2013 CMax Hybrid SEL AGM battery?

[pianewman]

I searched, couldn't find any threads on this.

 

Has anyone replaced the OEM 12V battery with an AGM battery? We continue to have battery failures, and I'm wondering if the AGM battery would be a better battery?

[ptjones]

Biggest problem would be to find one that would fit.

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

How old is your 12 V battery?  Time how long it takes for the radio to shut down: after starting car, turn radio on, shut car off and time until radio shuts down but do not open doors during this period. 

 

What is your 12 V battery voltage with car off under hood in the evening a few hours after shutdown and early in the am before you start the car?  An AGM battery unless it has significantly more Ah of capacity likely won't help.  You don't need a deep cycle battery nor a high current discharge battery for the C-Max.  AGMs are good for cycling applications like ICE cars that shut ICE off, then restart ICE. There have been some that have put in an AGM (Optima IIRC) and had to modify the battery tray / compartment.

 

You should not have to put a battery tender on as I believe you indicated in other posts unless 1) you have a parasitic load draining battery when car is off, 2) you don't operate car long enough to charge battery (always at a low SOC), 3) the Battery Management System was not reset after battery replacements (BMS will believe battery has lost significant capacity), or 4) combination of preceding.  

[pianewman]

97k miles. Dallas/Ft Worth heat. 1st OEM battery replaced at time of (previously owned) purchase, at 40k miles.

 

This is my son's car, so it doesn't get my OCD attention. He's a grad student, only uses the car for jazz gigs, driving highway from Denton--Dallas--Ft. Worth. I'll assume at this point almost zero short distance drives.

 

1)Second 12V battery replaced, 12/26/18. (So the car is on its 3rd battery) Dealership assured me BMS was reset, that was 21 months ago, with no battery failure issues. I've not tried the "ignition off/radio on" time to shutdown, may try that later this evening.

 

2) I understand the need to correct any parasitic drain prior to any battery replacement. 

 

3) I brought the car home (AAA jump started "totally dead battery, showing 0 CCA. Interesting that SYNC/Radio came to life after the jump start...radio had stopped working several days ago). I will put it on 4amp charger overnight, so at least I can get it to the dealership tomorrow AM. Dealership has a 1-2 day backup for electrical work.

 

All the "dead 12V battery" posts have me paying attention. We've put almost 60k miles on the car (purchased around 40k miles), with no issues until the battery failed Dec. 2018. 

 

Thanks for all the input. I really appreciate it.

Edited September 25, 2019 by pianewman

[plus 3 golfer]

(delete duplicate)

Edited September 25, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[plus 3 golfer]

If he drives it only occasionally between Denton, Dallas, Fort Worth, he won't put much charge in the battery.  For example, below is a graph of 50 minutes of driving my C-Max and recording charging current, voltage, and SOC.  Here's my more detailed post on the Energi forum.  About 1.45 Ah of charge was added to the battery.  Because the charging current is only about 0.88 after 50 minutes and will continue to drop, very little Ah will be added after 49 minutes.  From previous recordings, my guess is that after another one hour of driving, one might see another 0.8 Ah added.  

 

If the car has a 50 mA sleep current draw, for every day the car is not driven, the battery will lose 1.2 Ah of charge + normal self-discharge.  So, one can see that it's likely that over several months of limited driving, the battery could lose most of it's charge.  Normal self discharge according to Battery University is 5% per month.  But at 80 F another source says 4% per week. 

 

One other point, the C-Max battery capacity is about 43 Ah when new.  The fact that it's 21 months old means it's lost some capacity and cannot be charged to 43 Ah.  So, this lost capacity coupled with the above will yield a "dead" battery sooner as the battery ages.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[stratosurfer]

I put an Odyssey AGM battery in my 2013 SEL and it is I believe the best solution. I called an Odyssey distributor in CA who matched dimensions and posts to the OEM and it fit with a little ingenuity. I had to put some pool floaty foam to keep it from moving and I believe a piece of cut pvc pipe to ensure the POS terminal didn't bounce up and touch the frame, no big deal. That was last winter, no issues. I may not have to replace that battery again in the remaining life of this C-Max.

[raadsel]

If he drives it only occasionally between Denton, Dallas, Fort Worth, he won't put much charge in the battery.  For example, below is a graph of 50 minutes of driving my C-Max and recording charging current, voltage, and SOC.  Here's my more detailed post on the Energi forum.  About 1.45 Ah of charge was added to the battery.  Because the charging current is only about 0.88 after 50 minutes and will continue to drop, very little Ah will be added after 49 minutes.  From previous recordings, my guess is that after another one hour of driving, one might see another 0.8 Ah added.  

 

If the car has a 50 mA sleep current draw, for every day the car is not driven, the battery will lose 1.2 Ah of charge + normal self-discharge.  So, one can see that it's likely that over several months of limited driving, the battery could lose most of it's charge.  Normal self discharge according to Battery University is 5% per month.  But at 80 F another source says 4% per week. 

 

One other point, the C-Max battery capacity is about 43 Ah when new.  The fact that it's 21 months old means it's lost some capacity and cannot be charged to 43 Ah.  So, this lost capacity coupled with the above will yield a "dead" battery sooner as the battery ages.

  

12 V Battery.JPG

 

I'm not sure I can agree with this. From what I see, your graph and testing was done with a full battery -- and of course a mostly full battery is not going to require much charge. Starting the C-Max requires very little power, as all it is doing is starting the computers; the engine is started by the hybrid battery and that is where most power for conventional 12V batteries is used. And the drain on the 12V battery when the car is running is quite low as you are only running things like the lights, battery, and fans for the climate system -- the A/C is again powered by the hybrid battery; so there is typically little reason, with a healthy battery, for the 12V battery to charge much over a typical driving session. Additionally, with the 12V battery being charged by the hybrid battery, it can charge that battery relatively quickly -- then the engine will just run more (or a bit harder) to bring the hybrid battery levels back up.

 

The key to me here is the fact the radio wasn't working. I had a similar problem just a few days ago, where my radio quit working and one day I go out and find the 12V battery had zero charge. Once we jumped the car, it started right up -- again, the 12V requires very little power to start the car so it needs little power to jump (the 12V battery really doesn't need to recharge before jump starting the car). In my case we had several days of rain or I would have gone out and pulled the entertainment system fuse to "reboot" the radio -- and that would have likely corrected the parasitic drain that killed my 12V battery. My battery is maybe one year old, temps at the time the battery completely drained were in the 70s to low 80s with cloud cover.

[SnowStorm]

When the car is "running", there should be no drain on the 12V battery - all 12V loads are supplied by the DC/DC converter off of the HVB.  At the same time the DC/DC converter is supplying charge to the 12V battery.

[homestead]

When the car is "running", there should be no drain on the 12V battery - all 12V loads are supplied by the DC/DC converter off of the HVB. At the same time the DC/DC converter is supplying charge to the 12V battery.

Does the converter ever turn off if it senses the battery is fully charged?

[plus 3 golfer]

I'm not sure I can agree with this. From what I see, your graph and testing was done with a full battery -- and of course a mostly full battery is not going to require much charge. Starting the C-Max requires very little power, as all it is doing is starting the computers; the engine is started by the hybrid battery and that is where most power for conventional 12V batteries is used. And the drain on the 12V battery when the car is running is quite low as you are only running things like the lights, battery, and fans for the climate system -- the A/C is again powered by the hybrid battery; so there is typically little reason, with a healthy battery, for the 12V battery to charge much over a typical driving session. Additionally, with the 12V battery being charged by the hybrid battery, it can charge that battery relatively quickly -- then the engine will just run more (or a bit harder) to bring the hybrid battery levels back up.

 

The key to me here is the fact the radio wasn't working. I had a similar problem just a few days ago, where my radio quit working and one day I go out and find the 12V battery had zero charge. Once we jumped the car, it started right up -- again, the 12V requires very little power to start the car so it needs little power to jump (the 12V battery really doesn't need to recharge before jump starting the car). In my case we had several days of rain or I would have gone out and pulled the entertainment system fuse to "reboot" the radio -- and that would have likely corrected the parasitic drain that killed my 12V battery. My battery is maybe one year old, temps at the time the battery completely drained were in the 70s to low 80s with cloud cover.

The 12 V battery has a SOC of 44% not a full charge. Look at the graph. The SOC of the HVB is not material to the charging algorithm. On a recent 2 1/2 hour trip, 12 V battery SOC went from IIRC 43% to about 58%. The point is you don't want your battery sitting at a very low SOC because driving occasionally will not charge the battery very much if at all to negate normal daily battery drain for any longer period of time. So any parasitic drain (including radio issue) could easily drain battery in hours.

 

And, the DC/DC converter does not charge the 12 V battery very quickly - it is not a quick charger. The C-Max battery is sealed and one cannot readily added water. Thus, fast charging is a not recommended. Charging current must be limited so that water isn't "boiled" away. I believe it is around a C/3 limit generally. So, if our battery is rated 43 Ah when new, the charging current should be no more than about 14 A initially. That's about as high as I've seen and for a very brief period of time (a few minutes or so) when the battery was newer. As the battery ages, resistance of the cells increases and Ah capacity declines, so the C/3 rate drops. Otherwise, if one "forces" 14 A through an old battery by increasing voltage, it will get too hot. So, the algorithm instead of a desired starting charging voltage of 14.8 (highest I've seen), the charging voltage may be lowered to 14.5 /14.4 V to limit charging current and battery temperature.

 

Here's some data from one of my trips. It took 3 days of driving 1916 miles in 28 hours and 16 minutes to reach 92% from a starting SOC of 3%. For the first 4 hours of operations, current averaged around 0.75 A and SOC went from 3% to about 50%. During the next 8 hours, current averaged about 0.5 A and SOC went up to 80%. During the last 16 hours , current averaged about 0.19 A and state of charge ended at 92 %. From about 88% SOC, current was running about 0.12 A with 0.06 showing up sometimes. There was no abrupt change in current just a slow drop - slower charge rate as SOC increased.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[plus 3 golfer]

Does the converter ever turn off if it senses the battery is fully charged?

No, because there is always load to serve including "trickle" charging the 12 V battery when the car is on (ready to drive).  When the car is off, the converter shuts down and the 12 V battery supplies the load still connected including powering active modules.  

[pianewman]

I'm not sure I can agree with this. From what I see, your graph and testing was done with a full battery -- and of course a mostly full battery is not going to require much charge. Starting the C-Max requires very little power, as all it is doing is starting the computers; the engine is started by the hybrid battery and that is where most power for conventional 12V batteries is used. And the drain on the 12V battery when the car is running is quite low as you are only running things like the lights, battery, and fans for the climate system -- the A/C is again powered by the hybrid battery; so there is typically little reason, with a healthy battery, for the 12V battery to charge much over a typical driving session. Additionally, with the 12V battery being charged by the hybrid battery, it can charge that battery relatively quickly -- then the engine will just run more (or a bit harder) to bring the hybrid battery levels back up.

 

The key to me here is the fact the radio wasn't working. I had a similar problem just a few days ago, where my radio quit working and one day I go out and find the 12V battery had zero charge. Once we jumped the car, it started right up -- again, the 12V requires very little power to start the car so it needs little power to jump (the 12V battery really doesn't need to recharge before jump starting the car). In my case we had several days of rain or I would have gone out and pulled the entertainment system fuse to "reboot" the radio -- and that would have likely corrected the parasitic drain that killed my 12V battery. My battery is maybe one year old, temps at the time the battery completely drained were in the 70s to low 80s with cloud cover.

Curiously, when we removed SYNC/Radio fuses to attempt a reboot, there was no change. The SYNC/Radio still wasn't functioning.

[pianewman]

Kept the battery on a 4 amp charger overnight Wed-Thurs, still drawing 2 amps after 12 hours. Took to dealer Thurs. AM, awaiting a phone call.

 

SOOO...the moral of the story? If the CMax is only driven 35-45 miles at a time, the SOC will continue to drop, and any slight additional draw (listening the the radio after shutdown) will kill the battery?

 

Will installing an AGM help mediate this?

 

Should I use the BatteryTenderPlus every 3-4 weeks or so?

 

(I WILL carry a Lithium quickcharge in the car at all times. Even the Ford service adviser recommended I do this...ridiculous necessity...)

Edited September 27, 2019 by pianewman

[plus 3 golfer]

If you drive it 35 / 45 miles only once a week or so, yes the SOC could gradually decrease. It really is more time related than miles related. Again, once the SOC is very low, the algorithm will charge a little faster. Also, it depends on the sleep load draw. When one opens a door and “disturbs” the sleep mode, draw will substantially increase for some time (I believe SS put a recorder on his battery to look at draw when car is off. Do the time test on the radio.

 

AGM simply costs more and likely last longer. But that’s do to construction. I don’t believe battery fade is any different between AGM and flooded. For the charging algorithm to work correctly, the AGM capacity should be around 43 + Ah. Putting a larger capacity battery in (say 60 Ah) will likely result in it being continually undercharged. Yes, I would just put your external charger on once a month or so on the OEM battery. You can also, after the car has been off for several hours, measure the battery voltage with a meter with the car off. If you get around 12.0 volts or lower, I’d put the charger on as your SOC is likely around 20% or less. See link below: your SOC is likely just under the C/100 curve and above the C/20 curve.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/EheHZ.png

[/url]

Edited September 27, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[homestead]

 

SOOO...the moral of the story? If the CMax is only driven 35-45 miles at a time, the SOC will continue to drop, and any slight additional draw (listening the the radio after shutdown) will kill the battery?

 

 

We drive short trips most of the time <5 miles.  In 6.5 years never had a dead battery.  I think the problem is some cars the current draw continues after shutdown.

Difficult problem to troubleshoot.

We also listen to the radio after shutdown too.

[plus 3 golfer]

I’ve never had a dead battery either in nearly 7 years and for 2 years on most days we drove less than 15 minutes round trip and my SOC was generally single digits except on longer drives. Car always started. But 2 startups a day and running 7 minutes will add around 2% to the SOC (see graph) which is less than a normal overnight draw. Also, the battery saver algorithm will shut down radio quicker if on for low SOC - mine was well under one minute at single digit SOC.

[pianewman]

Dealer just phoned. They are replacing the battery (#4!) since this one failed at 21 months. They promised that everything will be reset.

 

They could find nothing wrong with the electrical system. Hmm...

 

Curiously, our 2017 Fusion Energi (now 30k miles, purchased around 19k miles) just had its battery replaced (under warranty), so now on #2. Even shorter distances than the CMax, as my wife's commute is 7 miles. r/t. I'll keep an eye on the battery.

 

TX heat has been relentless this year, so...

 

Both cars have pigtail leads for quick plugin of BatteryTenderPlus. I will be more diligent about using it, to keep batteries charged. I will leave the emerg lithium jump charger in my son's CMax, since he lives in an apt and has no access to 120v outlet to charge his car.

[SnowStorm]

I think the only real fix to many dead 12V battery problems is Ford's 15B04 CSP (Customer Satisfaction Program).  See if your dealer can determine if it was ever done on your car.  If not, check into having it done.  Ford's reason for the CSP was:

 

In some of the affected vehicles, certain electronic control modules may not time out/power down
correctly when the vehicle is not in use, keeping the onboard module communication network
active. This may cause the 12 volt battery to discharge after being parked overnight or for a short
period of time, resulting in a no start condition.

 

Just opening the car door and closing it again can send battery current to over 11 amps for 10-15 seconds.  If that drain continued, or started during the night, your 100% SOC battery will be dead next morning.  Many of us had multiple dead battery events years back but this CSP did seem to fix the problem.  I haven't had any since mine was done.

Edited September 28, 2019 by SnowStorm

[pianewman]

^^^thanks, Snowstorm. I'll phone my dealer Monday AM, see what they can find in my car's records.

[plus 3 golfer]

Dealer just phoned. They are replacing the battery (#4!) since this one failed at 21 months. They promised that everything will be reset.

 

They could find nothing wrong with the electrical system. Hmm...

 

Curiously, our 2017 Fusion Energi (now 30k miles, purchased around 19k miles) just had its battery replaced (under warranty), so now on #2. Even shorter distances than the CMax, as my wife's commute is 7 miles. r/t. I'll keep an eye on the battery.

 

TX heat has been relentless this year, so...

 

Both cars have pigtail leads for quick plugin of BatteryTenderPlus. I will be more diligent about using it, to keep batteries charged. I will leave the emerg lithium jump charger in my son's CMax, since he lives in an apt and has no access to 120v outlet to charge his car.

Yes, use the tender as you likely have a parasitic drain. I believe it was on the TDI or Passat forum, that a bad door switch when then car was off caused a module to remain active. In my examples, I used 50 mA as sleep draw which is the what Ford says is maximum sleep draw. It should be less than that. On your Energi, the 12V Battery is charged when the HVB is plugged in and charging.

 

Heat kills batteries. My first lasted 30 months in the Phoenix heat. I’ve got about 2 1/2 years of Phoenix heat and 2 years of east TN heat on the 2nd one.

https://blog-cdn.rvshare.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Life-map-of-batteries.jpg

Edited September 28, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[raadsel]

We drive short trips most of the time <5 miles.  In 6.5 years never had a dead battery.  I think the problem is some cars the current draw continues after shutdown.

Difficult problem to troubleshoot.

We also listen to the radio after shutdown too.

 

Add me to this list, most of my trips are quite short and, with high speed limits on the roads I drive, short both in length and time, as well as often infrequent. In my case, this is the first time I've had a dead battery in over 4 years-- and I even replaced a battery a year ago because I knew it was ready to start causing power issues. I had the CSP done a couple of years ago. In fact, all my radio issues started when the dealer installed a Sync software update (v3.10, I believe) about a year ago.

Edited September 28, 2019 by raadsel

[pianewman]

Well, nice try. Ford's 15B04 CSP (Customer Satisfaction Program), according to my dealer, is VIN specific, and my CMax doesn't qualify.

 

I assume our 2013 CMax is driven in a pattern that the charging algorithms can't adequately cover, so I'll be plugging it into the BatteryTenderPlus every 3-4 weeks. No major inconvenience, since I've got 2 plug-in cars already...the Fusion Energi and the Leaf.

 

 

Thanks for the lively discussion!  

[SnowStorm]

I think the only real fix to many dead 12V battery problems is Ford's 15B04 CSP (Customer Satisfaction Program).  See if your dealer can determine if it was ever done on your car.  If not, check into having it done.  Ford's reason for the CSP was:

 

In some of the affected vehicles, certain electronic control modules may not time out/power down

correctly when the vehicle is not in use, keeping the onboard module communication network

active. This may cause the 12 volt battery to discharge after being parked overnight or for a short

period of time, resulting in a no start condition.

 

Just opening the car door and closing it again can send battery current to over 11 amps for 10-15 seconds.  If that drain continued, or started during the night, your 100% SOC battery will be dead next morning.  Many of us had multiple dead battery events years back but this CSP did seem to fix the problem.  I haven't had any since mine was done.

Should have kept my mouth shut as we just had another bead battery. :rant2: Car had sat in the garage for about 8 days, being moved from one bay to the other about half way through this time, then its dead - no lights or anything.  Jump starter brought it on immediately.  I didn't have my meter handy so don't know how low it was.  So much for "the fix".  ;) Went for a 40 mile round trip yesterday and it was fine, and OK this morning.  Driver's window was down part way when it went dead so now the bounce-back and auto-close functions are messed up.  Now I have to figure out that fool thing.  I guess we have to go for a drive every day and reconnect my old battery alarm.  Problems with this car are getting older than the car. :sad:

[raadsel]

Curiously, when we removed SYNC/Radio fuses to attempt a reboot, there was no change. The SYNC/Radio still wasn't functioning.

 

I had it happen again this week, where the radio and voice commands quit working. I pulled fuse 79 (the one blue fuse closest to the passenger door, about 3 up from the bottom), started the car until the sound system "failed," then turned the car off and reinserted the fuse. The sound system has been working fine again. This post suggest that if pulling fuse 79 does not work, you need to pull Fuse 22 from the rear junction box.