Expected life of HVB and cost to replace

[Roger Eastman]

I have searched and can't find a simple answer, so excuse me if I have missed something.

 

What is the expected life of the C-Max Hybrid HVB, and what is the replacement cost ?

[jestevens]

I haven't seen or heard of too many C-MAX pack failures yet.  Some 2nd Generation Prius (2005-2009) owners  are experiencing pack failures now with 15 year old NiMH packs and more than 200K mi on their cars.  One person got rid of a 2006 Prius with 250K mi not because of the battery, but because the catalytic converter replacement would have cost $3K.  A pack replacement would probably be comparable to the cost of a transmission -- $2-5K depending on whether you buy a new pack or get one rebuilt.

 

C-MAX uses Lithium ion battery pack so it may not be directly comparable but I am more worried about transmission failure than HVB battery failure in my C-MAX.

[fbov]

Time to post Ford's "Key Life Test" comparing NiMH and Li-ion battery life in miles. Based on this data, I see no reason to expect Li-ion to fail within the service life of the vehicle.  

Frank

 

[pureenergi]

35 minutes ago, fbov said:

Time to post Ford's "Key Life Test" comparing NiMH and Li-ion battery life in miles. Based on this data, I see no reason to expect Li-ion to fail within the service life of the vehicle.  

Frank

 

What car is this based on, though?  Hybrid C-Max or PHEV C-Max Energi?

If you have a 300 mile EV, it's going to be charged roughly 1,000 times to reach 300k miles, under ideal conditions where the owner charges it up fully only when absolutely needed.  As we all know, the number of full charges, along with how much cold and hot weather (especially hot, with the air cooling on the Energi battery) are the biggest thing that impact battery capacity.

The C-Max Energi often has its battery fully charged daily, and rack up 15,000 potential charges to reach 300k miles.  Of course, it's not often people charge it up twice in one day, so that would take 41 years, but I've certainly charged it fully twice in one day, sometimes 3 times.

Edited September 12, 2020 by pureenergi

[plus 3 golfer]

The C-Max Hybrid Battery. ?  The same cell chemistry is used in the Energi HVB.   But obviously, some HVBs will have shorter life and others longer life depending on how the HBV is used significantly more so in the Energi than the Hybrid.  Typically end of life of a HVB is defined to be when the capacity “fades” to a % of it’s new capacity irrespective of cause.  

On of the reason I didn’t by an Energi in 2012, was the potential issue of significant capacity fade in the Energy ( which directly affects usable EV only miles).  Capacity fade in the leaf was well documented in late 2012.  Given the strategies one would have do to mitigate capacity fade in the Energi diminished its plug-in value. Unfortunately, Ford did not warrant capacity fade and did not inform consumers of the potential for capacity fade if the Energi is fully charged twice a day in hot weather.

 

Here’s a graph I put together some time ago for 8 Energis tested by Idaho National Labs.  I believe all were used in Phoenix for courier service. It’s clear the shape of capacity fade for the Energi shows increasing fade with mileage likely due to cycling to full charge in hot whether.

 

 

 

https://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/20/ford-key-life-test-advanced-plug-in-vehicle-batteries/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEEAM7Me4c28-r5oiIVezpV4s9obAXWN35BRdGySHrHEJr3g2dynee5_H-DWF9YAs4q579PLsWMiPDMpMeRrqtMZxgy0rfhk8WW64kjXF92hTwaMNQC0Ca21zwXnYJ4yGOkjtMEzn7ooem0DOnRJVCGSOKQ8UGrRO02ERshmD6sM

[pureenergi]

3 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

The C-Max Hybrid Battery. ?  The same cell chemistry is used in the Energi HVB.   But obviously, some HVBs will have shorter life and others longer life depending on how the HBV is used significantly more so in the Energi than the Hybrid.  Typically end of life of a HVB is defined to be when the capacity “fades” to a % of it’s new capacity irrespective of cause.  

 

I realized as much soon after I posted that.  Excuse us Energi forum refugees as we mistakenly blunder into your conversations. ??  I know that using an Energi in Phoenix is asking for trouble - I'm in the CA Bay Area, so we usually don't see extreme temps.  Any study from the Phoenix area is useful for worst case scenarios but can generally be considered to be an outlier, unless you live in Death Valley or part of the Middle East, then it can be considered a best case scenario!  However, I'm looking at 3.3kw from full until depleted on a battery that was originally 7.6kw.  There's a story on this forum of someone who got their Energi HVB replaced after thorough documentation of the battery degradation under the 8 year, 100k PHEV drivetrain warranty.  One day before my 8 years, 100k is up (I'm at 80k) I hope to have the same experience.  I have 50k miles on the HVB so I'd love to have them honor this warranty and get another 50k or more EV only out of the second battery.

[plus 3 golfer]

11 hours ago, pureenergi said:

 

I realized as much soon after I posted that.  Excuse us Energi forum refugees as we mistakenly blunder into your conversations. ??  I know that using an Energi in Phoenix is asking for trouble - I'm in the CA Bay Area, so we usually don't see extreme temps.  Any study from the Phoenix area is useful for worst case scenarios but can generally be considered to be an outlier, unless you live in Death Valley or part of the Middle East, then it can be considered a best case scenario!  However, I'm looking at 3.3kw from full until depleted on a battery that was originally 7.6kw.  There's a story on this forum of someone who got their Energi HVB replaced after thorough documentation of the battery degradation under the 8 year, 100k PHEV drivetrain warranty.  One day before my 8 years, 100k is up (I'm at 80k) I hope to have the same experience.  I have 50k miles on the HVB so I'd love to have them honor this warranty and get another 50k or more EV only out of the second battery.

First, it’s 7.6 kWh of capacity.  kW is power. kWh is energy.

 

Second, here’s the details of the one HVB which I’ve ever seen replaced by Ford for supposedly non-manufacturing defect. Note the BOLD text I highlighted.   One post,  no details were provided as to why Ford covered it and failure may have been due to a manufacturing defect. It sounds like a power issue (kW not an energy issue kWh).  There have many owners of Energis where Ford denied coverage under the Unique Hybrid Components warranty for capacity “fade”.  

“Aloha from Kauai!

 

“Thank you Ford for replacing my HVB today!!! Love having my range back! Here's my journey: My 2014 energi Started having fairly significant capacity loss yr one that continued until last yr when I was at about 50% loss. Maybe i could squeeze in about 4 Kwh and it would use maybe 3.4 Kwh/ish. While Ford pushed back on the capacity loss, (I still think they should honor the 30% or more loss in 10 yrs or less industry standard) they did listen and act on the performance issue is was causing.  It would not stay in EV only mode and when accelerating it would only utilize about 1-bar of EV power causing almost a super short stall or mini jarring lag in what is normally smooth and strong acceleration. BTW they did change out the battery module first to rule that out as an Issue. I hope this helps a lot of owners. If your really stuck don't forget to reach out to some the community colleges that are rebuilding EV batteries for cheap or some work around.  Onward 

steve parsons Kauai”

 

https://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/7997-cmax-energi-hvb-battery-replaced-under-warranty/

 

 

 

[pureenergi]

Yes, of course, kWh, I thank the internet for correcting me on every typo and every shorthand I have ever used.  I don't know if it was the Aloha spirit that led to that owner getting their battery replaced or the 1 bar/stall/lag issue, but there's one.  It's possible that user is the same as the ones I see on Reddit, but there's at least 1 more if it's not them, and a story about a service manager talking about the threshold for replacement.  If I'm at 3.3 kWh out of the original 7.6, that's 43.4% - below 50%, in a temperate climate that never sees freezing weather and maybe gets 100 degree weather once every 2 years.  I think there's a reasonable case to be made for replacement, but I guess we'll see.  As a little background, I'm one of the more loyal Ford guys you'll ever meet, and service and loyalty make a big difference to me.  First car was a 1970 Mustang convertible, 2nd car was a 1992 Ford Escort, then I didn't have a car for a while, had a Scion, then came back to Ford for the Energi, first one was totaled in an accident with my GF driving (it did a great job protecting her!) and this is the 2nd Energi I've had.  Also owned a '68 Mustang coupe.  I'm considering the Mach-E or F-150 electric as my next car, so I clearly lean Ford.  Reddit posts below:

 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by pureenergi

[plus 3 golfer]

Here’s the issue with the  40k miles posts,  the power train warranty applies. There is no indication what the issue causing the problem other than HVB not holding a charge (doesn’t sound like capacity fade).  After 5 yrs / 60k miles the emissions warranty in CARB states apply and the Unique Hybrid Components applies in all states. I have yet to see where this issue was documented as capacity fade and covered by the unique components hybrid warranty. In all cases I have read about capacity fade, capacity fade was not warranted under the Unique Hybrid Components warranty. I don’t trust SA’s statements as applying to all the various warranties which cover the HVB.  
 

I understand about self correction typing but many mix up energy and power and it is a critical distinction in the Aloha post.  Much like a lead acid battery not starting ICE in very cold weather yet having a higher SOC, a lithium ion battery may have a higher SOC (sufficient energy capacity), but not enough power to meet high demand requirement for whatever reason.  Here’s a chart showing how under large power demands (high current) HVB voltage falls considerably.  The algorithms will limit the power output of HVB,  if HVB cannot sustain demand requirements and use ICE.  
 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Roger Eastman]

I posted information similar to this on the transmission thread a while back. I recall Ford purchasing back as many NYC Escape Hybrids as they could when they reached 200,000 miles and tore them apart to see how they had done, and they could not find much wrong with any of them. Of course, those vehicles had a different battery pack, etc. The C-Max Hybrids should be much improved over those original Escape Hybrids as far as durability goes, I would think.

 

The reason that I started this thread is  that I am trying to make a decision as what to expect as far as troubles that might be expected ( and costly ) in continuing to drive my 2014,  90,000 mile C-Max for another year or two. ( or even more ).

 

I appreciate  all replies and comments.

[plus 3 golfer]

16 hours ago, Roger Eastman said:

 

...

The reason that I started this thread is  that I am trying to make a decision as what to expect as far as troubles that might be expected ( and costly ) in continuing to drive my 2014,  90,000 mile C-Max for another year or two. ( or even more ).

 

I appreciate  all replies and comments.

I didn’t mention this in this thread but the large yellow dots indicating INL data represent the points on the discharge curve which Is the standard used to determine capacity loss.  The standard test is to discharge the HVB at a C rate = 1 in a one hour time rate to the minimum cell operating voltage.  The Ah rating of a new 1.4 kWh HVB is 5 Ah which would be a 5 A discharge rate. Since we as owners can’t easily discharge the HVB at 5A, I plotted the data in Amp ranges.  The 0-10 A range encompasses the 5 A standard discharge rate for our HVB.

 

My data appears to match the INL data points at the same miles on the battery.  The capacity fade or capacity loss of the INL test vehicles at around 105k miles averaged 6.5%.  I assume that my HVB has also lost around 6.5% based on my data.  Below are 2 graphs showing this: average of 4 test vehicles and individual points of the 4 vehicles.
 

I notice no difference in performance especially FE from new even now at 130k miles.  The only difference I can document is that I have now seen SOC as low as 28%.  When new, I ran several tests to see how low SOC might go in normal use.  The lowest I could achieve when new was around 32%. I also believe the upper end of SOC has increased slightly but I never documented it (maybe from around 70% to 72%).   I believe the algorithms expand the normal operating range (SOC range) as the capacity fades such that as the discharge curves fall, the available energy available for normal operations remains constant.  Remember actual SOC is always measured from capacity when new.  In other words, if the usable energy range when new was 0.64 kWh or 40% of 100% SOC , a 6% capacity loss would require the SOC usable range to expand to about 46% to keep the usable range of 0.64 kWh the same as when new. 

 

Bottom line is that I believe the Hybrid HVB will last several 100k miles before one might see a loss in performance (especially FE) as the operating voltage falls to close to knee of the voltage vs capacity curve.

.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Apon Kheyal]

Hello All,

 

Bought a Ford CMAX 2015 and I am getting only 14 miles when driving conservatively on local road. MyFordMobile app shows 4 KWH power used to drive those EV miles. Am I reading this accurately? If so, does this mean that the car battery is left with 4 KWH capacity against 5.5 KWH capacity (for EV miles only) and I should report it to Ford dealer?

 

I live in South Florida, just learning these "water cooling", "air cooling", "battery degradation in high temperature", "not charging the battery during high temperature" etc after I bought the car and those concerns making me worried. ?

 

I am  not sure whether taking it to dealer is a worthwhile effort since Ford is very vague about battery warranty. 

Questions I am trying to get answers on:

1. Should I just use this as a Hybrid vehicle and do not worry about charging it in Florida environment?

2. Should I just take it to dealer and tell him that there is significant loss in capacity?

3. Is there any guideline released from Ford on expected performance from the battery with age and miles driven?

 

Any suggestion, insights, help would be much appreciated.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Apon Kheyal

[Billyk24]

Florida is warm for many months of the year.  An Energi sitting in the parking lot during a hot day will heat up its HVB temperature just sitting there.   The vehicle does not have the ability to quickly cool it'ss HVB.   Charging on the 240V system can and will heat up the HVB.   Charging to full and letting the vehicle sit at 100% is not good.   Full charge to empty on the HVB is hard on the battery cells.  It is better to keep the SOC between 20-70% but on very hot days, less charge than than.   You will not receive a new HVB from the dealer unless there is something outside the battery cells that caused the degradation.  Your best bet is to monitor the HVB temperature, amps, state of charge, and use the engine  as much as possible when needed.  This is not an EV and should not be driven as if it is a Tesla until the HVB is empty. 

 

[plus 3 golfer]

Billyk24 is “spot on”.  Unfortunately, it’s virtually too late to limit to 70% SOC when charging especially in hot weather as you’ve already lost about 1.5 kWh of capacity (5.5 - 4.0) or about 20% from the 7.6 kWh capacity when new.  So, in order to mitigate further capacity loss at a high rate you would want to limit charging to 56% SOC  (1-20%)* 70% which equates to a usable range drop from 4 kWh to about 2.2 kWh.  Plus you would still have to do all the other things especially those related to temperature.   
 

if I owned it, I would not charge at all in the hot weather months and simply use the Energi as a Hybrid.  In the cooler months, you can likely charge  close to your current level (maybe limit it to 95% of 80% SOC  or around 75% SOC.  You might want to invest in the FORScan App so you can monitor data.  https://forscan.org/home.html

 

[Apon Kheyal]

Great, thank you for spending your time and sharing your knowledge with noob like me. @Billyk24and @Plus 3 Golfer

 

I have few questions/clarification to make. the reason I started researching on this topic because when I bought the car a month ago, it was showing 17 miles on the EV meter. I never paid much attention on KWH and other stuff till I saw a drop to 15 EV miles and I got alarmed. The way I am using the car is to charge it during the middle of the night using 110V power outlet, and use it in the early morning. When I reach work, which is 16 miles away, EV miles shows 0 miles. I leave the car on the parking lot which is not shaded and commute back on hybrid mode. 100% of my commute is in the City with max speed of 50 MPH.

 

1. If my understanding is correct, Energi battery will always keep some charge to operate as a hybrid vehicle even if EV meter is at Zero. So even if I drive all the EV miles, I am not depleting the HVB fully, and therefore it is ok to use up all the available EV miles before the recharge, is that correct? 

2. As I described about my charging pattern, is it ok to charge it all year around up to 2.2 KWH ? or Should I stop charging at all during summer months? What is the temperature cutoff I should look at to make such a decision?

3. The car did not come with original charger, rather it came with a Nissan Leaf charger. Do you think that charger has something to do with the fall of of capacity level?

4. Is it possible to ask dealer to re-balance the battery pack and hope that it would bring back some of the lost capacity? I know I cannot expect a "new battery" performance from a 5 year old car. I am just trying to see if I can get little better performance which will meet my needs.

 

Again, I know this forum is for CMAX Hybrid forum and therefore thank you for all the suggestions and feedback on Energi model. To be frank, I did not even understood the difference between Energi and Hybrid when I purchased it. I will look into forscan app suggested. I wish I did little more research and found you guys before jumping! I never thought this car will be this complicated.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Apon Kheyal

[fbov]

On 9/23/2020 at 1:39 PM, Apon Kheyal said:

I did not even understood the difference between Energi and Hybrid when I purchased it.

Yes, there are real differences, but the thing is, if you run it like a hybrid, you still have many years of driving ahead without noticeable degradation. Regardless the battery partitioning, hybrid operation uses the middle of the charging range. Reduced upper or lower battery limits have less effect than in "fill-then-empty" charge/run modes commonly used with plug-ins. You just miss out on all those "free" EV miles, or you live with the reduction. 

Frank

[plus 3 golfer]

1) yes

2) I think there may be posts on temperature in this forum as I can’t recall what the HVB temp limit should be.  Unfortunately, the C-Max Energi forum which had lots of info apparently will not be resurrected / merged into this forum.  Also, regardless of temperature, cycling from full charge to “empty” (hybrid mode) still reduces life.  Read about Lithium ion batteries at “Battery University” on the web.  So, those who charged twice or more daily (didn’t realize cycling affects capacity loss) suffered significantly more loss.

3) I doubt the charge cable matters.  

4) The HVB cells IIRC in groups of 6 cells are automatically rebalanced. IIRC, there is also temperature related DTC data but IMO, you would want to stay significantly under those limits.  I believe to rebalance pack you would have to replace the poorest performing cell(s) in a group (in essence rebuild pack).  See link below.

OBDSM1700_HEV.pdf

[Billyk24]

On 9/23/2020 at 1:39 PM, Apon Kheyal said:

Great, thank you for spending your time and sharing your knowledge with noob like me. @Billyk24and @Plus 3 Golfer

 

I have few questions/clarification to make. the reason I started researching on this topic because when I bought the car a month ago, it was showing 17 miles on the EV meter. I never paid much attention on KWH and other stuff till I saw a drop to 15 EV miles and I got alarmed. The way I am using the car is to charge it during the middle of the night using 110V power outlet, and use it in the early morning. When I reach work, which is 16 miles away, EV miles shows 0 miles. I leave the car on the parking lot which is not shaded and commute back on hybrid mode. 100% of my commute is in the City with max speed of 50 MPH.

 

1. If my understanding is correct, Energi battery will always keep some charge to operate as a hybrid vehicle even if EV meter is at Zero. So even if I drive all the EV miles, I am not depleting the HVB fully, and therefore it is ok to use up all the available EV miles before the recharge, is that correct? 

2. As I described about my charging pattern, is it ok to charge it all year around up to 2.2 KWH ? or Should I stop charging at all during summer months? What is the temperature cutoff I should look at to make such a decision?

3. The car did not come with original charger, rather it came with a Nissan Leaf charger. Do you think that charger has something to do with the fall of of capacity level?

4. Is it possible to ask dealer to re-balance the battery pack and hope that it would bring back some of the lost capacity? I know I cannot expect a "new battery" performance from a 5 year old car. I am just trying to see if I can get little better performance which will meet my needs.

 

Again, I know this forum is for CMAX Hybrid forum and therefore thank you for all the suggestions and feedback on Energi model. To be frank, I did not even understood the difference between Energi and Hybrid when I purchased it. I will look into forscan app suggested. I wish I did little more research and found you guys before jumping! I never thought this car will be this complicated.

1= yes because the electronic transmission requires such.   No charge in the HVB, your vehicle will not start or run. 

2.  it is the HVB temperature you need to monitor, not the outdoor temperature.   The HVB cells are like humans, when it gets much above 90F, they don't care for it and don't work as well.   If you start to approach 100f, you are asking for trouble and the car may malfunction.   Ask me about it as mine shut down 4x in Michigan during a hot, sunny day when I needed a bathroom break bad and there was no shady area to park in..  Damn HVB temperature rose significantly just sitting in the sun while I needed personal time. 

3.  Cord doesn't matter

4.  If you are that serious about improved HVB capacity, you need to contact third party vendors.  Your dealer will not do such.  

[plus 3 golfer]

I looked in the SM For normal HVB operating temperature and found the following.

 

“With the ignition in the ON position and the engine running or OFF, the BECM monitors the High Voltage Battery internal temperature. There is also a High Voltage Battery inlet air temperature sensor mounted to the battery case which monitors temperature to the High Voltage Battery. The BECM uses the information from the various temperature sensors to control and maintain High Voltage Battery temperature by controlling the High Voltage Battery cooling fan. The ideal High Voltage Battery temperature is 25°C (77°F) with a desired range of 20°C (68°F) to 30°C (86°F).”

 

The SM also mentions that if one gets a HVB over temperature PID set and the HVB temperature is above 95 F and fan speed is above 1500 rpm, the PID is most likely due to environmental conditions. 
 

I’m fairly certain that I read somewhere, the HVB will operate up to 45C (could be the trigger for the over temperature PID?).  
 

I believe the bottom line is: operate the HVB above the normal temperature range and expect a higher capacity fade rate.

[Billyk24]

The HVB fans turn on when the HVB is 8f degrees warmer than the internal cabin temperature thanks to the input from Raj in 2019.

[Apon Kheyal]

On 9/26/2020 at 2:19 PM, Billyk24 said:

1= yes because the electronic transmission requires such.   No charge in the HVB, your vehicle will not start or run. 

2.  it is the HVB temperature you need to monitor, not the outdoor temperature.   The HVB cells are like humans, when it gets much above 90F, they don't care for it and don't work as well.   If you start to approach 100f, you are asking for trouble and the car may malfunction.   Ask me about it as mine shut down 4x in Michigan during a hot, sunny day when I needed a bathroom break bad and there was no shady area to park in..  Damn HVB temperature rose significantly just sitting in the sun while I needed personal time. 

3.  Cord doesn't matter

4.  If you are that serious about improved HVB capacity, you need to contact third party vendors.  Your dealer will not do such.  

Quick question on the malfunction part of the car. My car sits all day long in a parking lot without any shade. This is South Florida and during middle of summer we encounter few 100 degree F temperature days. Does this mean that car would not even start during these times or it will just stop in the middle of the road?

[plus 3 golfer]

1 hour ago, Apon Kheyal said:

Quick question on the malfunction part of the car. My car sits all day long in a parking lot without any shade. This is South Florida and during middle of summer we encounter few 100 degree F temperature days. Does this mean that car would not even start during these times or it will just stop in the middle of the road?

....Phoenix just needs 13 days to break the record, and the National Weather Service forecasts that this week will make 2020 have 135 days at or above 100degrees, with highs between 100 and 103. -3 days ago”. “Phoenix has seen 34 days where the high was over 110° in 2020.”

 

Your car will start in FL.?  The control algorithms could limit performance like use of EV / HVB should control limits be exceeded while driving. In addition, the car should never stop in the middle of the road.  If algorithms sense emergency conditions, you should see a “stop safely now” message and performance could be severely restricted (typically called “limp mode”). Once stopped, your car will likely not start until the emergency conditions are mitigated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Roger Eastman]

Thanks for all the replies; all very interesting, and informative, however, no-one has ventured any comments on my original questions:

 

Has anyone had their C-Max Hybrid HVB replaced ? If so, at what mileage,  why,  and  how much did it cost ?

[C-MaxA2]

No responses seem to suggest it doesn't occur very much... I haven't heard of anyone mentioning that on-line and that environment tends to attract more issues than compliments.  Seems to be the same for the Prius as well - rare anyone talks about a dead HVB.

[MaryB]

Glad to find this forum. Was considering buying a 2015 C-Max SEL, 84k miles, 1 owner, and was excited about entering the world of hybrids for the first time. I wanted to find out more about how long the hybrid battery might last and how much it could cost to repair. After reading this forum, I think unless I have a degree in hybrid auto mechanics, I have no business getting a hybrid. I definitely don't need a car that requires daily performance analysis. Not to mention, I live in the midwest - it gets cold in the winter, and hot in the summer, neither of which sounds good for performance. Thank you for a quick lesson in reality!