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HVB and EV+ Mode: What is the relationship?


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#61 OFFLINE   agilix

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 10:46 AM

When posting the original question, I never expected to generate such a lengthy discussion on EV+ either :) Thanks for all the insights and revelations!

 

I am seriously NOT a car expert at all. From what I can summarize by reading this forum and online materials, if you are a Ford marketing person, what do you think the average C-Max buyers are concerned about? I can think of three topics:

 

(1) How much gas do I save? (Thus so many discussions of MPG, 600-mile club, cover of the engine chambers, drifting behind big truck, avoid acceleration or hilly route, etc.)

(2) How long can the HVB last? (Thus so many discussions on warranty and consumer confusion of 12V battery and large HVB, replacement cost, etc.)

(3) I can't find a No.3 here. (Most other issues are related to 1 or 2, or not significant in comparison, or lesser a factor you considered when buying a C-max., perhaps power or comfort?......Again, sorry for my ignorance since I am not a car expert.)

 

So for me, the EV+ mode appears to serve the top two interests here (regardless whether Ford is promoting it this way). By using more HVB, you can drive a little longer on EV, and get higher MPG overall; also reduce the HVB level for (potential) long time storage. That is also my concern that when the HVB is too low, the next start will lead to ICE kicking in right away, and may lead to less gas saving and lower MPG

 

It is quite clear now that the HVB indicator is not accurate and the small difference is hardly significant or meaningful for topic 2. One way I can think of avoiding an "ultra-low" HVB storage level (if that were even possible!) is to avoid aggressively prolong EV driving just BEFORE EV+ comes up. This way, you expect a higher level of HVB before EV+, and thus a little higher level of HVB once you park the car. My current rule of thumb is observing the triangles more tentatively for the battery use or charge, and to maintain half or above HVB level before EV+ coming on (less than 0.4 miles in my case). Make sense?

 

Enjoy the long weekend!









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#62 OFFLINE   Bill-N

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 12:13 PM

It's my understanding that the HVB works best at about 70 degrees F.  If this is true, then, especially in colder climates, the engine will start in the morning just to warm up the HVB.  EV+ thus makes sense to me.  If the engine is going to start anyway, why not use some of the HVB before hand and later use the running engine to both warm up and recharge the battery.



#63 OFFLINE   obob

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 12:14 PM

Wow, this has been active the past few days. I'll try and answer here instead of quoting.

 

I never thought about how much I get out of the entire battery. I'd say 25 in winter and around 34 in summer, the winter is without heat.

 

As others have noted, EV Later sets aside a portion of the battery equal to the size of the C-Max Hybrid, and then runs that portion up and down, just like the hybrid does.

 

So it seems like the energi could be better than the hybrid in the winter because the extra battery can be used for heating which is very inefficient for the ICE to do, unless on the highway.

 

That could be the good reason for me to have an energi.  A warm car in the winter.  In the winter I usually keep the car on the cool side to avoid the agony of lower mpg.


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#64 OFFLINE   raadsel

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 04:00 PM

It's my understanding that the HVB works best at about 70 degrees F.  If this is true, then, especially in colder climates, the engine will start in the morning just to warm up the HVB.  EV+ thus makes sense to me.  If the engine is going to start anyway, why not use some of the HVB before hand and later use the running engine to both warm up and recharge the battery.

 

The engine does not start to warm the HVB -- at least partially because the engine is in the front of the car and the battery in the back. The engine starts to warm the engine and get it up to normal operating temps -- so that it runs efficiently. Beyond that, the engine will also run to heat up for the cabin heater (but only if you have it turned on), which has the side benefit of helping to warm the battery. As for the battery, it will warm up all by itself without the engine, as charging and discharging the battery creates some heat (kind of like how a cell phone can heat up while charging).


Edited by raadsel, 04 September 2016 - 04:00 PM.


#65 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 04:54 PM

Why would starting ICE later in the morning be a good thing?

  1. Ford says its better economy to start right away and get everything warmed up as the battery charges - seems to make sense.  Its going to start at some point - all the energy comes from the ICE (NRGs excepted - that's another forum!).  Someone may have a driving scenario that leads to better MPG with a late start but think it would be a very special case - and hard to prove.
  2. The transmission gets lubricated sooner.
  3. You get heat sooner (if that's what you want).
  4. You are more likely to be driving with a low power requirement soon after leaving home, which means you will be using less power during those first few seconds after ICE starts - while the car is in that mode where ICE is running but the HVB is still driving the car.  You don't want to go out your neighborhood in EV then "floor it" pulling onto a busy road with ICE starting at the same time!  Bad for both the ICE and battery.
  5. The HVB is "stored" at a lower SOC.

I don't see why there is any possibility of getting the HVB to an "ultra-low" SOC.  Remember, the SOC bar graph only shows a limited range of the actual internal battery SOC.  The car will always start the ICE when the bar gets near the bottom (but the real SOC is still like 40%).  Ford has loads of data that we don't have and I can believe they new what they were doing in setting the various limits for SOC and power levels in various situations.


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#66 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 06:04 PM

The lowest SOC of charge is 32% (when the HVB is cool) without starting ICE automatically, normally it is 38% SOC when the HVB is warmed up.  When the HVB is cool in the morning if you accelerate with the ICE, the HVB will assist until you get down to 32% SOC, so under hard acceleration there isn't a chance of only ICE pushing the car without EV helping  until the SOC is down to 32%. :)  I believe from mine and others testing it is wasteful, poor MPG's to run the ICE at slow speeds, under 30 mph, because EV Motors are substantially more efficient at those speeds. Where as the ICE gets more efficient  at higher speeds.

 

I wouldn't worry about how low your HVB is when you get home, it will be very rare the ICE will start until you get going, +20mph.  It does help to keep the car in the garage. :) 

 

Paul

 

P.S. I do have a block and oil pan heaters which really shortens or eliminates the ICE warm up time. 



#67 OFFLINE   livesmith

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 06:25 AM

So it seems like the energi could be better than the hybrid in the winter because the extra battery can be used for heating which is very inefficient for the ICE to do, unless on the highway.

 

That could be the good reason for me to have an energi.  A warm car in the winter.  In the winter I usually keep the car on the cool side to avoid the agony of lower mpg.

 

It all depends on the circumstances.  Generally speaking the Energi is always going to be better if you drive in a range that stays within the EV battery range(or close to it) and you don't need the extra cargo space.

 

As far as heating goes that's also pretty much the largest factor on range...  So you might get 20 miles on a nice 60F day, but then if you head out on a 30F day and turn on the heat, well your range may only be 10 miles on EV.  But even with a 50% EV reduction you still might be getting 50-100+ MPGe...


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#68 OFFLINE   fbov

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 03:49 PM

 

...Other Reasons To Like EV+

  1. Transmission Lubrication.  "Forcing" the ICE to start earlier in the morning seems good so the transmission gets lubricated right away. ...

Just for accuracy, EV+ has nothing to do with start behavior; the timing's off. Only a long term owner would notice. 

- EV+ was present at purchase, 10/2012 

- current start behavior first observed after 14E02, the second PCM reprogramming, 12/2014. 

 

Start behavior since 14E02 (Where to look)

- EV until ICE threshold crossed (Empower display)

- ICE on but all power EV for a short time (Engage display)

- then ICE RPM rises to take over propulsion load. (MyView with tachometer & coolant temp)

 

And it remains odd to me that Energi users are so interested in EV+, when they have an EV button. "Hybrid EV+" does not satiate button-envy. 

 

Have fun,

Frank



#69 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 04:37 PM

It's my understanding that the HVB works best at about 70 degrees F.  If this is true, then, especially in colder climates, the engine will start in the morning just to warm up the HVB.  EV+ thus makes sense to me.  If the engine is going to start anyway, why not use some of the HVB before hand and later use the running engine to both warm up and recharge the battery.

The engine runs in the Hybrid because of EPA rules. It has to warm up the catalytic converter.



#70 OFFLINE   SnowStorm

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 04:39 PM

Certainly agree with wanting a button to control charge/discharge - really need it for mountain driving.

I've also noticed that getting the most from EV+ requires driver attention (just like so many other scenarios).  The last 1.5 miles to our house can be done in EV / EV+ with some care - and I can end up with a very low SOC.  But its easy to end up with 50-70% indicated SOC if you pay no attention to it.



#71 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 04:42 PM

...

 

And it remains odd to me that Energi users are so interested in EV+, when they have an EV button. "Hybrid EV+" does not satiate button-envy. 

 

Have fun,

Frank

Just a note for Hybrid users (ignore if you are not interested in the Energi). The EV button has nothing to do with EV+. Other than turning the entire capability off, there is no control over EV+. The EV button is used to switch between EV Later (identical to the C-Max Hybrid), EV Now (electric only while the battery lasts), and EV Auto (uses the HVB primarily, and is the default mode once you've used up the EV portion of the battery). Many folks never use EV Now, since EV Auto will have the same functionality until the HVB is depleted. On the highway, EV Later is recommended, because running EV above 40 MPH really drains the battery.

 

I'm interested because EV+ is one tool I use and consider when I try and get home with zero HVB, but not to have used the gas engine yet. This is the goal of Energi driving - use up as much HVB as possible, but don't use the ICE if you can avoid it.

 

From what I've read, the C-Max Hybrid will attempt to use EV when it can. It is just that the battery is so much smaller.



#72 OFFLINE   livesmith

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 09:23 AM

 

And it remains odd to me that Energi users are so interested in EV+, when they have an EV button. "Hybrid EV+" does not satiate button-envy. 

 

Have fun,

Frank

 

I think you're under the assumption that either:

A) Energi owners always return home before they've exhausted the "EV Portion" of the battery

or

B) Energi owners can force the car into EV mode even when we're in "hybrid mode."

 

Just FYI, Assuming you start out with a full charge on an Energi you've basically got maybe 10-30 miles of "EV" range which for the most part you can use now or later(this is EV Later mode, it just allows you to say "OK, use my current 90% SOC as the mid point for hybrid mode) as you choose.

 

But once you've used up that portion of the battery and it drops below 0% you are dumped into "hybrid mode" which I believe works just like the hybrid model.  At that point there is no EV button anymore("Not available" is what it tells you).  The only way out of that mode is pretty much managing to find at least several miles of downhill to recharge and bump you back into the EV portion of the battery.

 

So, for people like myself who drive 13 miles to work on EV, don't have a place to recharge and then head back and maybe 5 miles in I run out of battery I'm back into hybrid mode just like you and EV+ kicks in for that last bit home.  Though given my house is about midpoint on a hill it doesn't really work very well.  I usually just end up with a mostly full hybrid portion before I plug it in.  Or coming from the other direction it's still too much of a hill for it to keep from starting the ICE.



#73 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 09:53 AM

Just curious does plugging in charge Hybrid portion too? :) 

 

Paul 



#74 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 01:49 PM

Just curious does plugging in charge Hybrid portion too? :)

 

Paul 

Yes, as well as the 12v battery. The HVB is one big battery, not divided. When you go to EV Later, it "reserves" a portion of the HVB with the same amount of KWh as the standard Hybrid - at whatever level the HVB happens to be.

 

Another thing it does while plugged in is that it balances the battery cells. I don't know if it has been reported for the C-Max, but my Escape Hybrid use to go into a state where it charged up to around 90% SOC, then discharged to 30%. This was to allow the computer to determine the current capability of the HVB. It happened three times in the 80K I had my FEH.

 

EDIT: now that I think of it, I think it went to 30%, then up to 90%, then back to normal. It has been a couple of years...

 

Not sure if that is still happening with the C-Max hybrid - it would not be necessary with the Energy, because it can determine the charge levels easily any time it wants.

 

If it happens on the road you probably wouldn't notice it. It was quite obvious when monitoring the FEH with a ScanGuage II on city streets.


Edited by stevedebi, 06 September 2016 - 01:50 PM.


#75 OFFLINE   livesmith

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 01:53 PM

Just curious does plugging in charge Hybrid portion too? :)

 

Paul 

 

Yeah, it's just one big battery that's split in software.

 

So, on an Energi if you're down in hybrid mode, you might be around 15% actual SOC on the battery. You plug in and you'll fill up the hybrid battery and maybe be at 20% actual SOC, and the car will then show you as having reached 0% of the EV portion of the battery.  Then it continues until it gets to 100% which is about 95% actual SOC.








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