djc

Thanks Plus 3 Golfer. There is also Forscan beta for Windows at www.forscan.org I installed latter on an 8" Windows tablet. Runs fine with a cheap ebay obd-ii bluetooth adapter; updates quickly (likely depends on how many PIDs one is monitoring). Also claims to work with wi-fi adapters. I am trying to figure out the most useful PIDs (Parameter ID) to monitor. Like Plus 3 Golfer, if I understand his first post correctly, I am interested in knowing when friction braking kicks in. In PCM (Powertrain Control Module) there are two brake on/off parameters. B001 comes on before B002 (and goes off first) - seems to indicate small and heavier brake pedal application. Anyone know if this is useful for telling whether mechanical brake is applied? Since the system needs to be failsafe, and yet allow regen braking without friction braking, I am assuming the pedal has a short distance where it closes a switch (and turns B001 PID "ON"?) but doesn't yet push master cylinder piston. This call for braking might turn on brake lights and begin regen. Further pedal pressure would apply hydraulic friction brakes - and turn B002 "ON"? Other PIDs that are potentially interesting and available in some modules are coolant temp, engine revs, and current flow from high volt battery. I haven't found tire pressure PID. In any case, if you have found a useful module and set of PIDs to monitor with Forscan, please share.

Toyota recalls 2010-2014 Prius V, perhaps the closest C-max competitor. Software glitch can cause the car to shut down while being driven. May provide some perspective for C-max software problems. http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-toyota-recalls-625000-prius-cars-other-hybrids-globally-2015-7

The "Automatic" brand obd-ii adapter with onboard ram and its own gps that nsteblay used to generate data is/was carried at Target stores. Although the second generation adapter was just introduced, it is already clearance at some (not most) Targets. It may be the smaller Target stores that clearance them now. Regular $100, clearance $30. They are stocked in electronics department, in with the Wemo wifi switches and other home automation. http://www.target.com/p/automatic-car-adapter-car-apps-2nd-generation/-/A-18828576 The "automatic" has its own iphone / android apps. It reads and resets trouble codes like most obd-ii adapters and software. But it also uploads location data to the phone when the app is run in the car, and then uploads the data to dashboard.automatic.com where the graphs are produced. The data can be downloaded to Excel or other spreadsheet. Their "dashboard" website also shows each trip on a map with time, distance and mpg info for each segment (key on / key off), as well as whether there was hard acceleration or braking or speed over a set amount (e.g. 70mph). I just got a clearance adapter and am enjoying the mpg and trip information - as well as realizing how much time I spend in the car. I wish I had one of these when my sons were new drivers. They have a demo at their website. I was unable to connect the Automatic adapter to Torque Lite, but will try again, along with Forscan. If anyone can confirm it works with other obdii software please post.

Wall Street Journal - 5 hours ago:"The auto industry's attempt to build small cars profitably in the U.S. has hit a pothole. Ford Motor Co. said a Michigan factory that assembles its small Ford Focus and C-Max wagon will end production of those vehicles in 2018 ...." http://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2015/07/09/ford-focus-uaw-contract-mexico/29918345/ Reported likely to go to Mexico. Also interesting info from Detroit News: "A new model of the Focus is expected to come out in 2018, according to a recently published "Car Wars" report by Bank of America Merrill Lynch analyst John Murphy. He expects a new C-Max in 2019."

My understanding of the CR reliability ratings is the same as Plus 3 Golfer's. The dots compare a given car model to the average -- and the average is pretty good. For almost all problem categories, the average is 1% or less - just 1 car in 100, or fewer, will have a problem (CR has a chart somewhere giving the per cent for average in each trouble area). The two problem areas with a higher percent, as I remember, are "body integrity" (or maybe "hardware") and "entertainment". 3-4% of all cars have problems in those areas. My understanding is that the score CR gives to a car does not include reliability. However a car that is worse than average will not be a "recommended" car, even if it has a high score. As LS978300 points out, "American station wagon" is type that has few members. But as anyone who looks around knows, there are a lot of cars with the same basic body configuration as the C-max - 4-doors and a liftgate. (My 1996 Subaru Legacy "Outback" was a trim version of the Legacy wagon; it somehow morphed over a couple of years into an SUV, maybe by adding a bit more plastic cladding. ) The 2013 C-max was reported as having worse than average problems in the fuel system, body hardware, and much worse in electrical and entertainment. I believe, but could be wrong, that the fuel system problem was with the no-cap gas fill. I also suspect that a main body hardware problem was with the power rear liftgate. The problems with the entertainment system are well known and have been addressed with software updates. The one problem area that worries me is the electrical problem - specifically with a "no start" condition. Ford has tried to address this but it seems it has not been cured 100%. In general I find the info on cars at CR very helpful. What I do not find helpful as a used car buyer is lack of information on whether the problems that new cars have get fixed. If every C-max had a bad battery and Ford replaced them all in the first year, and that fixed the problem, then for a used car buyer it is as if the problem never happened. So what is missing in the reliability data is "this problem got fixed" or "this problem recurs". Also missing is info about the time the repair takes. Something they can fix at a 30-minute oil change is much less of a problem than when they keep your car for a week.

Today, as we approach 4th of July weekend, Consumer Reports published a list of best cars from U.S. auto makers - American made cars that have scored highest on their tests. C-max is on the list: highest rated American wagon. http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2012/12/highest-scoring-american-vehicles/index.htm

Perhaps you could record the noise (using $2 ebay lapel mic plus cell phone)? http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=lapel+microphone&_sop=15

Thanks for feedback. I am convinced the noise is normal - for a C-max. I would like to know what causes it. After not hearing it for a couple weeks, I did hear the noise again twice yesterday. Both times going up hill. Much more subdued than in colder weather. Ambient at the time of the noise was 63°, cooler than it has been. I looked under the hood and 2 engine mounts are very obvious. There may be another on the engine back; that might not support much weight but would resist twisting under load and might connect near middle of firewall, where engine and trans bolt together. The big left engine mount has 3 bolts to the engine and a couple of bolts to the body (easy to see it - high, in front of the strut tower, just above left axle). This left mount appears to be an inverted metal cup over a rubber material. It would not be surprising if its vibration isolation properties are temperature dependent. Also it seems to have been changed in Feb 2013, perhaps to improve its vibration isolation. picture here: http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=jIef1CVUv3oazjdbLR0rKw%3d%3d&id=318519562&m=2&search=true&year=2013&make=Ford&model=C-Max (click diagram at left to enlarge). As temps fall in Autumn I may use a mic to try to pin-point source, but I am hoping a summer Ford TSB will appear that makes it go away! d.

The most common reliability problems appear to be related to: 1. the 12V battery failing to hold charge, so car won't start 2. the electronic entertainment system (not clear to me if this is specifically MyFord touch) I've seen reports of bluetooth not pairing, and of system lock-up (blue screen). CR says fewer problems after updates. 3. the optional power liftgate I bought mine used at 25k miles and the only problem I have had in the first 2 months is a loud moaning noise from passenger footwell under certain part-load engine conditions. It has been better in warmer weather. The rear brake pads were replaced just before I bought it - surprising to need that with just 25k miles. Carfax shows the previous owner may have had trouble with the 12V system (the battery was checked, presumably a load test). And had a flat tire just before trading it in. Perhaps getting stranded somewhere was decisive. But for me, so far, so good. I'm getting around 45 mpg in hilly suburban driving with some 50-60 local freeway driving. Here's the beginning of the new Consumer Reports write-up: "The C-Max is an appealing all-around package, combining the fuel efficiency of its standard hybrid powertrain with the practicality of a five-door hatchback design. Based on the Ford Focus, the C-Max packs an impressive amount of room and utility into a small footprint. Its tall stance and low entry height make for easy access, and the cabin is airy and spacious. Fuel economy is excellent at 37 mpg overall. The C-Max goes beyond just being efficient transportation. It's fun to drive, with engaging agility and good steering feel. The cabin is quiet inside and the C-Max feels solid and substantial." Later they say the C-max is "like a rocket-sled" compared to the Prius V. Ha! d.

My used 2013 was delivered by the dealer with all tires at 51psi. I drove awhile and noticed steering required constant small corrections at freeway speed. Tiring. I dropped the tires to 44 psi and it is much better. SO: if this is a problem you might try experimenting with tire pressures.

Great graphs. Any idea if block heater helps mpg on circa 10 mile trips in cold weather?

Consumer Reports online appears to have revised some of their car reviews this past week. The review of the C-max continues to be quite positive. Good overall design, handling, ride, quiet, visibility, fuel economy for its class, etc etc. Owner satisfaction from latest survey is quite high for the Energi (79), respectably high for the C-max hybrid (70) (I believe their "owner satisfaction" number is percent of owners who report they would "definitely buy the car again.") The most serious negative, predicted reliability, is more explicit in the revised write-up than before: 80% below average for the C-max hybrid: "Based on the latest survey, we expect reliability of new models will be 80% below average." Energi owners are reporting far fewer problems - the Energi is expected to be 38% below average. I don't doubt the raw survey data they are reporting. I do doubt that the results are in fact accurate predictions of reliability of new cars: problems may be widely experienced but get fixed. When problems get fixed, past problems are not good predictions of problems with a new car, and they aren't good predictions of problems that used car buyers will experience. So with that large grain-of-salt, the puzzles for me are the difference in owner-reported reliability between C-max hybrid and Energi, and between the C-max cars and their Fusion counterparts. The Fusion hybrid reliability score is now "very good" for the 2014 model, way up from the 2013 Fusion hybrid's poor score. There is no comparable change for 2013 to 2014 for the C-max. And C-max Energi owners are reporting quite a bit fewer reliabity problems than are hybrid owners. Theories?

Mea culpa, I started another thread on this. Judging from the posts, it is normal, but perhaps is temperature related. Mine has gone away since temps have risen above 70. It was serious when temps were in the 30s. Is a temp effect noticed by others? Do cars used in places with eternal sunshine not experience the noise? If there is a temp effect, then maybe thermal contraction or stiffening of an engine mount is the ultimate cause of the problem.

Thanks for the engine / trans photo and info. Did you happen to notice where the upper engine mount is on the engine? (It may be the source of a vibration I and others hear under part load and cold temps.)

To me it does sound like a harmonic vibration - some body panel caused to vibrate by something. Given the noise seems to come from the right side of the car, I am thinking the engine. I tried googling to find out the location of the engine mounts with no luck. Working hypothesis number 1 is: there's an upper engine mount on the firewall. Backup hypothesis two: it seems there's a TSB for replacing the right fender liner if there is excess noise from the airconditioner. So maybe that large surface can vibrate with the AC. Why not the engine also? (Aside - in hunting for engine mount info online, I did come across parts price lists. High volt battery is expensive, of course. Surprise was the AC compressor at over $800. Ouch. ) Since I haven't noticed the noise since temps have risen while driving the same routes, another hypothesis is that thermal expansion changes the properties of whatever makes the noise (could be elastic material in the engine mount, could be the vibrating panel). The temp hypothesis would get a small bump in confirmation if anyone else has noticed the noise goes away as temps rise (or starts when they fall) or b) has never experienced the noise and lives in a warm place. It would be disconfirmed by those who experience the noise no matter what the temp. It would be useful, in tracking down the cause, to hear from more owners about the effect, if any, of temperature on this noise.

Snowstorm, Thanks for the link to the patent! It is interesting, and funny to see the usual vague and general claims (since patent holders always want the broadest possible application, even though they are using the technology in a very specific application). Thus the constant use of "may" - the vehicle may have an engine, may have a motor, etc. etc. Here's a relevant passage: "... light pedal applies may cause the engine 12 to start because, in the EV mode, future vehicle operating conditions may be unknown. Moreover, the vehicle 10 may not know the time or distance to a final destination. Thus, the engine 12 may start due to relatively light pressure applied to the accelerator pedal 60, with relatively little time or distance remaining until the final destination is reached (e.g., ignition is shut off). For example, a relatively light pedal application may cause the engine 12 to start despite the vehicle 10 being in a parking lot or driveway of the final destination, or otherwise within a relatively short distance from the final destination. A driver may perceive starting the engine 12 in a parking lot as a poor or inefficient use of fuel." So Ford's goal, according to the patent app, is to avoid driver perception that the vehicle is inefficient because (their examples) it cranks up the engine in a parking lot or in your driveway. But the key larger idea, in the first quoted sentence, is that an EV system "may" (= will) operate suboptimally if the system does not know what power demands will be needed in future on the current route. So you need a forward-looking system. Ford's EV+ just remembers frequent "key-off" places, and so can avoid starting the engine just prior to a known stop (within 200 meters, says a late 2012 Ford press release about Ken Frederick's design). That's a tiny distance compared to what we drive, and really is just parking lot situations. My C-max does fine in my driveway. No complaints. But much bigger savings are possible from anticipating hills. A 3600lb weight rolling down a long hill = free energy. For a 1000 ft hill the energy is about 1.4 kwh, which happens to be the full capacity of the C-max battery. That will be wasted if the control system, in its ignorance, charges the drive battery fully on the way to the edge of the descent.

Kostby, Thanks for the manual pointer. I read through it when I got the car; will revisit. I just wanted EV+ to do something interesting. Running on EV for the last 2 low speed level blocks as I return home isn't interesting. Hence the disappointment. I also like to know how the things I buy work. Some companies provide a lot of useful information; others don't. I did find a useful (to me) description of hybrid start-up operation at the Prius wiki: http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive_%28HSD%29 Some of that likely applies to Ford's simlar drive system. I'll pay more attention to the noises and stages of C-max startup and try to understand it better. Of course, Ford could just make the info available. Maybe they do, for their techs.

Podivin, I think that's a different exciting noise, with its own TSB. Mine is definitely an "all-windows-closed" (cold weather) noise, and at lower speeds. I've heard a buffeting noise in other cars when windows are down at certain speeds - seems to be basic physics: at speed with windows (partially?) open the car acts like a beer bottle with someone blowing across the open end. Perhaps the Ford noise-canceling system can make it worse under certain circumstances. The other noise is at relatively low-speeds with all windows up - and is more alarming.

I am owner since April of a 2013 C-max with 26,000 miles. Shortly after buying the car I experienced a loud moaning-groaning noise under part-load conditions (acceleration or ascending a hill). The noise would diminish if I either let up on the throttle or used heavier throttle. Speed also seems to matter - seems loudest between 20 and 40 mph. Noise appears to be coming from passenger footwell. There is a TSB for the noise. The official remedy for the "concern" is to check the noise-cancelling audio system. I have the impression from forum discussion that this does not generally fix the problem. I have run the first bit of the remedy myself (running a self-check on the speakers). Also it is clear it doesn't get to the source of the noise, it simply tries to mask it. In any case, I haven't noticed the noise in the past couple weeks as temps have risen into the 70s here. So I am wondering if this problem is temp sensitive, and whether the noise is seasonal or affects only cars in colder places? And of course I am curious if anyone has a theory as to what actually causes the noise (seems to be a panel vibrating, and seems to be on right side, so engine related)?

Perhaps it is very sensitive to temp? Yesterday was the first time in a while that I left the house with temps over 70. No ICE. Whereas previous several first trips when it was cooler the ICE started immediately or soon. I don't think there was any interesting difference in charge state. I don't suppose Ford actually tells customers how it is supposed to work? The only tiny bit of info on the control system that I have come across is the max mph on EV, which was apparently raised from 62 to 85 by a software update (?). But I haven't seen any other details on how the system works. And even with the 62 to 85 bump, I saw no info from Ford on why it was set to 62 to begin with, and what the trade-offs are with various set-points. I am _guessing_ the trade-off in allowing a much higher EV mph is motor and maybe transmission life. I for one would appreciate being given more information and more control over the trade-offs as they apply to my particular situation and goals. Does the Ford workshop manual contain information on how the control system works? (For example, what triggers ICE operation and cut-off, what exactly eco-cruise does, etc.) Is there somewhere else to look (assuming I can't get into the vast store of Ford technical documents that the Chinese doubtless have)?

Thanks to Golfer, Raadsel and Snowstorm for helpful replies. I am with Snowstorm in being skeptical that it would cost much to make the car smarter about terrain. As far as I can see it is entirely a software issue - gps is in the car, along with an angle sensor. Microprocessors cost next to nothing and there are tons of them in the car already. The car doesn't need altitude info - as I mentioned, many including me travel the same 2-3 routes (commute, shopping) again and again. So the car just needs to remember where the slopes are on routes it has already traveled. And even if the car couldn't detect inclines and declines with a dedicated sensor it can be calculated from the hp needed to achieve / hold a given velocity. I will try to be patient, but I am not getting younger. And tempering optimism about the probability of Ford innovating here is the thought: who would you expect to be the leader in driverless car technology, Ford, the car company, or an internet search and advertising company? Again, I really like the C-max. I wanted a big bump-up in technology from the first generation Subaru Forester I had been driving for years and I got it. But that whets the appetite for fully realizing the possibilities.

I bought a used 2013 C-max hybrid SE 2 months ago. Really like the car overall. Fun to drive. Getting just over 45mpg in mostly suburban driving with some 55-65mph freeway driving. BUT the EV+ feature is truly disappointing. First it comes on just 2 short blocks from home. So near as I can tell it is totally ineffective. Is that normal? The gap between what EV+ does and what it could do is what irritates me every time I leave the house. Like many of us I drive the same routes again and again. I live a relatively flat mile from a long steep decline. As I leave home with a mostly charged battery (and climate control off) my C-max insists on running the engine and charging the battery to near the top. Hence when I arrive at the long down slope, one full of potential energy, the battery is fully charged! What a waste. I go down hill riding the brakes or using "hill assist" engine braking, wasting energy - including energy used gnashing teeth. This is how it could be: the car knows the local terrain and takes the hills into account to optimize energy conservation. In particular it should run on EV as much as possible before descending hills. (Likely before ascending on my return trip also, as the engine will be need to run to ascend and might as well be charging as it runs.) As an alternative, why isn't there (or is there one I am missing?) an "EV-now" option on the hybrids, so one could manually keep it running EV as one approaches a large downhill run or an extended decelleration? It is interesting to have a car that decides when/if to run the engine, but then it needs to be really smart about it or else give the option of a bit of control to drivers that want that. And why isn't there (or is there?) a button to get it to accelerate at the max rate the battery can do without causing the engine to start? It is difficult, and maybe dangerous, to feather the throttle while watching the Empower display trying to stay just under the power demand threshhold that causes the engine to kick in.