2013 Cmax Energi battery drain due to a pump that stays on(Sounds like Coolant pump)

[13max]

Ok, Hoping someone here can help and maybe has solved this problem themselves.

 

I will drive home, park the car and I will hear at the front of the car a pump still running and what sounds like a relay click on/off in the engine compartment fuse box? The pump and clicking with continue until the battery voltage drops to9.6 v at which point the car goes into deep sleep to save the battery... My battery was replaced last year(2021)

 

I checked the codes and this is what comes up....

 

===SOBDMC DTC P0C2C:00-26=== Code: P0C2C - Electric Transmission Fluid Pump Control Module Feedback Signal Range/Performance

 

===SOBDMC DTC P2533:62-2E===
Code: P2533 - Ignition Switch On/Start Position Circuit

 

Any help would be great!

 

Thanks,

Corby

[obob]

Not sure if this is the same thing but here is a comment of Bill-N about a noise after the engine was off.

 

From: 

 

 

I and several others have noticed this.  I'm guessing it's the C-Max performing fuel system evaporation leak test(s).  These apparently need to be done after the car sits awhile so there is no pressure inside the fuel system.  There's some mention of these tests here (http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/491-check-engine-light/page-4) that may help.

[13max]

Thanks for posting Obob. 

 

I don't believe these are related but I do know the sound when C-Max performing fuel system evaporation leak test.

 

Thanks again,

 

Corby

[cr08]

That should be pretty clear just based on location of the sound. The evap leak test you'll hear from the rear of the vehicle in about the same place you hear the charging fan from when plugged in (if an Energi model).

 

If it is anything up front in the engine compartment, it isn't that. From the engine compartment, the list of parts that could make noise without the vehicle running are the vacuum pump for the brakes, ICE water pump, aux water pump for EV heating use (this is another Energi only thing), the aux transmission fluid pump (Energi only), and the cooling pump for the hybrid inverter.

 

For the items in the engine compartment, here's the rough locations:

 

ICE Water pump and aux water pump: Passenger side

Vacuum pump, aux transmission fluid pump, and hybrid inverter cooling pump: Driver side.

 

It has been noted previously, though I don't have any threads to link to atm, that it isn't terribly uncommon (and not common either) for water to ingress in some of the harnesses and short some of the connectors causing things to run continuously even at key-off. I think the most common part to experience this is the ICE water pump if memory serves.

[13max]

On 1/25/2022 at 6:56 AM, cr08 said:

That should be pretty clear just based on location of the sound. The evap leak test you'll hear from the rear of the vehicle in about the same place you hear the charging fan from when plugged in (if an Energi model).

 

If it is anything up front in the engine compartment, it isn't that. From the engine compartment, the list of parts that could make noise without the vehicle running are the vacuum pump for the brakes, ICE water pump, aux water pump for EV heating use (this is another Energi only thing), the aux transmission fluid pump (Energi only), and the cooling pump for the hybrid inverter.

 

For the items in the engine compartment, here's the rough locations:

 

ICE Water pump and aux water pump: Passenger side

Vacuum pump, aux transmission fluid pump, and hybrid inverter cooling pump: Driver side.

 

It has been noted previously, though I don't have any threads to link to atm, that it isn't terribly uncommon (and not common either) for water to ingress in some of the harnesses and short some of the connectors causing things to run continuously even at key-off. I think the most common part to experience this is the ICE water pump if memory serves.

Cr08,

 

Thanks for your reply and this gives me a good starting point. My car is an Energi(2013). Yes I had the issue with water getting into the wiring harness of the Engine Coolant Water Pump last year. I have checked this harness and completely dry so I will continue to trouble shoot based on your feedback.

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

Corby

[13max]

On 1/25/2022 at 6:56 AM, cr08 said:

That should be pretty clear just based on location of the sound. The evap leak test you'll hear from the rear of the vehicle in about the same place you hear the charging fan from when plugged in (if an Energi model).

 

If it is anything up front in the engine compartment, it isn't that. From the engine compartment, the list of parts that could make noise without the vehicle running are the vacuum pump for the brakes, ICE water pump, aux water pump for EV heating use (this is another Energi only thing), the aux transmission fluid pump (Energi only), and the cooling pump for the hybrid inverter.

 

For the items in the engine compartment, here's the rough locations:

 

ICE Water pump and aux water pump: Passenger side

Vacuum pump, aux transmission fluid pump, and hybrid inverter cooling pump: Driver side.

 

It has been noted previously, though I don't have any threads to link to atm, that it isn't terribly uncommon (and not common either) for water to ingress in some of the harnesses and short some of the connectors causing things to run continuously even at key-off. I think the most common part to experience this is the ICE water pump if memory serves.

Hi Cr08,

 

Ok, I have another question for you,

 

When I go up a moderate to higher grade hill the Wrench light comes on(halfway up the hill) and then the ICE takes over and options For EV no longer exist. I will have to drive home only on the ICE? This trigger of the wrench light only happens in EV mode and always if I have the heater in the cabin on. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks again,

Corby

[cr08]

Very likely the battery is failing under high load and the car is falling back to hybrid mode as a safety. Probably have at least one or more cells that are seriously degraded and are falling below a given voltage threshold under load. No different than a dying 12v battery under engine starting conditions on a traditional ICE only vehicle. Pulling codes when this happens could help confirm this, but that is my educated guess what is happening. High EV load climbing a hill with the heater going is going to be a significant load on the battery.

 

Do you follow the recommended battery management tasks many owners have already laid out and recommend? These vehicles unfortunately have poor management of the battery by default in 'Auto' mode and do require manual intervention to help maintain them and prolong their life.

 

Here's a short abbreviated list of recommended tasks to prolong the battery life. It's not exhaustive and there have been a plethora of posts covering this not only here but on other sites that you can seek out:

 

1) Never drive in Auto/EV Now mode above ~50mph or so. Switch to EV Later.

2) Never use Auto/EV Now on the highway/freeway. Switch to EV Later.

3) In the winter if it is extremely cold and you use cabin heat, you may wish to start in EV Later and let the ICE do the bulk of the work to heat up the car. Once the coolant temp gets high enough that you see the climate use drop to 0, then you can drop back to Auto. You may even want to wait until the cabin reaches temp and the HVAC fan slows. The heaviest load on the battery from the climate system is trying to warm the coolant from low ambient temps. Once the ICE has done most of the work, just maintaining the coolant temp on battery is a low enough load to not be a huge issue.

4) In hotter weather especially if you live in a hotter climate like Arizona or South Florida, monitoring the battery temp is crucial. The battery is air cooled and even then it does a piss poor job at it. Even with the A/C going full blast, it makes little change in the battery temp. Once the battery temp gets above 90 or 100f, EV Later/hybrid mode should be used. The vehicle won't give you the battery temp by default, you'll need an aftermarket tool to view this either in the form of something like a ScanGauge or using a mobile app like Torque or ForScan with a cheap Bluetooth OBD dongle.

 

As an addendum on the charging side: During hotter weather, you may want to set up charging to only occur overnight when the temps are cooler. The battery has ZERO cooling while charging. The fan you may hear is just for the the actual charging module and not the battery. Value Charging is often used to set the vehicle to start charging at set times. You can also find EVSEs with scheduling capabilities or use simple outlet timers (as long as they can support the amperage pulled by the vehicle).

Edited February 1, 2022 by cr08

[13max]

On 1/31/2022 at 6:58 PM, cr08 said:

Very likely the battery is failing under high load and the car is falling back to hybrid mode as a safety. Probably have at least one or more cells that are seriously degraded and are falling below a given voltage threshold under load. No different than a dying 12v battery under engine starting conditions on a traditional ICE only vehicle. Pulling codes when this happens could help confirm this, but that is my educated guess what is happening. High EV load climbing a hill with the heater going is going to be a significant load on the battery.

 

Do you follow the recommended battery management tasks many owners have already laid out and recommend? These vehicles unfortunately have poor management of the battery by default in 'Auto' mode and do require manual intervention to help maintain them and prolong their life.

 

Here's a short abbreviated list of recommended tasks to prolong the battery life. It's not exhaustive and there have been a plethora of posts covering this not only here but on other sites that you can seek out:

 

1) Never drive in Auto/EV Now mode above ~50mph or so. Switch to EV Later.

2) Never use Auto/EV Now on the highway/freeway. Switch to EV Later.

3) In the winter if it is extremely cold and you use cabin heat, you may wish to start in EV Later and let the ICE do the bulk of the work to heat up the car. Once the coolant temp gets high enough that you see the climate use drop to 0, then you can drop back to Auto. You may even want to wait until the cabin reaches temp and the HVAC fan slows. The heaviest load on the battery from the climate system is trying to warm the coolant from low ambient temps. Once the ICE has done most of the work, just maintaining the coolant temp on battery is a low enough load to not be a huge issue.

4) In hotter weather especially if you live in a hotter climate like Arizona or South Florida, monitoring the battery temp is crucial. The battery is air cooled and even then it does a piss poor job at it. Even with the A/C going full blast, it makes little change in the battery temp. Once the battery temp gets above 90 or 100f, EV Later/hybrid mode should be used. The vehicle won't give you the battery temp by default, you'll need an aftermarket tool to view this either in the form of something like a ScanGauge or using a mobile app like Torque or ForScan with a cheap Bluetooth OBD dongle.

 

As an addendum on the charging side: During hotter weather, you may want to set up charging to only occur overnight when the temps are cooler. The battery has ZERO cooling while charging. The fan you may hear is just for the the actual charging module and not the battery. Value Charging is often used to set the vehicle to start charging at set times. You can also find EVSEs with scheduling capabilities or use simple outlet timers (as long as they can support the amperage pulled by the vehicle).

Hi Cr08,

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain and confirm this....I checked the code that comes up and you are right with one or more cells that are most likely degraded. The code that comes up is BECM  P0DE1:00-28 Code: P0DE1 - Hybrid/EV Battery Cell Balancing Circuit N Stuck On and then I think the screen said cell balancing in progress. Since I have owned this from day 1 I have tried to prolong the integrity of the battery as you mentioned above but I think the hills portion I was not as good with. 

I am not ready to throw in the towel on the car just yet, will still drive it with care and fun but knowing its tendencies is very helpful.

 

Thanks for all your help troubleshooting!

 

Corby

[Ford4LIfe]

cr08...

 

"1) Never drive in Auto/EV Now mode above ~50mph or so. Switch to EV Later.

2) Never use Auto/EV Now on the highway/freeway. Switch to EV Later.

3) In the winter if it is extremely cold and you use cabin heat, you may wish to start in EV Later and let the ICE do the bulk of the work to heat up the car. Once the coolant temp gets high enough that you see the climate use drop to 0, then you can drop back to Auto. You may even want to wait until the cabin reaches temp and the HVAC fan slows. The heaviest load on the battery from the climate system is trying to warm the coolant from low ambient temps. Once the ICE has done most of the work, just maintaining the coolant temp on battery is a low enough load to not be a huge issue.

4) In hotter weather especially if you live in a hotter climate like Arizona or South Florida, monitoring the battery temp is crucial. The battery is air cooled and even then it does a piss poor job at it. Even with the A/C going full blast, it makes little change in the battery temp. Once the battery temp gets above 90 or 100f, EV Later/hybrid mode should be used. The vehicle won't give you the battery temp by default, you'll need an aftermarket tool to view this either in the form of something like a ScanGauge or using a mobile app like Torque or ForScan with a cheap Bluetooth OBD dongle."

 

Seems that EV Later is the mode to stay in the majority of the time....:)

[cr08]

On 3/1/2022 at 10:27 AM, Ford4LIfe said:

Seems that EV Later is the mode to stay in the majority of the time....:)

It just depends on your driving conditions and area. In my case personally, most of my driving is in town with speed limits that top 35-45mph with lots of lights so most of the driving can be done in EV mode. Caveat being that in the winter season I do use the ICE a LOT more due to cabin heat. I'd say the ratio is probably 80/20 ICE/EV operation. Spring/Summer/Fall are flipped for me though and I can max out my EV usage easily during those periods.

 

Unfortunately, due to the way Ford programmed these vehicles combined with the inadequate air cooling, the above steps are almost required if you want to prolong the life of the battery. In EV Auto, it'll happily let you chew through the plug-in charge in extremely demanding conditions including driving at highway speeds and operating at damaging temperatures. I'm certainly not going to badger other owners over it if they don't follow them to the letter, but merely being informative on the subject.

[Ford4LIfe]

On 3/1/2022 at 11:38 AM, cr08 said:

It just depends on your driving conditions and area. In my case personally, most of my driving is in town with speed limits that top 35-45mph with lots of lights so most of the driving can be done in EV mode. Caveat being that in the winter season I do use the ICE a LOT more due to cabin heat. I'd say the ratio is probably 80/20 ICE/EV operation. Spring/Summer/Fall are flipped for me though and I can max out my EV usage easily during those periods.

 

Unfortunately, due to the way Ford programmed these vehicles combined with the inadequate air cooling, the above steps are almost required if you want to prolong the life of the battery. In EV Auto, it'll happily let you chew through the plug-in charge in extremely demanding conditions including driving at highway speeds and operating at damaging temperatures. I'm certainly not going to badger other owners over it if they don't follow them to the letter, but merely being informative on the subject.

 

So to be clear here....use EV Mode only in the city, stop and go.  And the EV auto when?...(if highway speeds and high temperatures would not be good for EV auto)?  Doesn't The vehicle automatically takes advantage of plug-in charge in EV auto?

[stolenmoment]

One of the left-hand view options shows you the power draw threshholds that the software uses to decide when to start the ICE.  In EV, it tries really hard to avoid using the ICE.  In Auto, it'll start the ICE if you gun it, run the defroster, or use too much regen braking when the battery's already fully charged (like starting in L and stopping at the end of my driveway).  With gentle driving, it will still drain the battery all the way down before starting the ICE; I wish there was a speed threshhold at about 45mph.

[stolenmoment]

In addition, EV Later essentially puts things into Hybrid mode at whatever the battery charge level is when you enter that mode (it's announced on the left screen); the software tries to keep the battery charged within a few percent of that value.  Those of us who like fiddling with things watch the percentage on the big screen and triple-tap the EV mode button whenver the charge exceeds that value; stopping from highway speeds generally pushes a few percent into the battery.

[jonyu]

On 1/31/2022 at 9:35 PM, 13max said:

Hi Cr08,

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain and confirm this....I checked the code that comes up and you are right with one or more cells that are most likely degraded. The code that comes up is BECM  P0DE1:00-28 Code: P0DE1 - Hybrid/EV Battery Cell Balancing Circuit N Stuck On and then I think the screen said cell balancing in progress. Since I have owned this from day 1 I have tried to prolong the integrity of the battery as you mentioned above but I think the hills portion I was not as good with. 

I am not ready to throw in the towel on the car just yet, will still drive it with care and fun but knowing its tendencies is very helpful.

 

Thanks for all your help troubleshooting!

 

Corby

Hi Corby I know it has been a long time.  Were you able to resolve the P0DE1 code?  Mine has engine light on and has P0DE1.  Dont know how to go about it.  thank you.

[cr08]

These cell balancing circuit stuck on/off codes SHOULD go away normally on their own as long as the battery is still in ok shape. Usually you see the 'stuck on' version if the battery gets deeply discharged (such as running with EV+ enabled, letting it discharge really low, then sitting overnight without plugging in if an Energi model). If it sticks around, it is likely signaling a very degraded battery or a set of cells has degraded past the point the vehicle can keep them in check. There's nothing really to 'fix' here beyond getting a new battery if that's the case. You'll likely want to have a Ford dealer diagnose it if it is a concern.

Edited May 8, 2023 by cr08

[jonyu]

On 5/8/2023 at 11:58 AM, cr08 said:

These cell balancing circuit stuck on/off codes SHOULD go away normally on their own as long as the battery is still in ok shape. Usually you see the 'stuck on' version if the battery gets deeply discharged (such as running with EV+ enabled, letting it discharge really low, then sitting overnight without plugging in if an Energi model). If it sticks around, it is likely signaling a very degraded battery or a set of cells has degraded past the point the vehicle can keep them in check. There's nothing really to 'fix' here beyond getting a new battery if that's the case. You'll likely want to have a Ford dealer diagnose it if it is a concern.

Thank you for the quick reply.  My car is 2014 Energi.  Been running a week and the engine light is still on.  OBD reading show battery cell are good.  I will follow your advise like running with EV+ enable and not plugging in overnight.  Hope it will go away and resolve the issue.

 

Is your Energi still running after more than a year?  Is the engine light still on?

Edited May 9, 2023 by jonyu
wrong spelling

[cr08]

On 5/9/2023 at 9:16 AM, jonyu said:

I will follow your advise like running with EV+ enable and not plugging in overnight.  Hope it will go away and resolve the issue.

This is what you DONT want to do. I merely pointed that out as a situation that is more likely to cause this error code.

 

Now some may disagree with some of my guidance, but I feel this is good practice based on what we know about these vehicles: Running EV+ is fine as long as you do make sure to plug in overnight*. Warmer months of the year you are probably even safe doing so without plugging in. Colder months things can get sketchy. As the battery temp drops (say it is warmed up from driving and then sits overnight and cools off to ambient temp) the charge level/SOC drops. EV+ lets the vehicle discharge it really low and when the SOC drops due to the temp dropping, it can easily fall below a safe threshold which one of the symptoms can be these cell balancing stuck codes. Charging overnight avoids this because you're actively bringing the SOC back up and keeping it within safe levels.

 

I've only ever had the code come up twice on mine and they've gone away after a drive cycle. Both situations occurred after I had driven with EV+ in the winter and for various reasons did not plug in and the battery got deeply discharged. Following drive cycle the CEL/wrench light was on, ICE was on full time. After that drive though once the ICE charged the battery back up to safe levels, the code went away and the vehicle behaved fine after that. Hasn't happened since and I've made a more conscious effort to disable EV+ if I know it's not going to be plugged in.

 

On that final note, if yours hasn't went away after a drive or charging the battery fully, likely you have bigger problems and I'll refer to my previous comment about having it properly diagnosed by a Ford dealer.

 

* = Obviously this applies to Energi/plug-in models. IMHO EV+ should be avoided on hybrid models because you don't have the luxury of plugging in to bring it back to safe levels. Between of the Fusion and C-Max, there have been one or two reported cases of batteries getting deeply discharged and essentially 'bricking' the vehicle and being unable to start. For those they had to have their dealer bring in a proprietary charger to sort it out. These were on hybrid only models, just so we're on the same page.

Edited May 9, 2023 by cr08

[jonyu]

On 5/9/2023 at 6:44 AM, cr08 said:

This is what you DONT want to do. I merely pointed that out as a situation that is more likely to cause this error code.

 

Now some may disagree with some of my guidance, but I feel this is good practice based on what we know about these vehicles: Running EV+ is fine as long as you do make sure to plug in overnight*. Warmer months of the year you are probably even safe doing so without plugging in. Colder months things can get sketchy. As the battery temp drops (say it is warmed up from driving and then sits overnight and cools off to ambient temp) the charge level/SOC drops. EV+ lets the vehicle discharge it really low and when the SOC drops due to the temp dropping, it can easily fall below a safe threshold which one of the symptoms can be these cell balancing stuck codes. Charging overnight avoids this because you're actively bringing the SOC back up and keeping it within safe levels.

 

I've only ever had the code come up twice on mine and they've gone away after a drive cycle. Both situations occurred after I had driven with EV+ in the winter and for various reasons did not plug in and the battery got deeply discharged. Following drive cycle the CEL/wrench light was on, ICE was on full time. After that drive though once the ICE charged the battery back up to safe levels, the code went away and the vehicle behaved fine after that. Hasn't happened since and I've made a more conscious effort to disable EV+ if I know it's not going to be plugged in.

 

On that final note, if yours hasn't went away after a drive or charging the battery fully, likely you have bigger problems and I'll refer to my previous comment about having it properly diagnosed by a Ford dealer.

 

* = Obviously this applies to Energi/plug-in models. IMHO EV+ should be avoided on hybrid models because you don't have the luxury of plugging in to bring it back to safe levels. Between of the Fusion and C-Max, there have been one or two reported cases of batteries getting deeply discharged and essentially 'bricking' the vehicle and being unable to start. For those they had to have their dealer bring in a proprietary charger to sort it out. These were on hybrid only models, just so we're on the same page.

Thank you again.  Mine is the Energi.  I Thought of bring the car to Ford dealer but they charge $200 just to read the code.  Autozone is free and that is where I get the dtc. The car is 2014 and has 131000 mile in it.  I believe there is a 10 year/150000 miles warranty for car purchase in California.  I will call Ford on that before bringing it to dealer.

[jzchen]

Sometimes the automotive parts stores code reader displays the wrong code.  Be careful not to chase the wrong issue!

 

Where are you in California?  If nearby a member with Forscan may help verify the code…

[jonyu]

I did use Forscan and VgateVlinker FD.  Finally was able to reset BECM and other modules.  The DTC are all cleared and no more check engine light.  Hope the DTC will not come back.

[skylitdriven]

So, did you ever actually figure out the issue with the coolant pump? I'm having the exact same problem, coolant pump stays on obviously when it's not supposed to and drains the 12V battery. It is definitely the coolant pump, if I unplug it and plug it back in right away it will start back up again, but if I wait 10-15 mins before plugging it back in it will stay off. I don't seem to have any issues with moisture in the connector. Pump itself going bad?