Everything died on 2013 c-max hybrid. Help with numbers?

[OneMom]

Hello - I have searched but must be using the wrong search string. I bought my 2013 c-max hybrid (not SEL or anything), it had just under 50,000 miles when I purchased in late 2017. About 3 weeks ago I drove to work and when I tried to use the key fob to lock the car, it made a terrible sound, all the lights flickered, and everything went dark. I got back in and inserted the key and there was nothing happening. Ford dealer came and got it and said the hybrid battery (the one in the back?) was dead. They replaced and reset the computer and all has been well. I am puzzled though about the numbers on the dashboard. The two years leading up to this event, the EV numbers on the dashboard never got higher than 38, and now they stay very constant around 118. I have no idea what those numbers mean, but I am wondering if the low numbers were a hint that the battery had been dying all this time (have had several issues with the check engine light). Mostly just seeking to understand what the numbers mean? I am always careful with my braking score so I get 100% (or very close) return most of the time. This is my first hybrid and I love my little-max.

[homestead]

Was probably the 12 volt battery that went bad not the hybrid battery.  It's in the back of the car.  38 sounds more normal for

the MPG reading on the dash.  Constant 118 sounds like something is wrong.  This time of year in cold weather around 40 would doing

good.

 

Welcome!

[OneMom]

MPG is on the left side, not by the image of the battery (trip mode). Prior to the battery replacement, the numbers would range from 9 to 38, with most of the time at mid-20s, now at 118 (next to EV ... what is EV?). Just telling me "sounds like something is wrong" is not helpful. Need more information about what the numbers actually mean on the dash.

 

[homestead]

Download the manual and you can read what the display on the dash shows.

https://justgivemethedamnmanual.com/ford-c-max-owners-manuals/

You can also post a photo of the dash with the car running in park.

Edited December 27, 2019 by homestead

[plus 3 golfer]

EV = Electric Vehicle

PHEV = Plug-in Electric Vehicle

HEV = HYbrid Electric Vehicle

 

The 118 is the miles driven in EV mode. In  EV mode the vehicle is only being propelled by the High Voltage Battery (gas engine is not on).   Compare the 118 to the total miles on the trip meter display as a %.   At high speed driving at 75 + mph, I’ll be less than 15% EV miles.  Driving around town at lower speeds, I will  generally be above 35% EV miles.

[OneMom2001]

Here is the dash. What really puzzles me is why now that the battery was replaced the EV is 118 or more (190 when I took this), but for the two years prior it has never been higher than 38.

Edited December 28, 2019 by OneMom2001
Added the EV number as it is in photo.

[SnowStorm]

So the second line shows you have driven 741.4 miles since you reset Trip 1 and 190.8 miles have been in EV (Electric Vehicle) mode which means the gasoline engine is not running.  Or as we could say, 26% EV mode (190.8/741.1x100%).  After reset, the EV miles should go up at about 1/4 the rate of Trip miles (possibly more).  Now if in the past you never had more than 38 EV miles after many hundreds of Trip miles, that would certainly suggest a fault (possibly the high voltage battery) that prevented the car from running in EV mode.  Now with it fixed, the EV miles should accumulate as described above and your EV miles looks "normal".

Edited December 29, 2019 by SnowStorm
sp.

[plus 3 golfer]

What battery was replaced, the High Voltage battery or the 12 V battery.  The 12 V battery has virtually nothing to do with EV miles.  Do you know whether the dealer reprogrammed any modules (it would be on the SO) or replaced any other parts when you got a new battery?  I can’t think of any scenario where a bad 12 V battery could affect the power train control algorithms to alter gas engine / EV operations without a diagnostic trouble code be thrown.
 

Where are you located and why is your “ready to drive” (ignition on) average speed less than 20 mph for 741 miles. Are you stopped with ignition on?   I note the temp is 33* and your mpg is only 26.7 Mpg on the trip meter.  I believe that is the lowest mpg anyone has ever reported for that many trip miles.  Your % EV is 26% (190/741) which is OK but likely should be higher given your average speed is very low unless the gas engine is running when stopped to keep coolant temperature at a minimum level and cabin warm.
 

What was your total miles on the trip meter when you would see 38?  

Edited December 29, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[OneMom]

Snowstorm - I need to clear the trips and check the mpg. I appreciate you explaining what the EV number represents. 

[OneMom]

Plus 3 Golfer - it was the battery in the back. They also cleared codes. I need to clear my trips. I do a lot of short trips in our little town, and only hit the highway about once a month - less in winter. I am in UP of Michigan - lots of winter here. 

[plus 3 golfer]

The 12 Volt battery and the High Voltage Battery are both in the back.  Look at the Service Order.  Does it say replaced the Hybrid battery or 12 V battery.  Did you have to pay for it?  The Hybrid battery should be no charge as it is warranted for 8 years and 100k miles.  Also, if it was the hybrid battery, it would be the first one that I recall being replaced.  The high voltage battery capacity was likely degrading over time which would result in a decline of EV miles all other things being the same.  Eventually, the capacity would fall to a level where the control algorithms would not allow the car to start. 
 

Yes,  short trips and cold weather kill fuel economy.  

[plus 3 golfer]

Since OneMom’s HVB may have failed, I have attached a chart showing curves of my HVB voltage vs SOC for 4 discharge current ranges.  We know that individual HVB cells degrade with time and that cell balancing is done to the “weakest” cell in groups of cells by bleeding off charge from the stronger cells.  This is done to protect the weaker cell from too low of a voltage which will permanently damage the cell as the battery is being discharged.  
 

So, when looking at the curves, one can imagine what might happen if perhaps some cells degrade at a significantly faster rate than the rest of the cells.  The significantly degraded cells can reduce the capacity of the “good” cells to the extent that the curves shown on the attachment will be significantly lower  even though most of the cells are good.  Of course Ford doesn’t replace individual cells as some owners of other vehicles have done.

 

i have another 18k miles on my C-Max since the curves were generated.  I’m going to record data again, develop new curves and compare the results to see if I can significantly detect battery degradation.

 

[fbov]

4 hours ago, OneMom said:

...They also cleared codes. ...

I'd be curious if they did any recall software updates on the repair order. 

Frank

[dfh]

 

 

Plus 3 Golfer, Please tell us how you obtained the data that you report in your chart.  If you used a recording device attached to the OBO II connector, what was its make and model?  I would like to understand the condition of the HV battery in the 2013 CMAX SEL that I purchased recently.

 

I would also like to understand the algorithm that controls when the CMAX goes in and out ot EV mode.  I am sometime puzzled that I can't coax it into EV mode by lifting my foot from the accelerator, even though the HV battery charge indicator is over 50%, the engine is warm, the road nearly level, the speed below 45, and I'm not accelerating.  (Other times under these conditions, I can.)  Can you enlighten me about the algorithm, or point me to where I can learn about it?

 

Finally,  I wonder if all hybrids use energy from the engine to recharge the propulsion battery to more than 50% shortly after leaving the EV mode because of low battery charge, as my CMAX does.  That limits the amount of braking energy that can be recaptured (and brake pad material saved) if there is a long descent in altitude up ahead.

 

Thanks,

David

[homestead]

One thing to remember in the winter is if the heater is turned on and the engine isn't fully up to temperature the engine will turn on

regardless of the charge on the HV battery.  If you turn the heater temperature down then the car will go into EV sooner or just wait until

the engine fully warms up.

Edited January 6, 2020 by homestead

[plus 3 golfer]

You will need an adapter to connect to the OBDII port and the FORScan App for a Smartphone / tablet or Windows PC.  https://www.obdlink.com/ https://forscan.org/
I have two cheap adapters that work but are slow and sometimes hang up and an Obdiilink MX Bluetooth that’s fast and has never stopped. You lose all data if it stops - not good. 

 

I don’t know the comprehensive algorithm that the torque monitor uses to allocate torque to ICE only, EV only, or combination of EV and ICE.  There are obviously many variables that go into the computation. For example, although the temp gauge may show the engine is up to operating temp, it may not be high enough to keep cabin warm and ICE in closed loop mode (which IIRC is around 140-150 F) if EV is used when ICE is off and ambient temp is low.  Try turning the climate control off and see if backing off pedal switches to EV mode.  
 

There is really not enough storage capacity to “worry” about capturing all down hill energy via regeneration.  The normal HVB SOC%  range is between high thirty to low fifties (say 38 - 54%).  You can use hypermiling techniques to expand this some.  So, the most energy your going to capture going downhill in the HVB is around 32% SOC being the difference between the HVB high limit of around 70% SOC and 38%.  The new capacity rating of the HVB is 1.4 kWh.  So, it doesn’t take much of a downhill to capture less than 0.5 kWh.  
 

One other point the HVB symbol is not showing the actual SOC of the HVB but a low of around 30% SOC if the symbol was zero to a high of 70% SOC when the very tip of the symbol is full.  See attached.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[C-MaxA2]

I live in Michigan (we've had a fairly warm winter so far) and if I want EV I need to almost turn the heat off. I tried it and it would go to EV and avoid the ICE.  Of course, it's COLD in the car and my wife doesn't particularly like it so I only do it when I'm alone in the car.  I've tried the heated seats and that doesn't seem to trigger the engine.  It's the same with AC in the summer.   Avoiding the heater and AC we get around 48 mpg and in the fall and spring when it's easy to do that. 

[fbov]

Welcome!

 

Once upon a time, I commuted to work, and recorded mileage for many trips. There is a strong temperature effect on mileage, so I did my comparisons by looking at trendlines of MPG vs. ambient temperature. Here's one for fuel; ethanol hurts your mileage if you're hypermiling. It's not worth the cost, but some of us like seeing big number and months between fuel stops. At least in Summer.... And there is a downward dip in the otherwise linear trend line if you get cold enough. 

7 hours ago, C-MaxA2 said:

... if I want EV I need to almost turn the heat off. I tried it and it would go to EV and avoid the ICE.  Of course, it's COLD in the car...

Yup. I leave my heat set at 64 and park in the sun in the winter. 

 

I have found EV becomes available sequentially. I get a 1-bar threshold at first, and it will go a while before ICE kicks in if you're careful. A little ICE run later, I get the normal 2-bar threshold and engine temp is up to the mark. (I use My View to show tach and engine coolant temp). 

 

Have fun,

Frank

[dfh]

On 1/6/2020 at 2:08 PM, fbov said:

Welcome!

 

Once upon a time, I commuted to work, and recorded mileage for many trips. There is a strong temperature effect on mileage, so I did my comparisons by looking at trendlines of MPG vs. ambient temperature. Here's one for fuel; ethanol hurts your mileage if you're hypermiling. It's not worth the cost, but some of us like seeing big number and months between fuel stops. At least in Summer.... And there is a downward dip in the otherwise linear trend line if you get cold enough. 

Yup. I leave my heat set at 64 and park in the sun in the winter. 

 

I have found EV becomes available sequentially. I get a 1-bar threshold at first, and it will go a while before ICE kicks in if you're careful. A little ICE run later, I get the normal 2-bar threshold and engine temp is up to the mark. (I use My View to show tach and engine coolant temp). 

 

Have fun,

Frank

Frank, would you please clarify the difference between the two data sets in your graph?  If it's 0% ethanol and 15% ethanol in the gasoline, the difference is understandable because gasoline releases more energy per unit volume than does ethanol when burned.

 

Did your work commute include much change in altitude, many stop signs and traffic lights, or driving over 60 mph?

 

Are the mileage values as calculated by the vehicle's computer, or are they as calculated by you based on the miles driven and the fuel consumed (odometer and gasoline dispenser values).  Somehow, on the various cars I've checked, I usually find that the vehicle-calculated value of mileage exceeds the mileage I calculate the old fashioned way, perhaps a truth-in-advertising type issue. 

 

Finally, do you have data for the summertime that you could share?  Here in southern California flatland even in the winter our temperature range is typically no lower than 50 F and can be over 70 F.

 

Thanks, David

[fbov]

I guess you might find it if you looked... 

Here's my route altitude profile, about 30' difference in altitude. 

 

Years ago, I posted answers to a lot of your questions. It's a rural route, 30 MPH avg. speed over 15.5 miles with a 45 top speed limit with about a dozen stop signs and half that many stop lights. All data from the dash. Here's some Summer data showing 15% ethanol vs. no ethanol effect, and an accidental reduction in tire pressure. This one is a timeline, with a temperature as a trendline. It shows little variation. 

 

There's a lot more in my database, but the neat stuff comes from the diagnostic port. Several forum posters have used small port modules that transmit data to a smart phone app. This gets you into engineering data... real-time readouts from all the sensors and settings. I'm no expert, perhaps someone else will chime in.

 

HAve fun,

Frank

Edited January 8, 2020 by fbov