Expected life of HVB and cost to replace

[jzchen]

Well technically it isn't really called a "CARB car" but it is a car originally sold in CA or several other states who's government decided to follow California Air Resources Board rules, which govern all vehicles sold in CA.  Here are updated rules as of 2018.  There should be a warranty section in your owners materials which gives detailed coverage.

 

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/resources/fact-sheets/california-vehicle-and-emissions-warranty-periods

 

I do not know all the states that have adopted CARB rules but I will look into it right now.

Edited December 14, 2021 by jzchen

[jzchen]

Here is a list of current CARB states.  I think some of them are new meaning they adopted the rules after 2013 and hence the stricter rules may not apply.  I would first find out where, (and when), the car was originally sold and see if it was in one of these states.

 

California, Connecticut, Colorado, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and Washington D.C.

 

[Irreverent]

On 12/14/2021 at 5:24 AM, jzchen said:

Here is a list of current CARB states.  I think some of them are new meaning they adopted the rules after 2013 and hence the stricter rules may not apply.  I would first find out where, (and when), the car was originally sold and see if it was in one of these states.

 

California, Connecticut, Colorado, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and Washington D.C.

 

OK, I'm in Oregon. Why would this matter, what difference would it make, concerning my hybrid battery?

Thank you for any and all info.

 

BTW, my son is going to pay what is owed so far (hybrid battery, not replaced), and I'm having it towed home. Am hoping to learn more, and try to find a mechanic who can fix it for much less.

 

Such a weight off my shoulders!! This is the first car, at 48 years old, that was bought, just for me! Had a car, when had kids, that I helped pick out, and I mainly used it, but it was more the 'soccer mom' van, and was used for family things much of the time.

[Irreverent]

On 12/14/2021 at 5:24 AM, jzchen said:

Here is a list of current CARB states.  I think some of them are new meaning they adopted the rules after 2013 and hence the stricter rules may not apply.  I would first find out where, (and when), the car was originally sold and see if it was in one of these states.

 

California, Connecticut, Colorado, Delaware, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and Washington D.C.

 

Looked at the sight. It has pretty much been agreed that my hybrid battery was messed up because I didn't drive it that much, as I'm disabled. So, this wouldnt apply to me, as they will say it's not a defect?

I'm going to call them, and see if they have any info.

 

Next step, once I get some money, is figuring out if the HB needs to totally be replaced, or, if it can be repaired, or maybe, one from a junkyard put in it.

 

I would still appreciate any and all info on CMax hybrid batteries...

 

Thank you!!

[cr08]

If you are still under warranty, I'd still check to see if the HVB can be replaced under warranty regardless of the cause. Depending on the dealer, they may go to bat for you to get it covered if it is indeed determined to need to be replaced. I'd also say the 'haven't driven it enough' excuse is a bit dubious at best IMHO depending on how long it is between drives for you.

 

As far as replacements go, so far I haven't seen piecemeal cell swaps like you may see with the Prius'. Rather, the focus seems to be on full pack replacements.

[Irreverent]

On 12/16/2021 at 11:34 AM, cr08 said:

If you are still under warranty, I'd still check to see if the HVB can be replaced under warranty regardless of the cause. Depending on the dealer, they may go to bat for you to get it covered if it is indeed determined to need to be replaced. I'd also say the 'haven't driven it enough' excuse is a bit dubious at best IMHO depending on how long it is between drives for you.

 

As far as replacements go, so far I haven't seen piecemeal cell swaps like you may see with the Prius'. Rather, the focus seems to be on full pack replacements.

Not sure which warranty you mean.

 

I had an extended, 3 yr/so many miles (I hit the 3 yrs first) warranty.

 

If you mean the CA standards warranty, I looked up the car and:

 

That doesn't seem to be the PZEV that is required, though, I will check with CA and/or Oregon, to make sure.

 

The thing is, if it does qualify, I don't want it towed home, if there is any chance at all, it would be covered (not sure if there is a limit on my roadside assistance towing).

 

I've written to CA (the phone number listed has a mechanical voice that says to enter phone number, then it says to enter my pin...???

 

Thanks for all the help and input!!

 

I'm pretty sure the GM just wants the car out of his hair...

 

If it did qualify, wouldnt the dealership be out the money, to replace the hybrid battery?

 

[Irreverent]

On 12/16/2021 at 11:34 AM, cr08 said:

If you are still under warranty, I'd still check to see if the HVB can be replaced under warranty regardless of the cause. Depending on the dealer, they may go to bat for you to get it covered if it is indeed determined to need to be replaced. I'd also say the 'haven't driven it enough' excuse is a bit dubious at best IMHO depending on how long it is between drives for you.

 

As far as replacements go, so far I haven't seen piecemeal cell swaps like you may see with the Prius'. Rather, the focus seems to be on full pack replacements.

Thank you, sooooo much for this information!! 

 

It came down to the dealership continuing to tell me it was not covered (sent me a pic of a printout they had done, showing my car wasn't under any warranty. But, it showed, right on the page, 'Warning: verify if car may be covered under CA emission warranty'. (!!!!) 

 

So, while still texting with the service rep, I called Ford (this was Thursday), and the woman who helped me, told me my car IS COVERED!!! 

 

She is going to call the dealership tomorrow, Monday, and tell them it's covered!! 

 

And, I never would have had ANY idea, w/o you telling me about it!! 

 

I'm gonna have a working ?, and not a huge paperweight in my driveway!!! (lol, that's the color my car is... the license plate has GBF at the end... I call my car the Green Blueberry (from Psyche, Shawn always says, 'to the blueberry',  when they run for Gus's car...), and, well, hybrid, my car is green... so, license plate is: Green Blueberry Forever! 

 

Thank you, SOOOOOO much!!! 

 

Catherine Olson

[ptjones]

There is Green Tech Auto that refurbishes CMAX HVB by buying used HVB 's and taking the good cells and putting them to replacing the bad cells.  I talked to the guys there and they said they could put together a HVB that is better than factory new. 

Main Phone:

800-773-6614

 

GreenTec Auto Headquarters

Paul

[A2mike]

Replacement Energi battery for $1200

https://batteryhookup.com/products/ford-c-max-21-cell-26ah-module-car-audio-special-2kwh

They show them as 26AH which equates to 8kWh

[leasadie]

Not sure that I'm seeing the same battery hookup information you are referencing - link specifically says 2 kWh (3.7V nominal * 21 cells *26Ah = 2.02kWh). I think that this one is 1/2 (say 3.3 kWh but that’s based on nominal voltage) of a full C-max Energi HVB. Ford marketing probably used fully charged cell voltage - 4.2V * 48 cells * 37Ah = 7.46 kWh

 

I almost got stuck figuring out how to take two of them and rebuild my own 2014 Energi HVB. Electric only range had dropped from 25 Miles (New 2014) -> 18 Miles (2019 - 80K miles ) -> 15 miles (2020 - 92K) all with no HVAC.  Dealer I bought it from kept telling me that ‘all was well’ even though cell testing showed they were maxing out at 3.9 V and the once I found the MyFordMobile app, it was telling me I was only getting 3.3 kWh from a full charge.

I would have frequent Yellow wrench warning lights on from 2017 on and it took a few tries for the dealer's service techs to understand _and_ let me know that the errors presented when the yellow wrench was on disappear when the car was is turned off and not available via the standard ODB2 command set.  They replaced the charging port, battery control module (2x), charger cooling elements, entire wiring harness and late in 2020 (97K miles), finally got Ford to agree to replace the battery. Luckily, I had paid for a 10 yr/120K Ford ESP so I ended up paying only the deductible -$100. Range with the Ford refurbished HVB went up to 22 miles - yeah!

I spoke to the shop foreman about a year later who let me know Ford charged $23K for the replacement HVB - told him to check out BatteryHookup or they could subcontract the work to me…

 

The good:

Car has 110K and drives 20+ miles/day since 2014 on full electric - averaging 57 MPG overall

Drives great and handles western NY winters fine with snows

Dealer always had a newer loaner than my car when I had to leave it for service

 

The bad:

Dealer didn’t really have anyone except the shop Foreman who knew hybrids/plugins

Service techs and service manager kept telling me the electrical issues were due to my Level 2 home charger - I had to explain that the Cmax ‘charger’ circuitry was onboard the car and all my charger did was be a big fat extension cord

Kept the car in service for ~ 1 month/year from 2017-2020

Passed up a 2015 Energi for my kids for $5K two months ago - now they’re $15K on Carvana

Edited January 21, 2022 by leasadie
fixed Carvana autocorrect

[Billyk24]

The  degradation of the kWh capacity is common for many owners who do not realize what is happening while they drive it.  It is highly related to the inept thermal regulatory system that relies upon the cabin air for cooling purposes.  Those of us with data monitoring in real time realize how poorly this vehicle can regulate the battery temperature.   Hypermiling, excessive charging, just sitting in the warm summer sun all contribute to this loss in kWh capacity. 

[ptjones]

Hypermiling Using coasting in Neutral actually cools the HVB, I have seen this with my CMAX.

 

Paul 

[A2mike]

leasadie, The battery I linked was for 1/4 of the modules needed for $300. All 4 would be $1200

[Gremlin]

my 2014 Energi w/ 46kmi just started having HV problems, which seem to be charger related. I'm hoping that's all it is, as _my_ dealer is quoting nearly $10k for a replacement battery pack. two weeks to get a service appointment and car still works well as a generic hybrid. fingers crossed something can be done (and done affordably) as I don't want to be buying a car in this economy.