hybridbear

That’s really helpful, but that info kinda looks like a gas C-Max from Europe...I looked under the hood at my parents’ C-Max & I think the engine in the diagram might be a 2.0L 4 cyl engine from a European gas C-Max. That was the challenge I had in searching that prompted me to come here, every result I found online was about gas C-Maxes from Europe. 

Has anyone had fault code P0171 before? My parents' 2013 C-Max Energi just ran out of warranty 3 weeks ago. They had bought a 7 year Ford extended warranty for it. And now basically every time the engine comes on it throws this fault code. It would be nice to have some idea of what is failing versus having to spend a lot of money to have Ford diagnose & repair it. Thanks!

The coolant temp gauge display does not show a blue thermometer on my C-max when coolant is cold, contrary to the manual and online vids.  Perhaps this went away in some module firmware update.

 

My 2013 factory block heater quit working this week.  I am hoping it is just the connector at the heater.  In any case it should be under warranty (build 7/2013). 

The changing color thermometer on the dash was removed in the software update that increased the max EV speed to 85 MPH. This software update also changed the operation of the ICE when the coolant is at colder temps which would have necessitated a change in the programming of the blue thermometer.

 

My parents' C-Max Energi started showing the wrench icon recently. The wrench icon would only appear when they turned on the heat while driving in EV mode & used the electric coolant heater. I checked for codes with FORScan and didn't find anything really telling. They took their C-Max to the dealer & the dealer determined that the block heater was leaking. It was replaced under warranty and they have not had the wrench light since. I have not had the chance to see if they have confirmed that the new EBH works, though.

So I bought a new to me C Max hybrid 2013 with 32K miles on it. My first tank the computer says i got 28 MPG-- i was just able to get it to 30 MPG with some decent hypermiling...coating through stops, super slow starts,  and gliding....this is just insane! I bought this expecting a MINIMUM of 40 mpg, I am so disappointed. I drive 5 miles 4 times a day. 35-45 MPH streets.

 

I used to get 30 mpg with my 2003 pontiac vibe, which had a 1500lb tow capacity...

I highly doubt that you got 30 MPG in your Vibe in the winter under these exact same driving conditions. All the suggestions above are excellent. As has been often reported, hybrids are very sensitive to driving style, temperature & other factors for fuel economy. Since the ICE doesn't run all the time, any factors that make it run more (like cold weather, high heat settings, etc) will have a big impact on MPG compared to the effect of cold weather or using the heat in a car where the ICE runs all the time.

From all you've said it sounds like the lifetime braking score may indeed include all braking activity, not just complete stops(?).

Correct, all braking activity. But, I don't think coasting without touching any pedal is counted.

From the Workshop Manual:

Brake Modes
Because much of the brake torque required to stop the vehicle can be achieved through regenerative braking, it is not always necessary for the conventional friction brakes to be applied. The brake pedal uses a pedal feel simulator that acts against a curved bracket to give the driver a simulated pedal resistance as the brake pedal is applied. The ABS module uses the driver input on the brake pedal, wheel speed sensor input and the lateral deceleration messages from the RCM to determine the amount of deceleration the driver is requesting and which brake mode is necessary.

Regenerative Braking Mode
The ABS module determines the amount of braking torque necessary and sends that info to the PCM along with the current threshold for ABS intervention. The PCM determines how much braking torque the electric motor can provide based on High Voltage Traction Battery (HVTB) state-of-charge and sends this information back to the ABS module. At the same time, the electric motor is switched to a generator which supplies the determined amount of braking torque. Based on the amount of braking torque the PCM can deliver, the ABS module determines whether it is necessary to apply the friction brakes or if the brake torque from the electric motor is sufficient to safely stop the vehicle.

Friction Braking Mode
Under some circumstances, the brake torque generated by the electric motor is insufficient to bring the vehicle to a safe, controlled stop and requires the assistance of the conventional friction brakes. Additionally, the state-of-charge in the High Voltage Traction Battery (HVTB) may not allow for regenerative braking to take place or the vehicle may be experiencing an ABS , stability control event.

In these instances, the ABS module activates a mechanical relay which supplies power to a solid state relay that activates a vacuum pump. At the same time, the ABS module sends a PWM voltage to a solenoid mounted on the brake booster. The solenoid allows vacuum from the vacuum pump to enter the brake booster which moves the booster push rod and applies the conventional brakes.

During certain braking events, the friction brakes can be applied directly by the driver. The brake booster push rod is equipped with an adjustable stop, once the brake pedal travels far enough to engage the stop, the brake booster push rod is forced into the master cylinder and the conventional friction brakes are applied.

Supplemental Braking Assist
In addition to preventing wheel lock up during braking events, the ABS module also provides supplemental hydraulic brake assist through the use of the hydraulic pump motor and the HCU . The ABS module continually monitors the vacuum in the brake booster through the use of a vacuum sensor. When the vacuum sensor indicates vacuum is below a predetermined level during a braking event or if the driver attempts to stop the vehicle with a low vacuum condition in the brake booster, the ABS module activates the hydraulic pump motor in the HCU to assist with vehicle braking.

Electronic Brake Force Distribution (EBD)
On initial application of the brake pedal, full pressure is applied to the rear brakes. The ABS module then uses wheel speed sensor inputs to evaluate rear wheel slip. Once the rear wheel slip exceeds a predetermined threshold, the ABS module commands the HCU to close the appropriate isolation valves to hold the rear brake pressure constant while allowing the front brake pressure to build. This creates a balanced braking condition between the front and rear wheels. If the rear wheel slip continues and exceeds a second predetermined threshold, the ABS module commands the HCU to open the dump valves to decrease the rear brake pressure and allow the rear wheels to recover. A slight bump sensation may be felt in the brake pedal when EBD is active.

If the ABS is disabled due to a DTC being present in the ABS module, EBD continues to function unless the DTC is for wheel speed sensors or the HCU . When EBD is disabled, the ABS warning indicator, the red brake warning indicator and sliding car icon illuminate.

 

From another section about the IPC:

Brake Coach Gauge

The brake coach gauge is a virtual gauge that appears after the vehicle has come to a complete stop. It coaches the driver to brake in a manner which maximizes the amount of energy returned through the regenerative braking system. The percent displayed is an indication of the regenerative braking efficiency with 100% representing the maximum amount of energy recovery. The brake coach gauge can be enabled or disabled through the message center settings.

The IPC uses 3 messaged inputs to display the brake coach gauge. The first is the regenerative braking status, the second is the request to display the braking event feedback and the third is the amount of energy recaptured. The IPC receives the regenerative braking active and brake event data messages from the GWM over the High Speed Controller Area Network 3 (HS3-CAN). The GWM receives the regenerative braking active and brake event data messages from the PCM over the High Speed Controller Area Network 1 (HS1-CAN).

 

Energy Coach Message Center Display

The IPC provides a message center display to provide energy coaching information to the driver related to the specific driving performance of vehicle acceleration, braking, and vehicle cruising speed. The display uses 2 unique color appearances to indicate good performance or of improvement potential. Blue indicates good and orange indicates areas for improvement.

The IPC receives the energy coaching data from the GWM over the High Speed Controller Area Network 3 (HS3-CAN). The GWM receives the energy coaching data from the SOBDMC over the High Speed Controller Area Network 1 (HS1-CAN).

I'm curious about the lifetime brake score.  Does it average in ALL braking - even when you don't come to a stop and get a score displayed?  Also I expect you can brake hard (friction brakes) down to, say, 10 mph then let off for a second and brake gently to a stop and still get a 100% score.  Maybe the "lifetime" score isn't what we think it is. ;)

I'm pretty sure you are going to get a terrible brake score if you use friction brakes, I know I have. OUCH! I think it only counts complete stops. I'm not sure if friction braking takes over when you start charging HVB faster than it can charge.

Anytime you brake, the data is counted for the Trip Summary Brake Score. The Brake Score that appears on the dash is as described above, it's only for braking events where you come to a complete stop. You can do an experiment to understand. Turn your car on & accelerate. Now brake hard, but don't come to a complete stop. Now accelerate again & brake gently so that you get a 100% Brake Score showing when you stop. Now turn off your car & check out your Trip Summary Brake Score. It will not be 100%. I've had many trips where every time I come to a complete stop I see 100% Brake Score, but at the end of the trip my Trip Summary Brake Score is 99%. This means that somewhere I braked hard enough to engage the friction brakes early, but it wasn't a complete stop so I didn't see the percentage displayed.

 

It's also been previously discussed that all 100% Brake Scores are not created equally. 100% just means you got the most energy possible based on how your braked. But, larryh has shown with his experiments that braking efficiency varies based on motor RPM (dependent on wheel speed) and motor power (how many kW are being generated). 100% just means you didn't engage the friction brakes any more than absolutely necessary.

 

The car will also engage the friction brakes instead of regen if you're braking & turning at the same time. When you're turning & the wheel speed varies, the car needs to brake each wheel with different amounts of force. Since regen braking occurs at the axle, it can't put differing levels of torque on each wheel.

Have you updated it since 14E02? That's when I first noticed this change on start-up. And I have an warm-up operating mode you don't list.

No, that's the problem. We have an Energi now & we only use the ICE on long trips. We've never started our Energi cold with a depleted HVB & it's been a couple years since we had the FFH now.

It does appear that Ford is planning on updating the powertrain and trying some new ideas. For example, we know of a 2017 C-Max Energi concept car that would include solar energy panels on the roof. While I can see some challenges to implement (such as weight of the solar panel), it does show that Ford is working on improving their hybrid technology. I've got to admit, this type of solar paneled car could help me -- depending on the effectiveness/durability of the solar panel. My car sits outside much of the time, so I could likely run it a fair amount electric only without needing to plug the car in.

 

I'll agree, if the 2017 hybrid drive trains are announced and little has changed, then we will have reasons to complain. However, the mere fact they didn't talk about the drive trains for the hybrids would seem to support the idea Ford is making updates, just that the updates weren't quite ready to be announced.

Issue # 1

Ford's definition of "electrified" includes 48V stop start systems. They have indicated that the majority of their 13 new EVs by 2020 will just be those vehicles. See this article.

The term "electrified" vehicles include not only battery-electric and plug-in hybrid cars, but also conventional hybrids and even 48-Volt "hybrids"--effectively powerful start-stop systems with more features.

...

Of those 13, analysts suggest, one might be a new battery-electric model, two to four might be plug-in hybrids, and the balance could be split among conventional hybrids and cars with 48-Volt systems.

Issue #2

Ford is not improving the EV range of the 2017+ Energi powertrain. See this article.

 

...electric-car buyers have wondered if the Energi model would get a boost in its all-electric range to match competitors.

The answer is no, although both hybrid Fusions get revised powertrain control software that provides what Ford says will be a more natural driving experience.

...

According to Kevin Layden, director of electrified powertrain engineering, Ford expects its 2017 Fusion Energi to remain at 19 miles of rated range.

The biggest change I've seen is the inability to access ICE after a cold start. ICE runs, but no matter how low the battery, there's no ICE motive power until the top of my street. Seems like a good way to reduce stress on something until the engine warms...

This is for emissions purposes only & actually results in increased fuel consumption. Check out the Warm Up Stages thread for more info - http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/7408-ffh-warm-up-stages/

I just purchased my C Max in December and I do not recall hearing a hissing noise when I accelerate and brake, but for the past week I have noticed that when I am accelerating up to about 20-30 mph and when I am braking I hear a hissing sound. I have taken my car to the dealer and they said there is nothing wrong with the car and one service guy said it was a pedestrian warning sound the car makes.

There is no pedestrian warning sound on the 2013. Does your Owner's Manual reference that this feature was added in later years? I had never heard about this being added.

Some savvy car buyers have discovered that buying a used car in Canada may be a good deal;  with the exchange rate for United Statesians as it is, it is like 30% off north of the border.  Of course, if you import a vehicle, there are some additional steps you have to take. 

What are the additional steps to import a car to the US? How do you go about changing out the speedometer?

What "improvements" are you referring to?  Did you think the 2015 C-max would get 55 mpg and the 2016 C-max would get 65?   While obviously some cars get a major re-design every so oftern (Honda Civic for example), it isn't going to happen to a car that was just launched in 2013.    I have no comment on the '17 Fusion as this is not the Fusion forum.

Ford has made no improvements to the hybrid system since 2012 (when the MY2013 C-Max was released). Other automakers have greatly improved their hybrid efficiency. The Fusion is now one of the worst midsize hybrids in terms of MPG.

 

I'd like to know why someone would think Ford has dropped the ball between the 2013 and 2016 models.

The main area where Ford has dropped the ball is failing to increase the EV range of the Energi models. The Sonata PHEV & Volt now exceed it. Honda has promised that their next Accord PHEV will exceed it.

 

"Ford is adding 13 new electrified vehicles to its portfolio by 2020"

 

That doesn't sound like Ford is dragging it's heels on the electro-car technology front.  Or lagging behind the competition.

Ford's plan for "electrified" vehicles largely is based on mild hybrid 48 V systems that offer minimal fuel economy improvements. They do not appear to have any plans to offer competitive BEVs or compelling PHEVs. This is very disappointing because I think the engineering & thoughtful design that went into certain features of the Focus Electric & the Fusion/C-Max Energi are way better than what Chevy offers with the Volt or Nissan with the Leaf. I just wish I could have the EV range of the Volt inside the Fusion body. Or a BEV Fusion with 125-150 miles EPA range.

 

Ford just called and has offered a refund.

I am glad that you are getting your money back for your C-Max. I'm sorry you had such a difficult experience. Enjoy your Subaru that you purchased around the same time.

They showed him several vehicles and he finally traded his 2013 C-Max SE Hybrid with 9,000 miles for a 2012 Taurus SEL with 45.000 and $6000 cash.  Hopefully he has a better time with the Taurus.

That sounds like he really got ripped off. :sad: :cry: The Taurus is older than the C-Max & has a ton more miles. The original price can't have been that much higher than his C-Max. Plus the Taurus will likely cost him more to insure & will probably cost him twice as much for gas.

So why exactly are you on the forum if you (a) apparently dislike the C-max and (b) don't even own one?

Just curious....

We have a Fusion Energi which has the same powertrain & my parents have a C-Max Energi. I quite like the powertrain & the packaging of the C-Max. In 2013 it was one of the best available options. We almost bought a C-Max instead of a Fusion, but ultimately chose the Fusion because my wife says the C-Max looks like an old person car. However, it's now 2016 & Ford has done nothing to improve these cars. They just released the 2017 Fusion & admitted that they have not made improvements to the EV range. Thus they now lag behind their competitors & I no longer recommend them. Back in 2013-2014 I recommended these cars to everyone I could.

I'm glad you're finally pursuing a lemon law claim. Forget the C-Max and buy a PHEV like the Volt. It's a far better car.

It's probably to late to suggest this, but from my experience when a mechanic says "there's nothing wrong" , it is a good indicator to find another mechanic. (or dealer)

This was my first thought as well.

 

They continue to return it and say that there is no problem with the vehicle. He has very few miles on it and expects to take a big loss.  271 life time MPG.   My only problem is that in the winter previously I could make it to work with the heat on with no ICE.  Now I can barely make it with the heat off and no ICE..

Did he ever try a different dealer? That would have been my first step when the dealer said "no problem found". My current dealer will pre-order parts for me & they don't even try to duplicate the problems. They just go off of my word & do the procedures described in the TSB or SSM that I bring them from online.

 

Regarding your Energi, it sounds like you're experiencing a normal amount of capacity loss. How many Lifetime EV miles does your car show of your total odometer miles? How many times per day do you charge? Do you charge immediately or do you delay charging using a Value Charge profile?

How is that Focus electric working out?  Is it a good local commuter?  Did you see Chevy now has a "Bolt", that claims a 200 mile range?  

It's a fantastic car. I wish Ford made a BEV Fusion. The Focus is just too small a car for our needs, so we'll be looking for something bigger when its lease ends in a few months. Sadly there are few BEV options that are larger.

They would like to have 3oz, but could do it with more than 1oz.  You could get oil from the dipstick tube with small hose, but I think it would be easier to loosen drain plug to get what you need. definitely messier. LOL :)

 

Paul 

I was hoping it would be possible to get enough oil just off the dipstick. But I guess not. We go years between oil changes in our Energi. I should've asked the dealer to save some oil when they did the first oil change last summer. I don't expect to do another oil change in it until 2017.

Is there any easy way to get a sample between oil changes? How much oil does Blackstone need?

I just got a new 2015 C-Max, and the mileage is terrible. See data here.

 

I can get 42 if I stay under 60 mph, but at 70 mph plus, on the highway it drops into the low to mid 30's. Something must be wrong with this C-Max. I also have a 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid with 124K miles and 6 years on it, and it consistently gets between 38 and 42 mpg.

That sounds about right for MPG at those speeds. The C-Max is much less aerodynamic than your 2010 FFH. You're right in line with the EPA highway estimate for your C-Max.

Got report back from Blackstone Labs on my oil sample. I guess we could compare it to others. :)

Did you only report ICE miles to them as your interval, not odometer miles? You might want to clarify that with them. They reference comparing your results to other Fords with this ICE, if they think you did a lot less odometer miles than you actually did, you may lead them to false conclusions.

A minor correction, the HVB is heated/cooled on the Hybrid by cabin air. The Energi can be heated/cooled by outside air, since charging frequently takes place with the car off and sunlight can make the cabin temperature much hotter than the outside temperature.

The Energi also only appears to use outside air when charging, never while driving. Since this is the hybrid forum I didn't bother adding the Energi info. Thanks for sharing it for Energi owners that may read this thread.

HybridBear, I thought the C-Max had a heat pump that ran off the HVB.  If so, it should work without any heat in the ICE radiator.  What is the scoop here??? 

Hybrid - ICE heat only

Energi - ICE heat or electric heater, no heat pump

 

It works relatively like the prius, so typically within the first seven seconds of being in "Ready" mode the ICE is probably going to start to "prove" the engine and warm up the catalytic converter. It needs to prove the engine can start, otherwise you'd eventually run out of HVB and not be able to charge..Catalytic converter has to be hot enough to handle emissions.

The Ford hybrids will not automatically start the ICE like the Prius. Check out the warm up stages thread for more info.

 

Ah yes. That is the thing I couldn't control from the cockpit in my experiment. So even a cold butt may not solve my problem. Does anyone know how much energy the battery heater needs?

 

Still, the question remains as to whether the C-max hybrid gets whatever heat it needs from a heat pump compressor or from resistive electric heaters or from the ICE thunder banger.

The battery is heated or cooled with fans that use cabin air. It isn't super effective. The HVB heats up the most by charging & discharging it by driving the car.

I believe the Jetta Hybrid e-golf allows the driver to select the amount of regenerative braking to apply when coasting in gear ( 3 positions IIRC) Maybe Ford will implement this on its next generation. It would be nice to have one position to be no regenerative braking or at least very little regenerative braking (maybe just offset the HVB drain and no charging of the HVB.)

The Kia Soul EV & Mercedes B Class Electric Drive also have this feature. Doesn't the new Volt offer something like this too?

With colder weather, my ability to hypermile short trips has become more difficult because the ICE starts way too often even though the HVB is full and the car is moving on level road.

This is likely because you have the HVAC turned on. Turning on the heater will force the ICE to run more to provide cabin heat. When the HVAC system is requesting heat, the car keeps the coolant temp above 100 C. This is not easy to do in the winter since the ICE turns off so much. The higher you set the HVAC temp, the more the ICE must run. Grille blocking with foam pipe insulation helps. Leaving the HVAC on when shutting down the car may cause the ICE to start as soon as you turn on the car as well. Turning off the HVAC before turning off the car can help with that.