djc

Yes, I am in the land of the midday-only sun, near the North Shore. I haven't heard the damnable noise yet this season; sorry you have been plagued. I like the car - quiet normally, pretty quick, easy to enter, good visibility, and fun. At 30k miles C-minn goes in for oil change and recalls tomorrow, including 12 volt battery check and firmware updates. If the noise is (in part) a body panel resonating to an engine or transmission vibration, it may be sensitive to not just temperature and rpm but slight variations in how the car was assembled - a minor change in weld size or panel positions prior to welding or bolt tightness etc. might make a big difference. Related (maybe): I have a Samsung tv that developed a loud resonant buzzing noise near the speakers after I moved it. Noise shows up when sound volume is cranked a bit. A wedge of cardboard slipped in a case seam near the speakers in just the right position cures it completely. Big irritation, cheap fix, but requires experimentation. As noise season progresses and temps fall, I may try applying pressure to panels in passenger foot well (back, left side, floor) using tension shower curtain rods or similar. And I may try mics, and/or temporarily disabling ANC by pulling the fuse in back compartment (I converted a fuse into a plug by clipping the fuse link, and have gathered the parts to turn it into a switch, but haven't actually got it together and in the car yet). Seems to me car makers like Ford should have a kit to track down noises / rattles etc. consisting of an array of mics and a recorder. Owner complains, dealier installs mics in suspect locations, puts the recorder in a cup holder and lets the owner record the objectionable noises. Or, if they are installing 3-4 mics in the car headliner anyway, why not include a test-mode option that uses those mics for recording noises to an SD card in the center console (or to a phone connected by bluetooth)? They must spend a bunch of time (= money) dealing with noise complaints without providing adequate diagnostics using available cheap tech.

Hybrid chevy Malibu arrives Spring 2016 for $28,645 and up. Car has clean conservative lines compared to 2016 Prius. Familiar specs - 1.8 liter gas engine coupled to motor and generator and 1.5kwh battery. EPA estimates: 48 city, 45 hwy, and 47 mpg combined. That last number sounds vaguely famliar too. 3457 lbs (Cmax is 3600). 183 hp. 0-60 circa 10 seconds - Prius time. The Malibu weighs about the same as the Chevy Volt, but is bigger with a bigger engine that runs more often, so it is a bit of a mystery how the Malibu gets better mileage in hybrid mode. Explanation according to: http://www.hybridcars.com/why-the-2016-chevy-malibu-hybrid-gets-better-mpg-than-the-2016-chevy-volt/ Malibu adds Exhaust Gas Heat Recovery (EGHR) to warm the engine faster as well as the cabin (similar to 2016 Prius (and 1962 VW beetle?), but not found in the Volt or Ford hybrids). EGHR saves an estimated 2 mpg. Malibu's rare earth permanent magnet motors reduce losses and add another 2 mpg compared to Volt's cheaper ferrous motor, and finally tuning adds 1 mpg.

I heard the LOUD resonant vibration noise last winter with ICE under partial load, only in temps below 30. It sounded like a panel vibrating in/around passenger footwell, perhaps being amplified by misguided ANC. I haven't heard it yet this winter, but it has been unusually mild. Perhaps that is Ford's fix: global warming.

Since it is "open circuit", injector cleaner would not help. It is electrical failure. Although one failed at 37k, there is no reason to believe all (and replacement) will have similar short life. Knock on wood.

Even when the ICE kicks in going up hill or accelerating, the EV system may continue to provide propulsion (reducing current fuel consumption), or the ICE may also be charging the HVB. Look for the up and down arrows over the battery state-of-charge gauge. Golfer, along with the great real vs displayed battery SOC chart, said " The hybrid algorithms can't look ahead as to future road conditions and your possible inputs." True, but this could be otherwise. Most of us drive the same routes again and again, and a smarter "EV+" mode, using the car's built-in gps, could know when familiar hills and on-ramps were coming up. I am guessing future hybrid systems will smarten up in just that way. I'd also like a "max EV only acceleration" position on the throttle, say a click, so that driver has easier control over switch to ICE. It can't be good to keep eyes on left dash gauge rather than road.

Yesterday was drizzly and dark all day and most people had their headlights on. My C-max headlights were set to "auto", but the lights did not come on. Someone flashed their lights at me so, for the first time, I turned my headlights to "on". Today I came out to start the car and it was stone dead. It was so dead it would not allow the auxilliary socket in the console to be used to charge the battery with my Stanley SimpleStart. So I had to open the hood and use a standard plug-in battery charger. An hour later it was still taking 7 amps charging current, but it started right up. My hard-learned lesson is that, in at least some 2013s, headlights never go off when set to "ON". However auxilliary socket does turn off, and won't connect again if 12V battery is too low. Perhaps this is controled by module firmware; I may test it again after recall 15E03 "powertrain control module reprogramming" next week (though I would think Body module would be the one controling headlight behavior).

2016 Toyota Mirai fuel cell car on sale in California (only). $57500, though Toyota expects 90% to be leased at $500/mo including fuel. Similar in size to Camry, but weighs close to 4100 lbs. Electric, battery in back, with hydrogen fuel cell under front seats generating power. Has one option: option can power your house during emergency. Reportedly 0-60 is 9 seconds, 67 MPGe. 312 mile EPA range. tank fill takes a couple minutes. From memory, Toyota is expecting sales volume similar to current C-max. California sales areas are mild climate; I haven't seen reports on how fuel cells perform in coldness. Interesting technology but not clear to me how hydrogen can compete with current cheap oil.

Another useful first drive report, from Green Car Reports. Elsewhere the site mentions Tesla Model 3 is shooting for .20 drag coefficient. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101047_2016-toyota-prius-first-drive-of-56-mpg-hybrid

Detroit Free Press has more detail on mpg: "...Eco model projected to rate 58 m.p.g. in the city, 53 on the highway and 56 combined. The Eco model strips out features like power seats and spare tire to reduce weight 65 pounds versus other Prius models. The rest of the Prius line should get 54 m.p.g. city, 50 highway and 52 combined, according to Toyota" As gas heads below $2 a gallon. Seems they have reduced air drag and reduced drivetrain losses. Surprising losing 65lbs would make a noticeable mpg difference, especially on highway. edit: more from digital trends (Toyota is trickling info at the LA Auto Show): excerpts: " Toyota claims the new body’s 0.24 coefficient of drag is the lowest of any mass production vehicle on the market. While that’s certainly impressive, the current generation is only slightly off that pace, with a coefficient of drag of 0.25 .... ...the car’s 0 to 60 mph sprint will remain the same (approximately 10.0 seconds). The battery is now underneath the rear seats (it was previously located in the trunk), which adds trunk space, and the electric motor is mounted on a parallel shaft, which reduces friction loss. ... 1-inch lower ride height, 0.6-inch wider stance, 2.4-inch longer body, lower center of gravity from its battery relocation...." supposed to improve handling. http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/2016-toyota-prius-first-drive/ I haven't seen any info on Prius V model.

Consumer Reports has done a first drive of the redesigned 2016 Prius, with pricing, prelim mpg, and some impressions (not a full test): http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/behind-the-wheel-of-the-more-efficient-2016-toyota-prius-hybrid Highlights: On sale in January 2016. Plug-in sometime later. AWD model available in Japan only - "under consideration" for US. $24,200 for the base Prius 2 trimline; $30,000 for the Prius 4 Touring. "Only the base Prius retains a nickel-metal battery; all other versions get a more compact and advanced lithium-ion battery." "The EPA estimate for combined fuel economy is 52 mpg. An Eco trimline, which will account for about 10 percent of sales, is rated at 56 mpg due to limited options, higher tire pressure, and weight-saving tweaks such as eliminating a spare tire. The outgoing Prius got 44 mpg overall in Consumer Reports’ test cycle." CR got unverified 50mpg on mixed test drive in the 2016. [implies that one could bump mpg on many cars using similar tweaks, e.g. tire pressure. It will be interesting to see what the pressure is on the ECO model compared to regular.] "As before, the Prius can propel itself solely on electric power, typically up to about 20 mph" Ride and handling improved; interior "vastly" improved.

Judge in NY denies Ford motion to stop lawsuit over Fusion and C-max mpg advertising claims, so may go to trial: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-16/ford-faces-trial-on-mpg-estimates-as-judge-refuses-to-toss-suit (Open trial might help answer that common question: "what were they thinking?")

There might be a C-max redesign when production moves to Mexico. Many makers seem to use a ~5 year cycle. C-max hybrid had 2012 intro so 2017 seems plausible. ILate 2017 would also give Ford a bit of time to analyze and possibly respond to 2016 Prius. One change the C-max could use is lower drag to up the highway mpg; at least try to get closer to Prius (which has reduced drag each generation).

In the U.S. Ford is ahead of world-leader EV seller Nissan (which has fallen to #3 in US); but behind Testa, the EV for the top 1%. Fusion Energi (~6900 units ytd) moderately outsells C-max Energi (5680); Focus electric brings up the rear (just 1267 units). Tesla has sold about 17000 cars so far this year; while Ford combined plug-in sales are almost 14000. (Still, these are small spuds in a 13,000,000 unit US vehicle market.) More at TorqueNews: http://www.torquenews.com/3618/ford-surprise-number-2-plug-electric-sales-2015

Ford is the fifth largest foreign auto-maker in the China market, well behind GM and VW. Ford will invest $1.8 billion dollars over the next 5 years in their China operation. Part of that effort will be the introduction to the Chinese market of the C-max Energi in 2016. This appears intended to address severe pollution problems in major Chinese cities. This could represent a substantial increase in the market for the Energi. http://www.industryleadersmagazine.com/ford-motor-co-announces-investment-plans-for-its-plug-in-hybrid-car-c-max-energia/

Consumer Reports appears to have updated their car reliability survey results. That data is based on a large survey of owners. It is not CR editors' opinions. The 2013 C-max now shows up as "excellent" in all potential trouble areas except: Drive system - very good (2014 same) Fuel system - very good (2014 improves to excellent) Electrical system - very good ( " " ) Body Integrity - average (2014 same) Power Equipment - poor (2014 improves to average) Audio System - poor (2014 improves to below average) "Body integrity" includes squeeks, ratlles, wind noise, water leaks. "Power equipment" includes cruise control, wiper motor, lights, body control module, tire pressure monitors, and more. The overall reliability of the 2014 is rated as "average". They say they have insufficient data to report 2015 models. CR says that based on the data they expect reliability of a new C-max to be 17% below average. That is much better than the previous prediction (if I remember correctly it was something like 83% below average). I believe the improvement in the overal reliability score, and the improvement from 2013 to 2014, indicate Ford is fixing / has fixed many of the first model year problems with the C-max. The CR results are now closer to the pretty good reliability experience, based on a much smaller data set, reported at www.truedelta.com. I suspect that the below average overall scores may stem from above average numbers of C-max owners experiencing problems with the 12 volt electrical system (especially draining overnight and preventing vehicle start), and possibly the cold weather loud moaning vibration noise being counted as "body integrity". Elsewhere CR says the owner survey data show cars overall have continued to improve in reliability in recent years. Thus "average" is pretty good. These newest survey data should be good news for C-max owners -- especially those in the sunbelt with a new 12 volt battery.

Clearly AWD Prius sales will depend on cost. Since robots make the motors, seems it shouldn't be too expensive - and as Obob points out, may well develop more horsepower than FWD version (that would depend on whether battery can deliver more than front motor can take), and so even with a weight-penalty be a bit faster. This might make it more attractive to power-starved Prius buyers even outside the snow-belt. Styling in pics I have seen looks like uglification to me too, but perhaps better in person / over time. I have seen pics of Ford Europe's C-max redesign - seemed to be very minor. Front grille and .... ? Meanwhile Chevy has made many improvements to the the upoming Volt (they held a press event in Calif yesterday with test drives); it will be a good competitive market next year.

At 27,000 miles Dealer replaced rear pads and resurfaced rear rotors, just prior to my purchase of used 2013. This seems like early fail. Brake noise is louder after a rain, which I take to indicate new rust on rotors. Ford wheel design, rotor shield design, and road salt and snow in MN, may exacerbate corrosion of rotors.

Toyota finally has a press release on technical and design improvements in the forthcoming 2016 Prius. Discussion and the full release here: http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/13/2016-toyota-prius-tech-improvements/ Some highlights: appears to be many design changes from body to suspension to engine to batteries and to motor / transmission. Estimated 10% increase in EPA mpg for standard model, more for an "ECO" model (possibly released later, possibly based on Echo like the current Prius C). Some versions will have LiON batteries. Seems they replaced planetary gearset transmission with "parallel" gears, claiming reduced friction. Added automatic front grill air louvers (like C-max). Implied handling improvements from lowered center of gravity and improved rear suspension. Many small engine improvements boost thermal efficiency. Of interest to those of us in cold climates are claimed improvements to cabin heating sysem by extracting exhaust heat, and more elaborate engine cooling system for a quick engine warmup. And an AWD option using a second electric motor on the rear axle.

Now it is a bit clearer why there have not been hybrid diesels in US - it is hard to meet US emissions standards without cheating. Hence many makers (e.g. Subaru) sell diesels overseas, but not in U.S. Another factor may be that diesel engines like to run, but not to start-stop-start, and will be dirty and inefficient on that typical hybrid cycle compared to gasoline engines. Just guessing, based on older diesels - counter-evidence would be diesel cars that kill the engine at each stoplight. (Other than VW/audi diesles that don't attempt to meet US emissions stardards. )

Much improved, they say. Better design; faster processors. Unfortunately MFT systems cannot upgrade to Sync 3. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/ford-sync-3-review/index.htm

Update: In the workshop manual the Digital Audio module is shown behind lower far left of dashboard, near where the obd-ii socket is. I disabled ANC yesterday by pulling fuse F22 in the cargo area and noticed no noise in a variety of engine load conditions that produced loud noise in colder weather. Looks like there is room in the fuse row to allow replacing the fuse by a fuse modified to become a plug for a remote on/off switch. Related: there is a thread on the Ford Fusion Hybrid forum about a change in the design of the air intake pipe. The change is a resonator on the side designed to control engine noise. It seems all Lincoln MKZ hybrids have this resonator on the intake, and Fusion hybrids added it in 2013 before 2014 model year production. Some who replaced the original with the resonator intake believe it has reduced noise; some recent posts did not notice an improvement. http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/8292-air-intake-wresonator-installation/

A bit more detail: “In the involved vehicles, the current software settings for the motor/generator control ECU and hybrid control ECU could result in higher thermal stress in certain transistors, potentially causing them to become damaged. If this happens, various warning lights will illuminate and the vehicle can enter a failsafe mode. In rare circumstances, the hybrid system might shut down while the vehicle is being driven, resulting in the loss of power and the vehicle coming to a stop”, says the automaker in its press release. The affected Toyota Prius v hybrid vehicles are from the 2012 to 2014 model years....

Thanks Automate and SnowStorm. Brakes: I have 4.8psi brake pressure with no foot on the brake. It does suddenly jump up (and goes way up). I expect that jump will correlate with the brake position switches I mentioned earlier. The system must be set up with some pedal travel before hydraulics get to work. A switch must kick regen braking on (and turn on brake lights and disengage cruise control; maybe kill ICE if on). Then more travel must start to apply pressure at the master cylinder. Nice to see those tire pressures. Wish: I could see them on the 7" center console screen at key on, along with some other "ready for take-off" info like 12V battery voltage or charge state; cabin air temp; coolant temp (useful to know up north when block heater has been on), etc. Some day.

Yes, an alternative would be to shut down some / all the mics. They must go to a connector somewhere. Where is digital audio control module? If it is in dash area, as one would expect, it is odd that its fuse is in rear compartment along with fuses for rear stuff? In any case I was thinking of putting a normally closed pushbutton switch at the console. Pressing the button would open the circuit through F22. Pressing the button when the car is making droning / booming noises would clarify how the ANC is / is not contributing to the problem. I don't normally listen to radio / audio so will not lose anything, assuming it doesn't do more than shut off sound system. Also I am wondering if the noise problem varies at all with car occupancy - in particular whether someone is in the passenger seat. Occupants will modify cabin acoustics and what the mics pick up, and hence may affect how ANC behaves. Meanwhile I will try to track down name of Ford noise control engineer...

Thanks Jenie. I am sorry to hear about your experience! I have now read the other long thread on the noise. It is very interesting that pulling fuse 22 helps the problem. A 2012 Ford press release touting the noise cancellation system says: "At the lower speeds that help efficiency, engines produce booming, low-frequency sounds that can be unpleasant to the driver and passengers. Without Active Noise Cancellation, engineers have to keep the engine out of this operating range, sacrificing efficiency." So Ford introduced ANC with its 2013 hybrids so that they can operate their engines at lowish rpm with heavy load. So currently I am thinking: The noise problem has at least two components: the noise source, and the ANC. Ford seems to be saying, in the press release, that the source is the engine. That squares with others reporting that the noise occurs only when the engine is on, and is specific to a narrow rpm range. Another factor may be whatever transmits the vibration or resonates to the vibration. As you and I and others have noticed, the noise is worse in cold temps. Cold temps may affect engine mounts, or the body panels near them. It is not obvious to me how temp could affect the ANC. I believe there are 2 main engine mounts (the driver side one is on the transmission), and a third connection or damper in the middle. The two main mounts connect to the main frame members at the side of the vehicle. The third connection may be to the firewall. Hmm. I will try to look when the car is up. The ANC may work well most of the time, but may be baffled by specific frequencies. It may also misbehave when windows are open (or partially open) at high speeds, worsening a buffeting noise. Also yesterday driving on a seriously washboard gravel road there seemed to be much more noise in my C-max cabin than could be explained just by the tires on the ruts. So I would like to be able to disable the ANC. I would therefore like to know where the module is. Meanwhile it seems relatively straightforward to replace fuse 22 with a remote switch. That would allow switching the ANC on and off during the noise and noting the effect. A switch might also provide a partial remedy when the noise is really disturbing.