How widespread is the eCVT failure?

[fbov]

9 hours ago, Roger Eastman said:

... One would presume  ( and hope !  ) that Ford put all their combined knowledge and experience into the   new model, and come up with a really "bulletproof" all - around result.

That's what many folks thought about the HF35, but while it was the 3rd generation transaxel, it was a 1st generation Ford design. The HF45 in the Escape is the 2nd gen Ford design where we hope that might be true. It's certainly a different implementation; lots more metal next to the ICE. I suspect they integrated the inverter and controls. 

 

If you want details, I recommend the Weber State videos. This links to all their Ford entries, so looks for the eCVTs. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIn3FrDiB1lwAhpYXTHmgEJLHwEDPYv2d

 

Have fun,

Frank

[milkman44]

New here, but thought I'd jump in. I bought  a '14 C-Max Energi with 99,000 miles at the end of August '17, paid less than $9500 for it and have put almost 40,000 miles on it without a glitch. I had a '10 Prius and sold it with 196,000 miles on it. I was afraid I'd take a mpg hit when I went with the C-Max, but that hasn't been the case. 

I read somewhere that the '13 C-max was the one with tranny problems, something about the oil cooler pump only ran when the engine was on and that was changed in the '14. All that might be internet rumor though. I posted this on another site to update a thread there. 

 

I thought I'd kick this old thread and update. About three months ago, I sold the Prius to a neighbor and he's loving it. I took the C-Max on a 1500 mile trip to the east coast and averaged 41.3 mpg for the trip. Since that trip, I've put 11,000 more miles on the c and showing 51.2 mpg for that distance. I'm really liking the Ford, except the routine maintenance is a pain compared to the Prius. To replace the engine air filter, the whole engine cover has to be pulled out to get to the filter cover. Oil changes require removing the whole under engine cover and the cabin air filter replacement is a nightmare, really tight place to get to and have to collapse the filter to squeeze it into place. I haven't had to replace it yet, but the 12V battery is located in the right rear under the floor like the Prius, but a lot of stuff needs to be disassembled to get to it. I replaced the tires with Kumhos and learned a lesson, next tires will be Continentals, I'm still liking the C-Max and it now has 131,000 miles and uses NO oil. Another thing, I really miss the flat cargo floor in the Prius.

[Lacienega]

Totally agree with you about the maintenance issues. Did already twice oil, air filter and cabin filter changes...with the cabin being the worst. Another fun thing is to chance the front blinker bulbs, you have to take out the entire headlight unit and that was a pain in the back. Both my front blinker bulbs melted the contact wires through the plastic socket and needed to be replaced (not at the same time though). I believe they got too hot when I had the emergency lights on due to a flat tire and waiting for the tow truck. Another problem are my lug nuts, they are swollen and I can't get any socket to fit on it.? This car is designed to bring it in for service ?

[fbov]

14 hours ago, milkman44 said:

14 C-Max Energi ... the '13 C-max was the one with tranny problems,

The Hybrid is the one with the tranny problems, suspect through August, 2015. 

 

In the DOE testing that had 3 of 4 Hybrids with failed transmissions, 0 of 4 Energi's experienced transmission failure, albeit with one car at 30K, vs. 150k, 151K and 160K for the others (all 4 Hybrids made 160K). 

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[milkman44]

14 hours ago, Lacienega said:

Totally agree with you about the maintenance issues. Did already twice oil, air filter and cabin filter changes...with the cabin being the worst. Another fun thing is to chance the front blinker bulbs, you have to take out the entire headlight unit and that was a pain in the back. Both my front blinker bulbs melted the contact wires through the plastic socket and needed to be replaced (not at the same time though). I believe they got too hot when I had the emergency lights on due to a flat tire and waiting for the tow truck. Another problem are my lug nuts, they are swollen and I can't get any socket to fit on it.? This car is designed to bring it in for service ?

 

I forgot about the turn signal bulb being a pain, my left front turn went out and had to remove the headlight assembly. Two screws and bolt out of the fender to get it to move enough to get the headlight assembly out, then two little screws way down in the housing to remove. My nuts swelled up too ? and I had to change them, Discount Tire wanted to change them, but I thought they were too expensive so I ordered a set off EBay.

[bigqueue]

On 1/31/2020 at 2:11 PM, milkman44 said:

 

I forgot about the turn signal bulb being a pain, my left front turn went out and had to remove the headlight assembly. Two screws and bolt out of the fender to get it to move enough to get the headlight assembly out, then two little screws way down in the housing to remove. My nuts swelled up too ? and I had to change them, Discount Tire wanted to change them, but I thought they were too expensive so I ordered a set off EBay.

 The way I read this initially, I thought you had a physical reaction to changing the bulbs....the i saw you went to discount tire rather than the doctor and it came clear to me. ?

 

 

[bigqueue]

On 1/14/2020 at 2:53 PM, fbov said:

My understanding is that Ford used a bad batch of bearings, which fail by allowing the main shaft to shift laterally, causing severe gear wear and eventually wearing through the case. The bearing was too deep to replace economically. Ford took a software approach to minimize load on start-up. My car is 100% EV when started cold; no ICE torque for the first 20 seconds. I assume that's to allow oil pressure to build and fully lube the bearing before applying ICE torque. 

 

As to probability of failure... Once upon a time, Idaho National Laboratories was testing electric vehicles to 160K miles. 2013 model year C-Max Hybrid and Energi were among the 30 vehicles tested. 

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/all-powertrain-architecture

- 3 of 4 Hybrids replaced transmission at  90K, 110K, 116K. The fourth made 170K before end of test. It was one of two cars with consecutive VINs, implying that "good" trannys were being made alongside "bad" ones.  VINs range from 528xxx to 535xxx, implying a lot of suspect production. 

- 0 of 4 Energis replaced transmissions. 1 was removed at 30K, the other three made 150-160K without tranny failure. Energi has an extra circulation pump to make up for long stretches of ICE off. 

 

This is a small sample, but it's large enough to say that transmissions are a high failure rate item, >>10% in some 2013 Ford C-Max Hybrid production. With a 10/2012 build date, and a 506xxx VIN, I can understand why my trade-in value dropped 25% in 18 months. It reflects my lack of faith. 

 

Have fun,

Frank, who is thankful to have options. 

The one of the four that did not fail looked like it had done slightly less highway miles than the others....but that is tough to say....they look so close.

 

5138 (No Failure):

 

5139: Transmission Replacement (next VIN to non-repair)

8698: Had Transmission Replaced

 

2158: Had transmission replaced

 

Edited February 2, 2020 by bigqueue

[rowekmr]

Good Info here!

[philie]

is there by any chance videos of the sounds a failing transmission makes?

we did get a 2013 being aware that it has the problem but not to scared as we are still well covered by warranty but it would be great to know what to look (hear) for as we are still not very familiar with the car.

thanks a lot!

[bigqueue]

6 hours ago, philie said:

is there by any chance videos of the sounds a failing transmission makes?

we did get a 2013 being aware that it has the problem but not to scared as we are still well covered by warranty but it would be great to know what to look (hear) for as we are still not very familiar with the car.

thanks a lot!

 

I think these might be videos of the issue.....though I think these are pretty far along in their death throws:

 

 

 

I've not had the problem...and I hope my 2016 never does.....so maybe some of those here who did can weigh in on how these videos compare to what they experienced.

 

 

[plus 3 golfer]

4 hours ago, bigqueue said:

 

I think these might be videos of the issue.....though I think these are pretty far along in their death throws:

 

 

 

I've not had the problem...and I hope my 2016 never does.....so maybe some of those here who did can weigh in on how these videos compare to what they experienced.

 

 

No, no no.  The transfer shaft must be spinning.? I believe ptjones described the noise he heard before his transmission was replaced.

[philie]

our car does a slight "turbine" noise every time we accelerate. hence the question.

it sounds hybridy though so we are not sure if its a problem.

[SnowStorm]

4 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

No, no no.  The transfer shaft must be spinning.

Correct.  The transfer shaft is geared directly to the differential so if the car is not moving, then the differential and transfer shaft both are not spinning.  I don't see how either video applies since the car appears stationary both times.

 

17 minutes ago, philie said:

our car does a slight "turbine" noise every time we accelerate. hence the question.

it sounds hybridy though so we are not sure if its a problem.

At what speeds, and are you still in EV mode?  The sound I had was primarily noticeable around 30 to 40 mph in EV mode.  There was a slight whine or whir that came and went depending on direction of torque (whether I was pressing on accelerator or not) - but all the while staying in EV mode.  Once ICE started I couldn't really tell if the noise continued or not.  My noise was never very loud - I've had tires make more noise!  I don't recall ever having a "thumping" or "grinding" sound.  In my instance all the teeth corners were sheared off of one of the gears so maybe they have to still be there to get a grinding sound.

[philie]

2 hours ago, SnowStorm said:

Correct.  The transfer shaft is geared directly to the differential so if the car is not moving, then the differential and transfer shaft both are not spinning.  I don't see how either video applies since the car appears stationary both times.

 

At what speeds, and are you still in EV mode?  The sound I had was primarily noticeable around 30 to 40 mph in EV mode.  There was a slight whine or whir that came and went depending on direction of torque (whether I was pressing on accelerator or not) - but all the while staying in EV mode.  Once ICE started I couldn't really tell if the noise continued or not.  My noise was never very loud - I've had tires make more noise!  I don't recall ever having a "thumping" or "grinding" sound.  In my instance all the teeth corners were sheared off of one of the gears so maybe they have to still be there to get a grinding sound.

Honestly, this is 100% what mine sounds like.

Not very loud but clearly noticeable whining in EV mode, mostly at around 20-40mpg ( at least this is what I hear).

My initial thoughts were that the sound is related to the EV-powertrain ( never had a hybrid before except a 4-week Prius rental that did not make a sound like that).

Should I be worried?

[plus 3 golfer]

37 minutes ago, philie said:

Honestly, this is 100% what mine sounds like.

Not very loud but clearly noticeable whining in EV mode, mostly at around 20-40mpg ( at least this is what I hear).

My initial thoughts were that the sound is related to the EV-powertrain ( never had a hybrid before except a 4-week Prius rental that did not make a sound like that).

Should I be worried?

IMO, since you hear the sound, I would get a UOA kit from Blackstone Labs and send the sample to them for analysis.   If you catch the problem before the shaft bores a hole in the transmission case, you can get a transfer shaft kit instead of a used transmission savings maybe $1500 or so. https://www.fordpartsgiant.com/parts/ford-gear-and-shaft-asy_fg9z-7h348-d.html

[philie]

 

2 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

IMO, since you hear the sound, I would get a UOA kit from Blackstone Labs and send the sample to them for analysis.   If you catch the problem before the shaft bores a hole in the transmission case, you can get a transfer shaft kit instead of a used transmission savings maybe $1500 or so. https://www.fordpartsgiant.com/parts/ford-gear-and-shaft-asy_fg9z-7h348-d.html

 my transmission should still be under warranty.

i have the 10 year 150000 mile CARB state luck. 

so maybe bring it to a ford dealer instead ?

[plus 3 golfer]

1 hour ago, philie said:

 

 my transmission should still be under warranty.

i have the 10 year 150000 mile CARB state luck. 

so maybe bring it to a ford dealer instead ?

Are you sure? There have been questions on this before. My 2013 shows it has a ULEV 2 certification (sticker under hood).  I believe the Energi is a PZEV which means it would meet the requirements below.  Check your sticker.
 

  From the 2013 C-Max Warranty Guide:

 

“Vehicles Eligible for California Advanced Technology (AT) Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV) Emission Warranty Coverage
California Advanced Technology (AT) Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV) extended emission warranty coverage applies if your vehicle meets the following two requirements:
• Your vehicle is registered in a state** that has adopted and is enforcing California AT PZEV emissions warranty regulations applicable to your vehicle at the time of repair, and
• Your vehicle is certified as an AT PZEV in California as indicated on the vehicle emission control information label.”

 

 

[philie]

2 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

Are you sure? There have been questions on this before. My 2013 shows it has a ULEV 2 certification (sticker under hood).  I believe the Energi is a PZEV which means it would meet the requirements below.  Check your sticker.
 

  From the 2013 C-Max Warranty Guide:

 

“Vehicles Eligible for California Advanced Technology (AT) Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV) Emission Warranty Coverage
California Advanced Technology (AT) Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV) extended emission warranty coverage applies if your vehicle meets the following two requirements:
• Your vehicle is registered in a state** that has adopted and is enforcing California AT PZEV emissions warranty regulations applicable to your vehicle at the time of repair, and
• Your vehicle is certified as an AT PZEV in California as indicated on the vehicle emission control information label.”

 

 

I am literally dying right now.

i thought I did my research and was sure that I have done so. Here in the forum was a thread that I read very thoroughly that provided the information regarding carb states extended warranty on electric parts. I need to find this now and understand the warranty of this car as it is still younger than 7 years and has 74000 miles on the clock. A transmission failure would be a financial nightmare for me.

i will have to check this now. If there is anything leading me in the direction of help or resources this is appreciated!

 

[philie]

2 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

Are you sure? There have been questions on this before. My 2013 shows it has a ULEV 2 certification (sticker under hood).  I believe the Energi is a PZEV which means it would meet the requirements below.  Check your sticker.
 

  From the 2013 C-Max Warranty Guide:

 

“Vehicles Eligible for California Advanced Technology (AT) Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV) Emission Warranty Coverage
California Advanced Technology (AT) Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV) extended emission warranty coverage applies if your vehicle meets the following two requirements:
• Your vehicle is registered in a state** that has adopted and is enforcing California AT PZEV emissions warranty regulations applicable to your vehicle at the time of repair, and
• Your vehicle is certified as an AT PZEV in California as indicated on the vehicle emission control information label.”

 

 

Can you confirm that he warranty of the ecvt is good for 8 years and  100000 miles?

than I would still be under warranty. That would be a huge relief. I am now reading through the warranty guide again. 
sorry for hijacking this thread!

[plus 3 golfer]

30 minutes ago, philie said:

Can you confirm that he warranty of the ecvt is good for 8 years and  100000 miles?

than I would still be under warranty. That would be a huge relief. I am now reading through the warranty guide again. 
sorry for hijacking this thread!

Yes.  The only question would be if all that was needed was the transfer shaft assembly, would Ford consider that as part of the Unique Hybrid Warranty.  I don’t recall reading anywhere that one had a transfer shaft assembly replaced.  Early on the transmission failures (before the TSB on the bearing issue).  Ford replaced the entire unit.  With issuance of 14b07 and TSB dealer must open up transmission and inspect for damper side case damage and if no damage replace the transfer shaft only. 14b07 covered transmission and transfer shaft until it expired in 2016.  With subsequent TSB, it’s not clear if transfer shaft is covered under the Unique Hybrid warranty.

 

Can you record the noise and post so others that have had the issue can give their opinions?  I still think a UOA would be useful as a high elevation in metals would likely indicate a problem.  Blackstone charges $28 for it. If metals are normal, you likely do not have the transfer shaft bearing issue.  If you do record noise or do a UOA, consider starting a new thread on your transmission.

 

Here’s a thread describing a whining noise first prior to the thumping grinding noises.

 

[bigqueue]

9 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

IMO, since you hear the sound, I would get a UOA kit from Blackstone Labs and send the sample to them for analysis.   If you catch the problem before the shaft bores a hole in the transmission case, you can get a transfer shaft kit instead of a used transmission savings maybe $1500 or so. https://www.fordpartsgiant.com/parts/ford-gear-and-shaft-asy_fg9z-7h348-d.html

 

I assume you are suggesting the transmission fluid get tested, not engine oil.....right? Or does the engine oil somehow get the contamination of the worn transmission bearings?

 

 

[plus 3 golfer]

Correct transmission fluid.  

[plus 3 golfer]

10 hours ago, philie said:

I am literally dying right now.

i thought I did my research and was sure that I have done so. Here in the forum was a thread that I read very thoroughly that provided the information regarding carb states extended warranty on electric parts. I need to find this now and understand the warranty of this car as it is still younger than 7 years and has 74000 miles on the clock. A transmission failure would be a financial nightmare for me.

i will have to check this now. If there is anything leading me in the direction of help or resources this is appreciated!

 

I believe many have been assuming that CARB states were different.  Here’s what WIKI says about levels of emissions certification.  
 

 

Fuel cell vehicle

“California defines a ULEV as a vehicle that has been verified by the California Air Resources Board (CARB), United States to emit 50% less polluting emissions than the average for new cars released in that model year. Under LEV II regulations, the Tier I and TLEV classifications were removed for 2004. The ULEV is one of a number of designations given by the CARB to signify the level of emissions that car-buyers can expect their new vehicle to produce and forms part of a whole range of designations, listed here in order of decreasing emissions:

TLEV (transitional low-emission vehicle)

The least stringent emissions standard in California. California phased-out TLEVs in 2004.

LEV (low-emission vehicle)

The minimum standard for all new cars sold in California as of 2004.

ULEV (ultra-low-emission vehicle)

SULEV (super-ultra-low-emission vehicle)

SULEV emissions are 90% cleaner than the average new model year car.

PZEV (partial-zero-emission vehicle)

A PZEV meets SULEV tailpipe emission standards, but has no evaporative emissions (i.e., no unburned fuel leaves the fuel system). A PZEV has a 15-year / 150,000-mile warranty on its emission control components.

AT PZEV (advanced technology partial-zero-emission vehicle)

An AT PZEV meets the PZEV requirements, but also meets some of the necessary conditions of a ZEV. AT PZEVs include dedicated compressed natural gas vehicles and hybrid vehicles with engine emissions that meet PZEV standards.

ZEV (zero-emissions vehicle)

A ZEV has no tailpipe emissions. These include  battery electric vehicles and hydrogen vehicles (fuel cell vehicles).”

[plus 3 golfer]

Now based on the definitions of emissions certification classes in my preceding post, a hybrid like our CMax (not a PHEV) would have to be classified as an SULEV and have no evaporative emissions (which I believe our hybrid qualifies for) to be classified as a PZEV.  Since we have an internal combustion engine which uses gas to charge the HVB, it will be difficult for a hybrid to be 90% cleaner than the average new car.  A PHEV with sufficient range when being tested under the EPA emissions dynamometer tests, would likely meet the 90% target.  The results of these tests are available for download by year.  I use data from these files when comparing fuel economy and Road Load Horse Power among vehicles.

 

Here are links on the emissions standards for California and a link to the EPA data (both emissions and fuel economy).  I have also noted in research that some Hybrids can achieve the SULEV standard.

https://dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_ca.php

https://www.epa.gov/compliance-and-fuel-economy-data

 

I have attached below a snip of filtered results for the C-Max emissions test data.  You can see that the Energi is certified to a lower emissions level than the Hybrid.   I believe the bottom line is unless the Certification Sticker under the hood shows the vehicle is a PZEV, one will not get the benefit of the CARB emissions warranty.

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Avian]

On 1/14/2020 at 2:52 PM, ptjones said:

What are you talking about? My 2013 CMAX has 246K miles on it, How many miles do you think you are going to get out of a Prius V?

 

Paul

500k miles PAUL I'm on my 2nd transmission (new from Ford) going for 3rd. I like the car hence why I left the prius but in longevity handling prius is king. Faster less mph good looks silent car cloud ride is the Fusion. No brand gets even close to Toyota. What u been smoking