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HVB and EV+ Mode: What is the relationship?


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74 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 11:08 AM

I think there is a lot of overlap with the cars.  Sure, there are differences.  But some times the points overlap depending on what you're trying to explain.

 

Though I'm *completely* missing your point on why EV+ makes more sense in the Energi...  The Energi would be much more likely than the Hybrid to be making it home without starting the ICE...  If you're still in EV mode then EV+ isn't going to do anything at all...

 

Sure there's a reason to only charge the Energi to 50%(or 40% if that seems to be best charge holding battery longevity number).  I park my car Friday afternoon and don't need it again until Tuesday morning.  It would be best if I could just have it in a "storage charge" mode and charged to 40%, then when my Go Time comes up Tuesday morning it finishes charging up to 100%.

 

I think you're confusing some terms...

-"Value charging" is what you could set up to have it delay charging at all and I don't know of anything that would delay it more than a day.

-"Go Times" are what you'd set up to make sure your car is charged and or temp controlled(attempted) by a specific time(but it won't delay anything)

-"EV Later" is only used while you are actually driving and it will just put the car into hybrid mode at whatever set point the battery is currently at.  I.e. you want to keep the EV battery held at 95%.

 

I'm aware of the terminology. When I set up Go Times I checked out value charging; as I recall it was part of the process, or maybe I just did them together to see if there were cheaper rates.

 

The Go time will consider the departure time and ensure the HVB is fully charged when you are ready to go, and I believe it will begin early regardless of value settings. You mentioned it might be best if the Energi waited until it had to for charging the HVB in order to be ready at departure. It does exactly that with the Go times. That is why I brought it up.

 

In my opinion, EV+ doesn't make much sense for the Hybrid. If you run the battery all the way down, it will have to charge up immediately when you start, causing you to run the ICE while charging at first run. My Escape Hybrid tended to do that (that tech required the engine to run at each start up), and it is pretty much the worst for MPG. It would be better if there were more charge available when starting - at least you could get a start and logically kick in the engine once you got going. In addition, unlike the Energi where the grid will charge the HVB, the battery will be in a lower SOC overnight. I think it was easier for Ford to just put in a lot of the same software, and that is why EV+ is in the hybrid.

 

Along those lines, they could have customized EV Later so that it used the higher capacity HVB - but they didn't; it works the same as the Hybrid, and I would bet that the computer algorithms are just about identical once you hit the EV Later swtich.

 

There. Despite what I said, we just spend time discussing Energi topics on the hybrid forum - not many will be interested here.









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#42 OFFLINE   livesmith

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 02:35 PM

I'm aware of the terminology. When I set up Go Times I checked out value charging; as I recall it was part of the process, or maybe I just did them together to see if there were cheaper rates.

 

The Go time will consider the departure time and ensure the HVB is fully charged when you are ready to go, and I believe it will begin early regardless of value settings. You mentioned it might be best if the Energi waited until it had to for charging the HVB in order to be ready at departure. It does exactly that with the Go times. That is why I brought it up.

 

In my opinion, EV+ doesn't make much sense for the Hybrid. If you run the battery all the way down, it will have to charge up immediately when you start, causing you to run the ICE while charging at first run. My Escape Hybrid tended to do that (that tech required the engine to run at each start up), and it is pretty much the worst for MPG. It would be better if there were more charge available when starting - at least you could get a start and logically kick in the engine once you got going. In addition, unlike the Energi where the grid will charge the HVB, the battery will be in a lower SOC overnight. I think it was easier for Ford to just put in a lot of the same software, and that is why EV+ is in the hybrid.

 

Along those lines, they could have customized EV Later so that it used the higher capacity HVB - but they didn't; it works the same as the Hybrid, and I would bet that the computer algorithms are just about identical once you hit the EV Later swtich.

 

There. Despite what I said, we just spend time discussing Energi topics on the hybrid forum - not many will be interested here.

I agree with your first statement. "It will begin early regardless."  Yes, if you don't have value charging set up then the Go times will have basically no effect on charging.  It will simply start charging as soon as you plug it in and finish when it gets to 100%.

 

You have to use Value charging to get any sort of delay and that still doesn't delay for more than a day.

 

 

You seem to have entered a third opinion on EV+ and another one that goes directly against what Ford says it's supposed to do and everything that I've seen it do.  

Ford simply says that it is meant to help keep the ICE from running as you near a place you're going to stop at.  That's all I've seen it do.

If the other opinion I've heard is that it's mean to lower SOC, then I don't see why they didn't just program EV+ to simply aim for that magic 40% charge level.

But it sounds like you don't agree with Ford or the other opinion of lowering SOC.

 

I'm not following what you are thinking EV Later should do with the HVB?  I'd bet it's about the same algorithm as the hybrid  well...  That's what it's supposed to do...  It's purpose is to NOT use the HVB...  If you want to use the HVB, you would go with either EV now or Auto mode...



#43 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 03:17 PM

I'm aware of the terminology. When I set up Go Times I checked out value charging; as I recall it was part of the process, or maybe I just did them together to see if there were cheaper rates.

 

The Go time will consider the departure time and ensure the HVB is fully charged when you are ready to go, and I believe it will begin early regardless of value settings. You mentioned it might be best if the Energi waited until it had to for charging the HVB in order to be ready at departure. It does exactly that with the Go times. That is why I brought it up.

 

In my opinion, EV+ doesn't make much sense for the Hybrid. If you run the battery all the way down, it will have to charge up immediately when you start, causing you to run the ICE while charging at first run. My Escape Hybrid tended to do that (that tech required the engine to run at each start up), and it is pretty much the worst for MPG. It would be better if there were more charge available when starting - at least you could get a start and logically kick in the engine once you got going. In addition, unlike the Energi where the grid will charge the HVB, the battery will be in a lower SOC overnight. I think it was easier for Ford to just put in a lot of the same software, and that is why EV+ is in the hybrid.

 

Along those lines, they could have customized EV Later so that it used the higher capacity HVB - but they didn't; it works the same as the Hybrid, and I would bet that the computer algorithms are just about identical once you hit the EV Later swtich.

 

There. Despite what I said, we just spend time discussing Energi topics on the hybrid forum - not many will be interested here.

Here is my take on EV+ with the Hybrid, first is the only time transmission fluid is being pumped is when the ICE is running.  When you start in the morning as soon as you hit 35 mph the ICE will start no matter SOC or WT to lube the trans.  Second the ICE needs to be above 128*F WT and will try to keep from going into EV until it does. :sad: This is why I heat up oil pan and block heaters in the morning so I'm already above 128*F. :)  Also quite often when the HVB cools off the SOC will go up alot, I have seen as high as 23% when it was 57% and the next morning it was 80%, WOW! :yahoo:

 

Paul



#44 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 05:11 PM

I agree with your first statement. "It will begin early regardless."  Yes, if you don't have value charging set up then the Go times will have basically no effect on charging.  It will simply start charging as soon as you plug it in and finish when it gets to 100%.

 

You have to use Value charging to get any sort of delay and that still doesn't delay for more than a day.

 

 

You seem to have entered a third opinion on EV+ and another one that goes directly against what Ford says it's supposed to do and everything that I've seen it do.  

Ford simply says that it is meant to help keep the ICE from running as you near a place you're going to stop at.  That's all I've seen it do.

If the other opinion I've heard is that it's mean to lower SOC, then I don't see why they didn't just program EV+ to simply aim for that magic 40% charge level.

But it sounds like you don't agree with Ford or the other opinion of lowering SOC.

 

I'm not following what you are thinking EV Later should do with the HVB?  I'd bet it's about the same algorithm as the hybrid  well...  That's what it's supposed to do...  It's purpose is to NOT use the HVB...  If you want to use the HVB, you would go with either EV now or Auto mode...

I probably should have said hybrid mode rather than EV later, although they are similar. The Energi is programmed as if the remaining "hybrid" battery is all there is. In fact there is a lot more HVB capacity available. You can see the effect after the HVB is out of EV and you are running hybrid. The battery attempts to leave room for regen when engaging EV. This is better for the hybrid, which has no extra battery - when you slow down, it has room in the HVB for energy capture. But with the Energi, it does not have to worry about leaving extra capacity to use for regen - it could theoretically perform differently, and not try and leave capacity in the battery. It changes the way the car uses EV. I don't know if it could be improved much, but I've noticed it tries to keep capacity available when the Energi is in "hybrid" mode - just like the C-Max Hybrid does. I doubt that a hybrid owner would notice, but to this Energi owner, I think it could be done better. Anyway, that is how I see that Ford duplicated the code instead of customizing it for the Energi. I think they took the hybrid code and basically tacked on the Energi modes (which were custom made for the plug in models).

 

It is the same in EV+, but you can't monitor it like you can when the "hybrid" battery is showing - that is, after EV Only and EV Later modes are disabled. In EV Later mode, you still have the mileage estimate on the battery (at least up until the mid 2015 model year, not sure about 2016 and later) - and other than showing range going up and down, you can't really tell what the car is doing with the "hybrid" reserved portion of the battery.



#45 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 05:58 PM

It sounds like you can use up NRG portion of HVB and then keep going EV in Hybrid part of HVB.  How much extra range is that? :)

 

Paul



#46 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 08:56 PM

It sounds like you can use up NRG portion of HVB and then keep going EV in Hybrid part of HVB.  How much extra range is that? :)

 

Paul

Once the "hybrid portion kicks in, it won't go any further than yours, maybe two or three miles. However, many times I've managed to complete an all EV trip by being careful with the accelerator once the "big" battery is finished and I'm into the "hybrid" battery. There is no physical difference, of course; Ford just apportions off part of the Energi HVB and considers that the "hybrid" portion. I imagine they use different parts to spread the load around, but I don't know.



#47 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 07:51 AM

Once the "hybrid portion kicks in, it won't go any further than yours, maybe two or three miles. However, many times I've managed to complete an all EV trip by being careful with the accelerator once the "big" battery is finished and I'm into the "hybrid" battery. There is no physical difference, of course; Ford just apportions off part of the Energi HVB and considers that the "hybrid" portion. I imagine they use different parts to spread the load around, but I don't know.

So how much range do you have combining the two? :)

 

Paul



#48 OFFLINE   Plus 3 Golfer

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 09:17 AM

Once the "hybrid portion kicks in, it won't go any further than yours, maybe two or three miles. However, many times I've managed to complete an all EV trip by being careful with the accelerator once the "big" battery is finished and I'm into the "hybrid" battery. There is no physical difference, of course; Ford just apportions off part of the Energi HVB and considers that the "hybrid" portion. I imagine they use different parts to spread the load around, but I don't know.

Does it help to switch between the EV later, EV now and EV auto modes while driving to essentially extend EV range by trying to use ICE more at perhaps at higher speeds (higher power requirements) and save EV for lower speeds (lower power requirements) and so forth? 

 

I doubt Ford uses different parts of the HVB for HEV operation and a different part for EV operation to spread the load around. That's counter to operating batteries in general when cycling but it could be done.  It seems that would highly complicate equalizing the charge on the individual cells which is one of the most important functions for battery long life - making sure all cells are balanced and have an equal charge.  I would envision one battery for control operations and that the control algorithm simply apportions a slice of the entire HVB to Hybrid operation based on the control mode (EV later, now, and auto) as the HVB is being discharged. The slice would then not be a fixed portion of the HVB but in essence "move" depending on the SOC.  Of course once one depletes the HVB near it's lower limit, the bottom portion of the HVB would then be operated just like the Hybrid.

 

One more point on this thread in general to get back on topic of the thread.  If I calculate the savings from using EV+ vs not using EV plus for Energi owners, it seems it would likely be less than a $10 bill annually. Of course it is highly dependent on electricity vs gas prices.  But the amount of gas that would be saved for the last 1/2 mile or so say 365 times a year is not much (maybe 4-5 gallons) and the amount of electricity used (maybe 50 kWh) make the difference rather insignificant in the operation of EV+.  Also, I doubt for Hybrid owners that use EV+ saves much fuel, if any, as fuel is the only source of energy.  ICE must run on cold startup to reach the operating temperature for closed loop operation anyways.  Again I'll bet the fuel saved, if any, is less than a $10 a year.

 

IMO, EV+ as it currently exists is marketing hype by Ford.  Now expand EV+ for say the last 5 miles with many intermediate locations along the route including the controls to optimize the use of EV and ICE over those last 5 miles, and one may achieve meaningful economic benefits.  We can argue as to whether use of EV+ extends the life of the HVB, but IMO the real benefit of the EV+ algorithm is yet to come.


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#49 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 11:50 AM

For me the EV+ works with my strategy of using HVB for speeds less than 35mph and I'm currently getting 56-58mpg for the last three tanks. From a stop I will accelerate to 15-20 mph before starting ICE and usually works fine if you have enough HVB SOC.    Most of my driving is 45-55 mph and will go slower if there isn't any traffic so I can  use terrain to improve MPG's. Slow down going uphills and coasting down hills.  :)  When I first start out in the morning I can go down to 32% HVB SOC before ICE will kicks in if I use light accelerator pressure. I usually be going at least 15 mph and can get to 35 mph before the ICE starts. The faster you are going when the ICE starts, better the ICE gas mileage is. You can see this watching your instantaneous MPG Smart Gauge, at 25-35 mph you're getting maybe 10 mpg, but at 65 mph you're getting 20-25 mpg. :)  

 

Paul



#50 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 01:48 PM

 Slow down going uphills and coasting down hills.  :)  When I first start out in the morning I can go down to 32% HVB SOC before ICE will kicks in if I use light accelerator pressure. I usually be going at least 15 mph and can get to 35 mph before the ICE starts. The faster you are going when the ICE starts, better the ICE gas mileage is. You can see this watching your instantaneous MPG Smart Gauge, at 25-35 mph you're getting maybe 10 mpg, but at 65 mph you're getting 20-25 mpg. :)  

 

Paul

 

What I have been doing with longer substantial hills is speed up a little before the hill and then a 2 bar burn up the hill which means slowing down.  My sense which I have not proved is that it is better to burn a little extra wind resistance going down to get the hill over quicker, rather than lug up a long hill at a slower speed.  This allows for more "slowing down."

 

Your thoughts on speed and ICE are interesting and I will have to think about them.   Perhaps you can expand on that.

 

I tend to tap the "gas" pedal when I first start out to kind of warm the engine up, but go slowly so to be accelerating on EV. (at start up a tap starts engine but is moved with the HVB and electric motor) For if the first pedal push requires good acceleration it seems very costly.


Edited by obob, 27 August 2016 - 01:56 PM.


#51 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 07:13 PM

What I have been doing with longer substantial hills is speed up a little before the hill and then a 2 bar burn up the hill which means slowing down.  My sense which I have not proved is that it is better to burn a little extra wind resistance going down to get the hill over quicker, rather than lug up a long hill at a slower speed.  This allows for more "slowing down."

 

Your thoughts on speed and ICE are interesting and I will have to think about them.   Perhaps you can expand on that.

 

I tend to tap the "gas" pedal when I first start out to kind of warm the engine up, but go slowly so to be accelerating on EV. (at start up a tap starts engine but is moved with the HVB and electric motor) For if the first pedal push requires good acceleration it seems very costly.  

 

You waste heat that way unfortunately , the longer it takes to get to 128*F WT the more heat energy is loss from cooling the ICE.   That's why I said the best approach is to EV up to 35 mph then the ICE will turn on automatically to lube the trans and also heat the ICE at the same time.  It takes more energy to go 45 mph then 35 or 25 mph and less time.  Just another reason to use Grill Covers. :)

 

In the morning your HVB is cold which causes it be able to drain quicker = more power.  Next time when HVB is cool and has 50%+ SOC accelerate at the maximum power in the blue(around two bars)on the Smart Gauge Empower Display, just to see how quick the CMAX is in EV. :)

 

Paul


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Posted 27 August 2016 - 10:24 PM

I finally found the article I read years ago on using GPS data to control the power train.  Here's the link.  In case the link gets broken,  I copied and pasted it below.

I think it is clear that the future goal is to use location data to employ fuel savings techniques and enhance safety.  I highlighted the Ford comments and other salient points in red.

 

Automakers are beginning to leverage integrated GPS receivers, using positional data much like input from other sensors. Integrating GPS with electric powertrain controls can conserve energy, while locational data can also enhance telematics services and apps.

 

Ford Motor Co. and General Motors recently detailed some of the benefits of integrating GPS with other systems. Ford’s Fusion and C-Max Hybrid and Energi use GPS data to run longer on batteries when vehicles are near the home or office. That’s possible because it’s likely the EV’s batteries will be charged there or that the hybrid will use its internal combustion engine for a cold start later on.

 

“Cabin, engine, and catalyst warming can be done most energy efficiently while putting energy back into the battery,” said Thomas Gee, Hybrid Controls and Strategy Implementation Manager for Ford. “This is Ford’s first use of GPS information to modify the operating mode of the powertrain.”

 

When GM touted the sophistication of sensors used on its Cadillac XTS earlier this year, the company said it plans to augment vehicle sensors with GPS satellite input.

 

“Any time you’re dealing with position, GPS can be very important,” said Bakhtiar Litkouhi, GM Research and Development Lab Group Manager for Vehicle Control Systems. “Combined with map information, it tells you where you are, whether the road’s curving, and whether the speed limit goes up or down.”

 

GM noted that GPS data can also help improve safety by eliminating some of the false positives that can occur with electronic stability control (ESC) systems. Yaw-rate sensors in ESC systems can sometimes detect skids when the vehicle is going around a sharp curve.

 

“If the system understands where the vehicle is on a curved road and knows its position on the road, it can account for curves and changes in grading,” Litkouhi said.

 

The growing number of vehicles employing telematics and apps will further expand the role of GPS data. Many prognosticators feel that location-based services will be an important element in telematics services. Most apps are also expected to use positional data.

 

“Location is an enabler for a wide set of applications,” said Dominique Bonte, Vice President at ABI Research. “It’s almost hard to think of apps that won’t use location data.”

 

Bonte said that factory installed navigation systems should surpass portable navigation device shipments by 2015. The total in-car navigation market should grow at 25.9% over the next five years, ABI predicts.

 

Bonte noted that, for fuel-saving techniques like anticipating turns and hills, map quality must be improved. Tier One suppliers who are developing systems that fuse GPS positioning information with map-based data also note that the accuracy of maps and GPS data must be high for many functions.

 

“In this context, the actual availability of detailed maps is a major challenge, even for maps provided on-the-fly over the air,” said Alois Seewald, Global Research and Development Director for TRW Cognitive Safety Integration. “Selecting relevant data to be included in such maps and defining a standard to handle this data is the next substantial task.”

 

Seewald added that once these goals are accomplished, little additional effort is required to leverage GPS and maps installed for navigation to provide information for adaptive cruise control or curve lighting systems.

 

 


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#53 OFFLINE   jestevens

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 06:18 AM

Yes, it more or less -has- to prove the engine and warm up the catalytic converter on start up most times anyway so why not use more battery at the end of a trip and use the next warm up cycle to charge the battery since the engine is going to have to run regardless?  That's one reason EV+ is on the hybrid I'm sure. 

 

There are pure electric cars but the C-MAX is not one of them, I still like it a lot.


Edited by jestevens, 29 August 2016 - 06:19 AM.

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#54 OFFLINE   HotPotato

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 11:54 AM

It would appear you are incapable of understanding what I'm saying... 

 

Frank, what's going on? When you first joined the forum, you were so friendly and constructive that it was a real treat to read anything you had to say. But gradually your manner grew disdainful toward anyone whose perspective didn't mirror yours. That doesn't benefit understanding or camaraderie.

 

When you feel like the other person's an idiot--maybe they are. Or maybe you didn't explain yourself clearly. Or maybe you're mistaken and they're correct. Or maybe the two of you aren't quite having the same conversation---maybe it's idle chit-chat and nobody needs to be right. A little humility can't hurt. Just my 2 cents. Carry on. :-)



#55 OFFLINE   livesmith

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 12:02 PM

I probably should have said hybrid mode rather than EV later, although they are similar. The Energi is programmed as if the remaining "hybrid" battery is all there is. In fact there is a lot more HVB capacity available. You can see the effect after the HVB is out of EV and you are running hybrid. The battery attempts to leave room for regen when engaging EV. This is better for the hybrid, which has no extra battery - when you slow down, it has room in the HVB for energy capture. But with the Energi, it does not have to worry about leaving extra capacity to use for regen - it could theoretically perform differently, and not try and leave capacity in the battery. It changes the way the car uses EV. I don't know if it could be improved much, but I've noticed it tries to keep capacity available when the Energi is in "hybrid" mode - just like the C-Max Hybrid does. I doubt that a hybrid owner would notice, but to this Energi owner, I think it could be done better. Anyway, that is how I see that Ford duplicated the code instead of customizing it for the Energi. I think they took the hybrid code and basically tacked on the Energi modes (which were custom made for the plug in models).

 

It is the same in EV+, but you can't monitor it like you can when the "hybrid" battery is showing - that is, after EV Only and EV Later modes are disabled. In EV Later mode, you still have the mileage estimate on the battery (at least up until the mid 2015 model year, not sure about 2016 and later) - and other than showing range going up and down, you can't really tell what the car is doing with the "hybrid" reserved portion of the battery.

 

Still not entirely sure I'm following you, but if I'm close to what you're saying, to my knowledge yes EV Later is strictly intended as switching to "hybrid mode" at a given set point of SOC.  It will tell you when you select EV Later what the battery set point is.  The only place where it's a bit different is that like you said it wants to leave room for regen so it won't hold a set point of more than 95%.  If you have the car charged at 100% and you hit EV Later it will set it to 95% and you'll generally drive however many miles before the ICE starts up when the charge gets around 95% and how much power you're asking for.

You can bring up the SOC on the leaf screen and see the charge level go up and down.  It's usually only a few percent difference in either direction, but I think I saw it drop as much as 7% below the set point at one time up a good hill.  And you can still see the battery charge and discharge with the usual arrows.

 

It will still regen as much as you can though.  If you're in hybrid mode it can regen back into EV mode and if you have it on EV Later and set to 0% you can regen back up to 100% if you have enough opportunity.

 

That's also the only trick I know of getting the battery to recharge back up while driving.  If you're starting at something like 5% and set EV Later you can drive either normally or learn the right accelerator position and the charge level will go up to like 6% then you click through the auto, ev and back to EV Later again and you now have the set point at 6%.  It's a lot of messing around for debatably any benefit at all, but it's the only way I know of if you want to.



#56 OFFLINE   livesmith

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 12:04 PM

It sounds like you can use up NRG portion of HVB and then keep going EV in Hybrid part of HVB.  How much extra range is that? :)

 

Paul

I'd bet it's about the same as your hybrid if it starts with a full battery.  Range all depends on how it's driven.  Going up my hills I'm lucky if it's very far at all. Could maybe be a few miles if you babied it under great flat conditions.



#57 OFFLINE   livesmith

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 12:09 PM

So how much range do you have combining the two? :)

 

Paul

I'm guessing you're talking about EV only range...  Between about 10-35 miles.  Depends HUGELY on the conditions.  If you don't need any climate control, you set the cruise at 25mph and go on nice flat roads you could probably clear 35 miles.  Go out in the winter with the heater on, up a hill or try to get on the highway, etc and you could get less than 10 miles.

 

If you mean with the ICE as well, I think the tank is like a half gallon larger than the hybrid version but the final drive ratio is a bit lower.  With my Energi in hybrid mode I've seen about 57MPG with setting the cruise at 25mph and babying/playing around the hills.  But on my trip home from the dealer in January with the cruise around 70mph it showed just over 27MPG.  For some reason my Energi seems to be getting a bit lower MPG than other Energi's I've heard from.



#58 OFFLINE   livesmith

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 12:19 PM

Does it help to switch between the EV later, EV now and EV auto modes while driving to essentially extend EV range by trying to use ICE more at perhaps at higher speeds (higher power requirements) and save EV for lower speeds (lower power requirements) and so forth? 

 

I doubt Ford uses different parts of the HVB for HEV operation and a different part for EV operation to spread the load around. That's counter to operating batteries in general when cycling but it could be done.  It seems that would highly complicate equalizing the charge on the individual cells which is one of the most important functions for battery long life - making sure all cells are balanced and have an equal charge.  I would envision one battery for control operations and that the control algorithm simply apportions a slice of the entire HVB to Hybrid operation based on the control mode (EV later, now, and auto) as the HVB is being discharged. The slice would then not be a fixed portion of the HVB but in essence "move" depending on the SOC.  Of course once one depletes the HVB near it's lower limit, the bottom portion of the HVB would then be operated just like the Hybrid.

 

One more point on this thread in general to get back on topic of the thread.  If I calculate the savings from using EV+ vs not using EV plus for Energi owners, it seems it would likely be less than a $10 bill annually. Of course it is highly dependent on electricity vs gas prices.  But the amount of gas that would be saved for the last 1/2 mile or so say 365 times a year is not much (maybe 4-5 gallons) and the amount of electricity used (maybe 50 kWh) make the difference rather insignificant in the operation of EV+.  Also, I doubt for Hybrid owners that use EV+ saves much fuel, if any, as fuel is the only source of energy.  ICE must run on cold startup to reach the operating temperature for closed loop operation anyways.  Again I'll bet the fuel saved, if any, is less than a $10 a year.

 

IMO, EV+ as it currently exists is marketing hype by Ford.  Now expand EV+ for say the last 5 miles with many intermediate locations along the route including the controls to optimize the use of EV and ICE over those last 5 miles, and one may achieve meaningful economic benefits.  We can argue as to whether use of EV+ extends the life of the HVB, but IMO the real benefit of the EV+ algorithm is yet to come.

 

Depending on circumstances you can "play" with the system to gain a bit.  I mean if you're only driving 10 miles and you've got a full EV battery then it's definitely going to be the best to just stay in EV mode and never start the ICE at all.  I can easily clear 160MPGe that way on my way to work in the morning and I've cleared 200MPGe when trying a bit more.

 

But if you're taking a longer trip where you're going to need to start the ICE at some time it depends.  For my usual commute I'll keep it in EV for 13 miles to work.  Then for the most part just leave it in EV mode until it runs out and use the ICE/hybrid for the last half-ish part of the trip.  Though I do tend to try to hit EV Later a bit earlier than I need it to get the ICE warmed up so I'm not either pulling max amps from the battery to go up a hill and/or having the ICE start up cold and then immediately hitting high revs.

 

 

So... Yeah, if you're talking about longer trips, it might better to leave the ICE off entirely if it's going to cool off during a work day anyway, or as a general rule otherwise I'll aim for the most efficient/long term use which is generally along the lines of using EV mode for speed limits around <45mph and EV later for the highways and/or up hills.

 

 

I agree there's no indication that there's any different parts used for EV vs hybrid portions on the Energi.  It's just software.

 

I agree with you on EV+ as well. I think it's like Eco cruise.  It's a nice little feature that has a slight little benefit, but not really anything noticeable in real world dollars.



#59 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 11:05 PM

Wow, who would have thought EV+ could create so much buzz - and here's a bit more (sorry for any repetition):

 

Ford's Reasons For Having EV+:  The link from +3 (another link and another) says it is for increased efficiency and to give the customer what they want (more EV operation).

  1. Increased efficiency.  Some may argue that it doesn't help them but remember that Ford doesn't know your specific operating scenario, just that of the "average" driver.  I could easily believe that the algorithm helps in that case.
  2. More Of What We Want.  Don't you love how marketing people like to tell you what you want?  However, they seem to be right - you read endlessly how we should maximize EV operation.  You can agree or not but Ford believes it is good marketing to say we want more EV operation.
  3. Ongoing research.  Ford has patent(s) associated with this feature that appear quite broad.  They will want to collect both technical and marketing data on how well it works in the real world so they can better develop the application of their patents.  A number of features related to safety and efficiency discussed in the links are not in today's cars.  Data will be needed to create these new features.
  4. Extended Battery Life.  I tend to agree that it is good for battery life but don't know if it is a reason Ford included it or not.  Ford doesn't seem to be worried about the battery lasting the "life of the car" but they sure don't want a bunch of early failures either.  I'm glad EV+ is there on this account as I plan to go 250k miles.

Ford's Reasons For Telling Us Why They Included EV+:  Lets assume all the above are reasons - here's why Ford might tell (or NOT tell) you about them"

  1. Increased efficiency.  Sounds great - we'll tell you about it!
  2. More EV Operation.  Ford knows what we want so its safe to tell us so!
  3. Ongoing research.  Ford said there is more efficiency to come - sounds great.
  4. Extended Battery Life.  Should sound great but wait!  The "urban legend" says electric/hybrid batteries "die" after 100k miles and leave the car "worthless".  Once that idea is stuck in someones head you can just forget about talking them out of it - its simply "true".  So, why would Ford "admit" there is a problem with battery life by telling you how they are trying to extend it!  Marketing suicide.

Other Reasons To Like EV+ 

  1. Transmission Lubrication.  "Forcing" the ICE to start earlier in the morning seems good so the transmission gets lubricated right away.  I often kick on the ICE when leaving the house for this reason.  I'm past 100k miles so there's no more warranty.
  2. Cooler car/ICE when you park.  Might be trivial but should keep some heat out of the garage in the summer.
  3. Creates lots of forum discussion!

  • fbov and livesmith like this

#60 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 31 August 2016 - 03:12 PM

Wow, this has been active the past few days. I'll try and answer here instead of quoting.

 

I never thought about how much I get out of the entire battery. I'd say 25 in winter and around 34 in summer, the winter is without heat.

 

As others have noted, EV Later sets aside a portion of the battery equal to the size of the C-Max Hybrid, and then runs that portion up and down, just like the hybrid does.








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