hybridbear

Since for my analysis we do not live in Cali this does not apply. For Cali residents this is a huge deal

So sorry to see that! Hope the insurance doesn't try to screw you

I've seen this in the FFH. Whenever the ICE is running the MG1 is turning through the eCVT there is either electricity being generated to charge the battery or the MG1 is using electricity to assist the electric motor. Since the arrows indicate if the battery is charging or discharging a lack of arrows indicates that the SOC of the battery is constant. My theory is that this happens when the electricity drawn to charge the 12V battery is exactly the same as the electricity being generated through the eCVT spinning MG1.

Not everyone gets coupons. Before we bought our Fusion Hybrid we requested brochures just trying to get information, I didn't know about the possibility for coupons at that time, we got three brochures (FFH & C-Max for me and a FFH addressed to my wife) and none contained coupons. My parents requested a C-Max brochure and theirs does contain a coupon. I believe the coupons are sent to certain zip codes. Even though my wife and I make less than my parents we live in a much higher income zip code and I'd guess that's why we didn't get a coupon. My parents live in a very low income zip code and I'd guess that their zip code led to them getting a coupon when we didn't.

Ford must have just updated their incentives, a few days ago the Hybrid incentive was only $250. My parents got a $750 Ford coupon in their C-Max Energi brochure. This offer is valid for both the Hybrid and the Energi models. The Energi battery is 7.6 kWh, the hybrid battery is 1.4 kWh, that means that the portion charged by plugging in should be about 6.2 kWh, other Energi users have reported around 6.5 kWh average plugging into the wall to charge. The license tax would be $7 higher for the Energi, good idea as I had not factored that in. Insurance Premiums are equal according to Geico between the gas Fusion, the Fusion Hybrid and Fusion Energi. Premiums are also equal between the C-Max Hybrid and C-Max Energi. That's a phenomenal deal. I wish MN had some PHEV incentives. So does the "Private Offer" $750 negate the other rebates that are available? Our electricity comes from coal and nuclear primarily but it's still less pollution to drive in EV mode than to burn gasoline. Nope, they are dropping right now, down under $3.50/gal currently

Fixed data Here are the calculations I've done for my parents on their comparison of a C-Max Energi and a C-Max Hybrid. Energi w/ 302A pkg: $32,969 (invoice price not including tax credit) Energi tax credit $3750 Hybrid: $28,944 Hybrid Rebate: $250 Ford Cash Offer: $750 Energi price subject to sales tax: $32,219 Energi sales tax at 6.5%: $2094.24 Hybrid price subject to sales tax: $27,944 Hybrid sales tax at 6.5%: $1816.36 Energi price premium: $4552.88 NPV of Tax Credit $3750 received 8 months after cash outlay based on a 3% APR: $3676.47 Energi price premium after tax credit: $876.41 Assumptions Electric costs: $.135/kWh including all taxes and fees Gas costs: $3.75/gal Energi EV range: 20 miles Energi estimated real world MPG: 40 MPG Hybrid estimated real world MPG: 45 MPG Energi cost per mile Assumptions EV miles per week: 100 EV Later miles per week: 50 2/3 of total miles from wall charging kWh to fully charge: 6.5 per 20 miles Cost per 20 miles: $.88 Cost per mile EV: $0.043875 Cost per mile EV Later: $0.09375 Cost per 1000 miles: $60.48 Blended cost per mile: $0.06048 Hybrid cost per mile $.083333 Energi cost savings per mile $0.02285 EV miles to recover Energi premium = 876.41/.02285 = 38,355 miles This is based on the assumption that 2/3 of total odometer miles are EV miles

MN electricity is almost 0% natural gas. Here our electricity is coal, nuclear and burning garbage. Those three sources account for over 90% of our electricity if I'm not mistaken. Hydro is a very small portion, wind is very small and natural gas is less than 2% if I remember right. The EPA has a site where you can plug in your zip code and it will tell you your energy source. Great catch!! I'm revising my math now... Another great catch! I messed up my decimal places before...

How so? Since my parents are retired and drawing Social Security and from their 401k is there a way they can get the credit sooner? Thanks

True. That's why I listed the other benefits of the Energi. To make the decision to buy the Energi they have to really believe those other benefits because the payback isn't a sure thing. If I didn't live in an apartment I would definitely have bought a C-Max Energi instead of the Fusion Hybrid. That's why I planted the idea in their head. The Energi is really ideal for their needs. The other cars they would be considering are a Jeep Compass or Dodge Journey, both of which would struggle to get 20 MPG and cost almost as much when comparably equipped. The car that will be replaced is a 2000 Chrysler 300M that gets about 16-18 MPG on average driving around the city. They would still keep their Nissan Murano for long trips because they don't think the C-Max would be comfortable for those long trips since it's much smaller in the front passenger space than their Murano I hadn't before, but thanks, it's very neat They wouldn't install a 240V right away. Since buying the 240V charger isn't a given in buying an NRG it isn't included. After buying an NRG the decision would need to be made about the cost of the 240V charger in comparison with the convenience benefits.

Here are the calculations I've done for my parents on their comparison of a C-Max Energi and a C-Max Hybrid. Energi w/ 302A pkg: $32,969 (invoice price not including tax credit) Energi tax credit $3750 Hybrid: $28,944 Hybrid Rebate: $250 Ford Cash Offer: $750 Energi price subject to sales tax: $32,219 Energi sales tax at 6.5%: $2094.24 Hybrid price subject to sales tax: $27,944 Hybrid sales tax at 6.5%: $1816.36 Energi price premium: $4552.88 NPV of Tax Credit $3750 received 8 months after cash outlay based on a .25% APR: $3172.11 Energi price premium after tax credit: $1380.77 Assumptions Electric costs: $.135/kWh including all taxes and fees Gas costs: $3.75/gal Energi EV range: 20 miles Energi estimated real world MPG: 40 MPG Hybrid estimated real world MPG: 45 MPG Energi cost per mile Assumptions EV miles per week: 100 EV Later miles per week: 50 2/3 of total miles from wall charging kWh to fully charge: 6.5 per 20 miles Cost per 20 miles: $.88 Cost per mile EV: $0.043875 Cost per mile EV Later: $0.09375 Cost per 1000 miles: $60.48 Blended cost per mile: $0.06048 Hybrid cost per mile $.083333 Energi cost savings per mile $0.02285 EV miles to recover Energi premium = 1380.77/.049875 = 60,427 miles Based on 2/3 of total odometer miles being EV miles the odometer miles for payback is 90,641 miles If gas prices rise to $4 a gallon then the payback period is sooner. If electric costs rise at the same rate as gas prices then the payback period would be longer. As you can see, the payback period is quite long. As you can also see, there are a lot of assumptions in these calculations. I assume that gas prices will average $3.75/gal over the next 10 years or so. I also assume that their electric rates will average $.135/kWh over the next number of years. I also use the assumptions that the Hybrid will get a year-round average of 45 MPG and that the Energi will average 40 MPG in EV Later mode. I also assume that the electric usage from charging the car will average 6.5 kWh per complete charge of the battery. This should be enough to include the power used by cabin preconditioning when so desired which increases the cost of the Energi. The Hybrid would not have any cabin preconditioning. If the Hybrid were to be run to precondition the cabin then the balance would shift in favor of the Energi. I do not include the costs to install a 240V charger because that is not a given. I also do not include any costs to rewire their garage to support 120V or 240V charging because they need to rewire their house (and are planning to this year) regardless of whether they buy an NRG. In MN there are some things that don't work in favor of these calculations We have high electricity costs compared to other statesWe have lower gas prices than other statesOur cold winters lead to a higher electricity usage to precondition the Energi cabin and lower fuel economyOur relatively high sales tax increases the Energi premium by almost $300However I also made some assumptions that may not be the best predictions for future energy prices If gas prices increase at a faster rate than electricity costs then the Energi is a better deal (this seems more likely)If electricity rates increase faster than gas prices then the Hybrid is a better deal (this seems less likely)Benefits of the Energi not factored in above Warm fuzzy feeling about driving in EV mode around townTime saved on trips to the gas stationTime/money saved due to less oil changesCabin preconditioningDoes anyone else see other factors I should include? Thank you!

Their concern isn't headroom, it's that the seats aren't high enough. For someone who is 5'4 the C-Max seats seem a lot higher that they would to someone who is 5'11. The concern my parents have is that with their age and being taller that the C-Max is too low to the ground. I'm looking for some information about what other owners have found to either belie their worry or to confirm it.

Update on this: the C-Max seats are 1-2 inches lower than their Murano on each side. They went and test drove a C-Max Energi yesterday briefly. They had a pushy salesperson who wanted them to just do an around the block type of drive and they weren't able to fully get comfortable in the car. I'm going to go with them tomorrow to drive the same Energi and I'll be able to help them more than any salesman will to understand the car and see if it will work for them. The one concern they had after riding in it is that it is too low. My mom is 5'11 and my dad 5'10 so that makes their circumstances different than other owners who are shorter and find the C-Max to be plenty high. I really hope they find it to be comfortable though. We love our Fusion Hybrid and I really think the Energi is a great choice for them. The Energi will pay for itself in about 2 years due to lower costs for electricity than gas and the savings will be huge compared to their 15 MPG Nissan Murano

RAFE is Recent Avg Fuel Economy I'm not sure how long "recent" is, but it seems to be many hours of operation. A 2+ hr non-stop drive is not enough to make the RAFE read the same as what that trip was. But a full tank of gas is longer than what the RAFE reads as the RAFE doesn't match your tank FE when empty.

I'm the one in the video who asked about the grille shutters and over at the FFH forum we've since found the Gil was wrong. The Ford dealers were also told what Gil said in the interview. My salesman pulled out his notes from Ford from a class he took about the hybrids and Energis and Ford published to the salesman wrong information just like what Gil says in the video is wrong. ptjones is right, they close based on temperature. Even though the shutters make a minimal impact on keeping the engine warm. They also seem to make a minimal impact on aerodynamics. One idea that we've floated at the FFH forum is that earlier build cars operate one way and then Ford changed it later on. That could explain why Ford is saying that they close based on speed and we're observing that they close based on temperature

Thanks everyone for your excellent feedback. I'm going to visit them tomorrow and I will measure how high they have the Murano seat off to ground to compare with the C-Max at about 24-26 inches. At this point they're wary of the C-Max being too low so by getting the actual numbers from you guys I'll be able to tell them just what the difference would be. Plus my dad and I are going to the Minneapolis Auto Show in a few weeks which will give him the chance to sit in a C-Max there and see what it's like.

How did you get Ford to buy yours back?

How high are the seats off the ground? My parents, however, are shopping for a new car and have almost ideal circumstances for a PHEV. They rarely drive more than 20 miles in a day, and if they do it would be only maybe 30 miles in a typical day. They also don't do many long trips. I've recommended they look at a C-Max Energi. I figure that they could save close to $1000 per year in gas compared to their current Nissan Murano and other crossovers they're looking at and that the Energi would pay for the premium over the C-Max Hybrid in less than 3 years. Since they're both retired and dealing with aching joints they are concerned about the seats being too low to the ground where the C-Max would be too difficult to get in and out of. What do those of you that have C-Maxes think? If they were to put the driver's seat up as high as it goes would it be too low for my almost 70 year old parents? Thanks.