their first winter, and in cold climates winters will bring down their (very short) life-time mpg's.  So maybe it is common for the most recent year of any hybrid model to show better cumulative mpg for awhile, then regress to the mean

There is an article I hit on a Google Search, If I can find it I'll put the link up. In it the Toyota Engineer over HVB's states that the NiMh batts are actually better performers in cold climates and one of the reasons they went NiMh for the Rav-4 Hybrid all they only come in AWD and the AWD system is non mechanical. This doesn't help me down here in the south...

[stratosurfer]

Here is the article I mentioned:

 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1120320_lithium-ion-vs-nickel-metal-hydride-toyota-still-likes-both-for-its-hybrids

[ptjones]

" a NiMH pack will weigh about 25 percent more (165 pounds, versus 132 pounds) and occupy about 20 percent more volume than a lithium-ion pack with a comparable output and usable capacity. "  It would seem they could make it a plugin using Lion in the same space.

 

Paul

[Billyk24]

I got my hands on a low (17,000) mileage 2016 RAV4 Hybrid after my 2005 FEH flunked the state inspection due to rust.   2013-2018 RAV4 Hybrid are of the same "design".  The RAV4 H has three (3) electronic motors with the third one propelling the rear wheels and capturing regenerative braking/coasting energy.  IT regenerates at a higher rate than the 2017 Cmax energy that I have.   On an 8 percent 0.7 mile long downhill I usually pick up 11-12% SOC increases with the RAV4 Hybrid which is about 5 more than my CMax will do.   The AWD design in this vehicle is unlike the FEH in that the front wheels really need to "slip" before it will engage at speeds above 15 mph.   It engages, operates and then will quickly disengage when the front wheels stop slippage where as my 4WD 2005 FEH would engage and then gradually disengage after every time I pressed the accelerator.   I have seen it engage at upper 30 mph speeds but no higher and is rumored to not operate at above 45 mph.     The stock and premium sound systems are poor and I ended up replacing all speakers and adding a subwoofer to obtain adequate sound.    The navigational unit is terrible when compared to my Cmax.     The mileage (mpg) is significantly greater than my 2005 FEH and during many weekends in the past twelve weeks, I was driving long distances on the interstates usually holding around  64-65 mph and averaging 30-33 when temperatures in the 20-30s.  Lower with colder temperatures or strong headwinds.           

 

The 2019/2020 RAV4 Hybrid has a fuel tank issue in which owners can not put in a full tank amount of fuel for unknown reasons.    A plug-in hybrid is arriving this summer but it is unknown whether this is air or liquid cooled.