EV+ mode in non-plugin

[Max Power]

I wanted to start a new thread about something being talked about in the battery forum, but may not have that much relevance there.

 

The EV+ mode in the hybrid will keep the car in EV mode when you are near a familiar location.  In my experience it will run the HV battery lower than it would normally go.

 

Why can't I use the full battery range all the time.    There are times I've noticed where it would delay the ICE kicking in or give me a regen capability if I could get another 10% out of the HV battery.  Would this improve mileage?  How much so? 

 

 

Plus 3 golfer believes that it is the car trying to keep a reserve in case you run out of gas, then you can limp to the nearest gas station on the electric motor.  I agree with this logic.

 

However, since I can trust myself not to run out of gas, I would enjoy have this extra battery capacity all the time.  I think they should add a driving mode that would do this regardless of location.

 

Any thoughts or comments?

Edited March 11, 2013 by Max Power

[plus 3 golfer]

I wanted to start a new thread about something being talked about in the battery forum, but may not have that much relevance there.

 

The EV+ mode in the hybrid will keep the car in EV mode when you are near a familiar location.  In my experience it will run the HV battery lower than it would normally go.

 

Why can't I use the full battery range all the time.    There are times I've noticed where it would delay the ICE kicking in or give me a regen capability if I could get another 10% out of the HV battery.  Would this improve mileage?  How much so? 

 

 

Plus 3 golfer believes that it is the car trying to keep a reserve in case you run out of gas, then you can limp to the nearest gas station on the electric motor.  I agree with this logic.

 

However, since I can trust myself not to run out of gas, I would enjoy have this extra battery capacity all the time.  I think they should add a driving mode that would do this regardless of location.

 

Any thoughts or comments?

Now please accurately state what I said.  The gas was an example of an emergency.   "I know you are talking about EV+ mode but in other instances like on the highway it's good to have extra battery capacity in case of an emergency.  When ptjones intentionally ran out of fuel, he was able to drive to a gas station.  What if the engine failed to restart while traveling 60+ mph in heavy traffic when the battery supply was virtually used up.  I doubt Ford would want to comprise safety.  I believe it's about safety."

 

What if Ford cuts it too close and there's not enough HV capacity to start the engine on the freeway (plenty of gas in the vehicle).  NHTSA investigates and finds Ford's software allowed the battery to discharge too much.  It's not always about FE.  If that were the case we wouldn't have all the extra weight because of safety related equipment.

[Max Power]

The PCM's decision to run the battery lower is not related to speed, in my experience.  Again, why should the decision only involve proximity to a particular location?  If it's dangerous here, it's dangerous there.  Is Ford immune from lawsuit because I am close to my house?

 

I'm sorry that I didn't understand your freeway example.  If your car is rolling, that is ample power to kick over the ICE.  It doesn't matter if the power is supplied by the wheels or the electric motor, it comes through the CVT either way.  You wouldn't use your starter in a conventional car at 60 miles an hour and neither does this one.  Watch the car shift from coasting to ICE with no electric involvement during your next drive if you don't believe me. The 12V being dead at this point would be much more dangerous as the spark plugs wouldn't fire.  I don't see much scrambling to fix the 12V problem yet.

 

I can see your point but there is a large difference between 25% and "virtually used up",  When you start your car in the morning and it kicks on the ICE, how much does your HV battery deplete?  Mine is not even noticeable.  It's just a 2-liter, 4-cylinder engine when all is said and done.  

 

This is about giving you range to get to the gas station, something I don't care about.  

Edited March 11, 2013 by Max Power

[wab]

With the EPA mandated demise of the diesel programmer/chip I wonder how long till Co's like Edge, Superchips, etc turn their attention to hybrids.

 

I've been looking, haven't found anything yet.

Googled "chip for C-Max" sent me to Europe for a diesel C-max chip.

 

There has to be a huge amount of room for improvement...program to maximize Highway mpg, program to maximize in-town MPG...

hhmm I wonder what class the C-Max is in at the local drag strip?

 

 

wab

 

[plus 3 golfer]

I'm all for improving FE but I'm not sure I'd want a tune while still under warranty.  Secondly,given EPA's recent crackdown on one diesel tuner that I'm aware of (and likely sent a signal to others), I'd want the tune to be "certified" by tuner with EPA.  Emissions are more import to me than FE.  Lastly, in selling a tuned car IMHO, not disclosing that the car has a "non-certified" tune could be fraud.     

 

Getting back to the point, we don't know why Ford appears to use different logic in maintaining battery level.  I know I've seen considerably lower battery levels than 25% on highway driving but not as low as I've seen in EV+ mode.  When I have some time, I'll run some tests and record data via the OBDII port while trying to deplete the battery level.

[wab]

 

I'm all for improving FE but I'm not sure I'd want a tune while still under warranty.  Secondly,given EPA's recent crackdown on one diesel tuner that I'm aware of (and likely sent a signal to others), I'd want the tune to be "certified" by tuner with EPA.  Emissions are more import to me than FE.  Lastly, in selling a tuned car IMHO, not disclosing that the car has a "non-certified" tune could be fraud.     

 

Getting back to the point, we don't know why Ford appears to use different logic in maintaining battery level.  I know I've seen considerably lower battery levels than 25% on highway driving but not as low as I've seen in EV+ mode.  When I have some time, I'll run some tests and record data via the OBDII port while trying to deplete the battery level.

 

Back on topic.

A turner could reprogram the car to "use the full battery range all the time."

 

 

I totally agree " Emissions are more import to me than FE"

 

I've always wondered what reaction you would get from the EPA if they measured a whole gallon as opposed to a sniff, what if my car burns just a tiny bit dirtier than your car but my car went 5 miles farther than yours, carry it a couple more steps.

 

I burn a 10 gal tank and go 50 miles farther than you. After 10 tanks you're on you're 11th, whose car is cleaner?

Edited March 12, 2013 by wab

[plus 3 golfer]

I believe the certification is a lot more than a "sniff" like many driving cycles on a dyno and analyzing exhaust gases. This is not to be confused with states implementation of individual vehicle compliance checking "sniff" tests. It likely simply too cost prohibitive for a tuner to do a certification of a tune when they are selling tunes for several hundred dollars even though their tunes may have lower emissions.

[Max Power]

Smog definitely matters to me.  In PA, you'll pass inspection as long as your check engine light doesn't come on.  I don't like the the thought of me or anyone else being able to get around it.

 

I still wonder if EV+ is a programming holdover from the Energi that makes little sense for the hybrid.  Programmers can be very lazy or overworked.  It may also have something to do with battery conditioning, when the charge dips lower than normal/

 

Is Ford stuck using the same programming in production cars that they used for the EPA test, or are they allowed to game the system?    If they update the software do they have to re-certify?  These might be some sticky areas for the hybrid market.  Was EV+ active for their tests?

Edited March 12, 2013 by Max Power

[plus 3 golfer]

I assume that cars are no different than point sources. If the control strategy is changed via software, I believe re-certification is necessary. For the manufacturer this is no big deal, since they likely have rigorously tested the new strategy. The question is whether allowing for more battery storage changes the control strategy- I doubt it.

 

 

The tuners try to get around the issue of control strategy change by marketing their tunes as "off-road" use only. But EPA recently came down on one tuner. I'll find a link and post. http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/d0cf6618525a9efb85257359003fb69d/0f84561e0cf2ab7f85257af6006c4dbd!OpenDocument

 

 

I believe Ford would have tested all operational modes. AFAIK, the test procedures are much like the EPA FE tests with various driving cycles except emissions are measured not FE.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Plus 3 Golfer

[wab]

I wonder if the EPA cares about tow tunes for the 6.0 F250?

You can order them with NO engine software changes. Just transmission changes.

Torque converter lockup etc. usually good for a point 5 mpg increase, cooler longer transmission life, less downshifting....

 

Back on topic

I would think/hope a tune for the C-Max to allow user control of the HV battery would be EPA OK???

Edited March 12, 2013 by wab

[Max Power]

I don't want to confuse, I was referring to modes during the mileage testing.  

 

What would it mean if Ford got 47 mpg during the EPA test in EV+ mode and that mode is not available to me at all times?  

 

Going in and out of modes based on location seems too cute and I would like the control.  I guess that's why I'm a PC and not Mac.

[zhackwyatt]

Smog definitely matters to me.  In PA, you'll pass inspection as long as your check engine light doesn't come on.  I don't like the the thought of me or anyone else being able to get around it.

 

I still wonder if EV+ is a programming holdover from the Energi that makes little sense for the hybrid.  Programmers can be very lazy or overworked.  It may also have something to do with battery conditioning, when the charge dips lower than normal/

 

Is Ford stuck using the same programming in production cars that they used for the EPA test, or are they allowed to game the system?    If they update the software do they have to re-certify?  These might be some sticky areas for the hybrid market.  Was EV+ active for their tests?

I very much doubt it was a, "look what we forgot to pull out, oh well let's call it a feature" type of thing.  I'm sure it was purposeful to have it in the Hybrids.

 

Has anyone turned it off for a tank to see what impact it has on FE?

[Tdefny]

The batteries last longer if they always stay between a set minimum and maximum charge. It kind of makes you wonder why they don't calibrate the display to not show those reserves, although I have occasionally seen my Prius go into these ranges under certain conditions.

[valkraider]

It's like a half a mile. Who is moving at interstate speeds half a mile from their house?

[Max Power]

It's like a half a mile. Who is moving at interstate speeds half a mile from their house?

 

A person that is driving past their house(practically on the highway) to get somewhere else after work.  Does the software assume you will be slowing down, or is the  speed taken into consideration as Plus3 suggests?  There was traffic the day I observed that the car was assuming I was near the end of my trip and I don't remember how fast I was going, but it was still highway speed.

 

I wonder if I blow by a few of my saved locations will I be able to notice that the EV accelerator limit is elevated?  It gets pretty high when you are at highway speed anyway so it may be tough to tell.  It just didn't seem to go down even though the battery was depleting. Is there a speed where the logic assumes you are just buzzing the tower and a passed point where the ICE will kick in to charge the battery?

[rmcmast]

My house is right off a two lane rural highway and many times I'm doing 55mph (or over if I have traffic behind me) as I get within 1/2 mile or so of home. EV+ kicks in for me at a consistent spot on the highway every time up to at least 60mph.

[zhackwyatt]

I truly think EV+ turns on when you enter a simple radius of around 1/2 KM.  Doesn't matter from what direction or how you approach it, you get w/in that radius, and it turns on.

[Max Power]

Confirmed for me as well, you can't speed out of it.  

 

One of my saved locations has a steep hill after a stop sign, since the EV+ is active I can power up it in only electric.  It gives me a real feel as to how much the electric motor is normally being limited.  You can go to the second bar from a dead stop and the amount of torque available is impressive.

 

Electric motors are really great for this, just need the battery tech to keep improving.

[ecodad]

I really appreciate the EV+ mode as I live near the top of a hill and it is so great to use EV mode up the hill at 60+ MPG rather than <10 MPG on the ICE up the same hill.

 

The logic as I've pieced together for the EV+ mode and being willing to use the batteries to a lower point is as follows:

 

1. The C-Max tries to keep the batteries around the 50% +/- 20% charged (I think I read this in the manual)

2. When the ICE is cold, it must come up to temperature in order to have the emissions controls working appropriately, so when you are close to a common stopping location, like your home or work, it is better for efficiency to deplete the batteries farther because you'll need the ICE on anyways to heat up the next time you drive the car.

 

I do wish the non-Energi had the "EV now" and "EV later" buttons so you could force it to switch to EV mode for certain things or use the ICE when you know it would be more efficient or know that you are coming up on a stretch that would be great to use EV and want to have topped off the batteries.

 

And for longevity of the batteries, you never want to fully deplete them or charge or discharge them too far.  Both the Tesla Model S and the Nissan Leaf recommend not exceeding 80% charge unless you know you are going to need the extended range.

[hanneshorn]

everybody is talking about the "ICE".

What's that?

H

[StoBro2]

Internal Combustion Engine

[Bill-N]

everybody is talking about the "ICE".

What's that?

H

ICE = Internal Combustion Engine.  Somewhere here there's a thread that has C-Max related acronyms spelled out.

 

And yes, I get sick of all the acronyms.  How hard is it to type "engine"?

[jkngale]

Hey hanneshorn - ICE = Internal Combustion Engine.

 

There's a acronym thread on here, but that one is used a lot - I was confused by it at first, too!

[jkngale]

...he said six minutes too late :)

[jkngale]

...he said hours too late, not realizing there was a second page on the forum :P