djc

Service info is very interesting. So 4 out of 4 vehicles needed 12V battery replacement in first few years. OE tires are lasting 60 to 80k miles. 1 out of 4 needed transmission replaced (at 90k). Very little else - e.g. turn signal bulb.

I thought the transmissions were covered for 8 years or 100k miles. As Plus-3 Golfer said: "The Ford Warranty covers the hybrid components for 8 yrs / 100 k miles (longer in CA). See below for Hybrid components covered. Major emission systems are covered for 8 /80 k miles (see below). The rest of the Power Train is covered for 5/60. So, if one is buying an extended warranty because of the new hybrid technology, it's already covered for 100 k miles."

Thanks all. Big mystery solved - but what about that alleged fuel-saving rollbar?

I didn't understand most of this. An outfit named Schaeffler somehow modified a C-max and improved its mpg. However the explanation - removing accessories from the engine - seems to be already in place on the stock C-max design, and the claim an electrical anti-rollbar saved fuel was also mysterious. But interesting. Perhaps someone else can explain. http://wardsauto.com/technology/supplier-schaeffler-48v-mild-hybrid-vanguard d.

OK, some real winter here in MN finally. Yesterday at 0° the noise appeared on the freeway. ICE on, power meter at 2nd bar. Went away with either increasing or reducing throttle (which of course is not an option when cruise control is maintaining posted speed). Difference from a year ago is that it did not seem to be electronically amplified - a considerable improvement. Noise also appeared at lower speeds going up hill, under 2-bar power delivery. SO I am still thinking Dec module reprogramming changed the behavior of noise cancellation system so that it is either working a bit or out of the picture, but at least not making things worse. What I would like to know is how (and why) the C-max center engine mount was changed in Sept 2013, and whether the change affects the resonant noise.

Re: Engine mount changes, as I mentioned in 12/31 post: "Ford changed the passenger side mount on 2/25/2013, and the center rear mount on 9/8/2013 (sounds like the start of the 2014 model year production). Looks like the revised parts are being used through 2016 models - so maybe a potential problem with both those mounts in early production." So the center engine mount was changed after Jenie's 6/11/13 build date (and after my July build also). We have both experienced the noise. Yesterday I heard a very subdued version of the noise going up hill, power at second bar on the Kw gauge (= 2 Kw?), temps in 20s. What was different from experience last winter is it was not electronically amplified to ear deafening. It is possible the round of firmware updates the dealer did last month fixed the problem; won't know until we get first temps near 0 this weekend. Of course my service receipt didn't tell me what was actually done - just update of many unspecified modules. So possible fixes for the problem in 2013 cars are: 1. Module firmware updates. 2. Replace passenger (engine side) and especially center engine mounts with current production versions - or more deluxe, if available. 3. unplug ANC module in the dash (leaving audio system functional).

Jenie, What's the build date of your C-max? As I mentioned, they have changed engine mounts twice during C-max production run. Thanks. This weekend will be cold here; I am curious / anxious to see whether noise shows up (hasn't so far this winter).

Interesting. There is a coolant temp sensor part listed various places for C-max hybrid, e.g.: http://www.tascaparts.com/ford/c-max/3l8z12a648a/2013-year/hybrid-se-trim/2-0l-l4-electric-gas-engine/cooling-system-cat/water-pump-scat/?part_name=temp-sensor Some household wireless thermometers have a sender with a little remote sensor that could be taped into a water pump discharge, radiator, or coolant hose, if one wanted a cheap dedicated temp gauge without running wire through firewall. The (much) more ambitious could use a wired sensor in a Tee fitting spliced into a coolant hose....

Doesn't Engineering Test Mode show instantaneous fuel use?

"The Most Satisfying Cars for Commuting" http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/the-most-satisfying-cars-for-commuting C-Max is 4th, ahead of Lexus, Subaru, Prius. Fusion didn't make this top-10 list. In rank order, based on owner satisfaction survey questions specifically on commute use: 1. Tesla S 2. Chevy Volt 3. Nissan Leaf 4. Ford C-max 5. Lexus ES 6. Mazda3 7. Subaru Legacy 8. Toyota Prius 9. Honda Accord 10. VW Passat

Jenie, good luck with customer service. If you do have a chance, it would be useful to know which engine mount got replaced. Also, what is the build date of your car? Ford changed the passenger side mount on 2/25/2013, and the center rear mount on 9/8/2013 (sounds like the start of the 2014 model year production). Looks like the revised parts are being used through 2016 models - so maybe a potential problem with both those mounts in early production. I have just read various on-line discussions of Focus mounts failing and transmitting vibrations, as well as discussions of Focus enthusiasts who replace the stock hydraulic mounts with solid ones so the transmission moves less when accelerating, enabling quicker manual gearbox shifts (trade-off: more drivetrain noise in passenger compartment). The upshot of the discussions (for me) was to re-enforce the thought that different mounts might well make a difference to powertrain noise in the C-max. My car was fine yesterday; temps in low 20s. Under moderate engine load I could feel vibration through the steering wheel, but no disturbing noises. Fine today with lower temps (17). Anyone who is interested can see the 3 C-max powertrain mounts here (a dealer that sells discounted parts): http://www.gaudinautoparts.com/auto-parts/2013/ford/c-max/hybrid-se-trim/2-0l-l4-electric-gas-engine/engine-cat/engine-and-trans-mounting-scat The lower mount shows two parts, a small link and a bracket -- I think it mounts to the suspension cross-member, possibly transmitting vibration to the floor pans. The other two bigger mounts carry the weight of the powertrain, and bolt to the frame high-up near where the top of the front shocks mount.

Jenie, Thanks for the suggestion. "Customer Concern" is in docs from my first Dealer service visit, beginning of the month. Meanwhile I'll experiment with trying to produce the noise at will so that I can better do that for dealer service. Of course we are having historically mild winter; I don't want to wish that away. Please clarify for me: did your dealer replace the center engine mount on your car? Or just the upper passenger side? Thanks. These mounts are liquid filled?

Got the resonance noise last night. Outside temp 17°, ICE running on partial load (second bar on leftmost kw gauge) due to moderate acceleration or hill. Noise sounded like it was coming from front footwells. Noise was pronounced but unlike last winter did not sound amplified and head rattling. It is possible the recall module reprogramming done at the dealer in early this month changed the way the ANC behaves (I also switched to 0W oil, but doubt that makes any difference to resonant noise). I'll continue to pay attention to C-Minn's Seasonal Affect Disorder for clues as to cause.

Yes, in the Cmax adding a cam seems to require a module to interface with the system that drives the center screen, and that after-market module is expensive. But the actual technology is cheap and costs car-makers very little once they have a color screen installed in the dash. There are cams on everything now - phones, cheap tablets, Chromebooks, etc. The maker's cost to add cams to anything is low.

True both. Whatever the price of gasoline, I like the technology of hybrid and enjoy watching it work. Ford has done a good job with it. It is fun to try to maximize efficiency while driving, and Ford's design gives lots of opportunities. But high mpg saves less money when gas prices are low. This affects all high mpg cars, not just the Cmax; for example 2016 Prius sales are expected to be tepid despite a major (and no doubt expensive) re-design. Also major investments and new models by Hyundai, Ford, GM and others create more competition, putting pressure on prices of older designs. And on top of that a strong dollar pushes down the price of imported cars. The result is that hybrid and EV buyers have more options than ever, and a used C-max is a very good deal. It's more useful, more fun to drive, and easier to get in and out of, than much of the competition. BACKUP: Those of us who have looked at the cost of backup cameras on Amazon know the intrinsic cost of adding a backup cam is very cheap, well under $100. So perhaps it is true that most car buyers are dumb and ignorant, and Ford counts on this in structuring and pricing options packages. But some of us are not dumb, and we resent the way we are treated badly by those policies dictated by marketing departments and not engineering. For Ford it is a trade-off, but in the long run I am guessing that car makers that price options separately (rather than in expensive packages) and at a reasonable mark-up will be remembered more fondly, and those who don't will eventually lose customers. As I remember (vaguely) one of the factors that contributed to Toyota's early success, besides superior reliability, was including lots of features for which American manufacturers nickel-and-dimed their customers (AC - extra. Tinted windshield - extra. Power Steering - extra. etc etc). People notice these things. Result: Toyota climbed from a niche to major player. I hope someone at Ford worries that irrational option packaging and prices might hurt customer loyalty.

Update: 20°F on drive up and down hills this morning; no noise. Drive train was a little louder than in warmer weather, but car behaved very well. However it seemed to behave differently than before the 15E03 recall Powertrain Control Module re-programming a week ago: the car seemed to keep the ICE rpm up higher than before. I have no firm evidence, just an impression. In any case, it did not make the dreaded noise. Minor rant: before cars were riddled with computers / programmable modules, when there was a recall it was very clear what was happening. "Your gas tank may explode in a rear end collision; we're adding a little bolt-on shield" or "Your tires may fall apart at freeway speeds; we're replacing them". But now we get the cars recalled to be re-programmed, and what we are told is essentially "We're changing the way your car runs; try to guess what the differences are."

Best-rated American vehicle in Wagon category: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2012/12/highest-scoring-american-vehicles/index.htm Ford has highest-rated American vehicles in 7 of the 15 categories (including Fusion, Focus, Escape, Edge and Connect); GM has 4, Chrysler-Fiat 3, and Tesla 1.

Jenie, thanks for the saga update. I am worried that relevant people at Ford don't seem to understand the problem; it has been described here pretty well and there are recordings of the noise. It may be helpful if everyone who has experienced it lets their dealer know and presents the same description: LOUD booming noise in cold weather under partial engine load, apparently coming from footwells. (I also experienced very loud cabin noise on a washboard road mid-summer - might also be ANC system related.) 20° here this morning; I'll see if I get the first noise episode since Spring. Car (original tires) has not been behaving well on my snowy driveway - turned sideways as I tried to back out yesterday.

Well, hang on. As long as the car is self-driving, maybe when you are not using it, it can help earn its keep - as an Uber cab and doing Amazon deliveries.

"I would think the brakes could last the life of the car, because of Regen Braking. I just looked at my 105Kmi. old brakes and they could pass for new with machined marks still on them and no grooves." May depend on climate and how often the car is driven. Rotors rust very fast when left wet. Sitting in snow or rain, and seldom driven = lots of corrosion. I wonder if popular spoked "mag" wheel designs make the problem worse.

No confirmation from principals, but report is that Ford will collaborate with Google to build self-driving cars. Presumably basic car would be a Ford design, with added Google software and electronics. _Might_ be a Focus or Cmax body. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ford-autonomous-google-idUSKBN0U50BF20151222

2013 Cmax went to dealer for oil change and recalls last week at 30k miles. Battery was "ok". They did the wiring repair. Some suggestions for compact LiOn jumper battery. These may fit in the small compartment in the Cmax rear footwell; the previous gen Stanley SimpleStart does. This house brand is $30 ($10 off) at some Walmarts: http://www.walmart.com/ip/The-Everstart-Multi-Funciton-Jump-Starter/46528407 User review says it delivers enough current to start a car with a totally dead battery. Good reviews. This Black and Decker is same as the current Stanley SimpleStart, but is currently much cheaper ($32 as of today) at Amazon. I believe it is designed to bring up the charge of a dead battery in 10 to 30 minutes, but not to be able to start the engine by itself. That should be fine for the Cmax, which doesn't use the 12V battery to start the engine, but if you have multiple cars the Everstart might be better. http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B014ITIV4A/

Here's the juicy bit from a Ford 2012 press release (for the Fusion hybrid, but same applies to C-max): "At the lower speeds that help efficiency, engines produce booming, low-frequency sounds that can be unpleasant to the driver and passengers. Without Active Noise Cancellation, engineers have to keep the engine out of this operating range, sacrificing efficiency. Yet to achieve peak fuel economy, a creative solution must be applied harnessing advanced audio technology to eradicate this unwanted sound. A predictive control system notes driver behavior and how the engine responds, anticipating noise before it is even generated. Three highly sensitive microphones are mounted in the Fusion Hybrid’s interior headliner – two over the first seating row and one over the rear – to detect and measure engine noise. These microphones send a signal to the Active Noise Cancellation control module in real time." “The Fusion Hybrid leverages this advanced technology [to help deliver maximum fuel economy for the customer,” said Henry Ford Technical Fellow for NVH (Noise, Vibration and Harshness) Dr. Takeshi Abe. “Reduced powertrain noise in the passenger compartment becomes the icing on the cake.” Comment: SO the ANC signal fed to the audio system has to be perfectly out of phase with the noise in order to cancel it. If the ANC has a phase that is just a bit off, it will add to the noise rather than reduce it. That appears to be what is happening. Customer can end up with amplified "booming, low-frequency" sound rather than cancelled.(Looks like (from LInkedIn) Takeshi Abe is a vehicle noise consultant hired by Ford for the Fusion / C-max project, and who then retired right after.) Possible fixes: 1. ANC on/off available to user. 2. ANC parameter adjustments available to user or technicians. 3. Option available to consumer to tell PCM to keep engine out of "boom" producing rpm range in cold weather (accepting mpg tradeoff).4. Better power train isolation - since it is a cold weather problem, seems likely powertrain mounts are losing elasticity and transmitting more bad vibes. More expensive fix, but perhaps closer to the heart of the problem. Maybe install more deluxe mounts in cars sold in cold weather areas.5. Stiffen the panel that vibrates, maybe where the low center powertrain mount attaches.6. Better balancing in engine to reduce the problem at its source. (not a retrofit option)

Hi Meagan, Thanks for the suggestion. As it happens the Cmax was in for service yesterday (oil/filter, and 2 recalls: 12v battery and wiring check; PCM and other module reprogram). Battery was fine; they claim they did a wiring repair, and several modules were reprogrammed - no explanation of what the changes were). I did mention the noise, and that it was not cold enough yet to produce it. Dealer made a note, and service report came back "Could not verify concern. Recommend follow up" I am now pretty curious what exactly causes the noise. It definitely is not minor. It occurs under fairly specific conditions (for my car: temp below 30° F, ICE and under partial load - noise goes away if I either reduce or increase throttle). To my ear it sounds like an amplified resonance by a body panel, which implicates the active noise cancellation system. Observations: If Ford had made it possible to turn off the ANC, diagnostics (and maybe fix) would be easier. Guessing: doing this might take 2-3 lines of code somewhere. If Ford had made the ANC tunable, fix might be easier. The ANC is tuned to specific frequencies; Ford did not make it possible to adjust those. If Ford had allowed the many mics installed in the vehicle to be used in a service mode to record noises, diagnosis of this (and other noises) would be easier. If you can, slip a suggestion to engineering. Service trips cost both of us. Thanks.

Thanks for the update. I have followed your sad saga. I would have been pleased to know an center engine mount change would fix it - good that they tried this; too bad it didn't do the trick. It is however interesting that disabling ANC helps. The exact opposite of what should be the case (ANC should eliminate not exacerbate noise). There appear to be 3 engine / tranny mounts - one high at left (tranny to body) and right (engine to body) near the upper shock mounts. These are big and support the weight. Then a low one in the middle where the engine bolts to the tranny. That lower one is smaller, I believe, and resists the tendency of the whole drive unit to twist when it is under load. It is indeed the prime suspect as a transmitter of vibration. However the others are not ruled out, and I believe Ford has had trouble with one of the wheelwell panels vibrating in these cars (maybe an early recall for that?) Also from what you say it sounds like Ford has been through a similar problem with the Focus. I'll do a little internet reading on that - thanks for the info!