Warm-up Stages for Fusion Hybrid (by Hybridbear), applicable to C-Max

[Jus-A-CMax]

Here is an excellent writeup by Hybridbear, member here and he's a Moderator at the Fordfusionhybridforum.com, a "sister" site to here.

 

What's it all about?

Our C-Maxs and the Ford Fusion hybrid share the same hybrid platform. There is no difference. As such, both platforms have to "warm up" the internal combustion engines (ICE) as we start driving the FFH or our CMaxs in the cold morning. It is here that A LOT of gas may be burnt to warm the ICE.

 

Hybridbear's thread basically list out the stages of the warmup process and walks you through it, including notes on the temperatures which allow the next stage to be initiated.

 

Initially he had posted the link on another thread here as part of a different discussion. However, I felt it belonged better here with the Tips & Tricks section, especially now with the colder weather and our MPGs are taking a pounding due to the warmup cycle.

 

Click on the link to view the post. If you want to respond to the post, you'll have to sign up to be a member there.

Fordfusionhybridforum.com FFH Warm-up Stages

 

 

Thanks to Hybridbear for a STELLAR writeup and update.

 

 

PS We won't hold it against you for not driving a CMax although you do have an Energi so you're fam then... ;) 

[HannahWCU]

Thanks for the information. It confirms what I experience too. One other thing I have noticed and wonder if anyone else see is that on initial start-up, the ICE will immediately run if it is extremely cold (under 30°) regardless what the HVAC is set on. I always cut my HVAC off when I stop the car. This week it got down to 4° on night. When I started the car the ICE immediately started even though the battery was at least 50% and the HVAC was off.

[hybridbear]

Thanks for the information. It confirms what I experience too. One other thing I have noticed and wonder if anyone else see is that on initial start-up, the ICE will immediately run if it is extremely cold (under 30°) regardless what the HVAC is set on. I always cut my HVAC off when I stop the car. This week it got down to 4° on night. When I started the car the ICE immediately started even though the battery was at least 50% and the HVAC was off.

I have observed this too. For us it seems to be when under 10F that the ICE starts immediately, but it isn't consistent. The black FFH started the ICE immediately far less often than I've found the white one will.

[Bill-N]

Thanks for the information. It confirms what I experience too. One other thing I have noticed and wonder if anyone else see is that on initial start-up, the ICE will immediately run if it is extremely cold (under 30°) regardless what the HVAC is set on. I always cut my HVAC off when I stop the car. This week it got down to 4° on night. When I started the car the ICE immediately started even though the battery was at least 50% and the HVAC was off.

 

The engine needs to run to warm up the high voltage battery.

[ptjones]

Thanks for the information. It confirms what I experience too. One other thing I have noticed and wonder if anyone else see is that on initial start-up, the ICE will immediately run if it is extremely cold (under 30°) regardless what the HVAC is set on. I always cut my HVAC off when I stop the car. This week it got down to 4° on night. When I started the car the ICE immediately started even though the battery was at least 50% and the HVAC was off.

I have also seen this happen.

 

Paul

[A2gemini]

Has anyone tried using a heater block for the oil to see if that makes a difference?

[bigqueue]

On 1/4/2014 at 9:44 PM, Jus-A-CMax said:

Here is an excellent writeup by Hybridbear, member here and he's a Moderator at the Fordfusionhybridforum.com, a "sister" site to here.

 

What's it all about?

Our C-Maxs and the Ford Fusion hybrid share the same hybrid platform. There is no difference. As such, both platforms have to "warm up" the internal combustion engines (ICE) as we start driving the FFH or our CMaxs in the cold morning. It is here that A LOT of gas may be burnt to warm the ICE.

 

Hybridbear's thread basically list out the stages of the warmup process and walks you through it, including notes on the temperatures which allow the next stage to be initiated.

 

Initially he had posted the link on another thread here as part of a different discussion. However, I felt it belonged better here with the Tips & Tricks section, especially now with the colder weather and our MPGs are taking a pounding due to the warmup cycle.

 

Click on the link to view the post. If you want to respond to the post, you'll have to sign up to be a member there.

Fordfusionhybridforum.com FFH Warm-up Stages

 

 

Thanks to Hybridbear for a STELLAR writeup and update.

 

 

PS We won't hold it against you for not driving a CMax although you do have an Energi so you're fam then... ?

 

That is a most excellent write-up of the warm-up process, and one i will have to read a few times to internalize so I can use it to my best benefit. I am a new to the family owner of a 2016, so I have a heavy learning curve. I am also an Electrical Engineer by trade, so you know I will likely "geek-out" on all this stuff too!  ?

 

Thanks for the pointer to that post....

-Quentin

 

[C-MaxA2]

Wish I knew if a block heater (had them when I lived Upstate NYS and they were great) would help here (and if they are even available).  Just plug it in before coffee when you knew you'd be leaving soon and not have to have the ICE run overtime to warm things up.  Now all I do is turn off the heat and wait until the ICE has to run for a hill, etc. and then slowly heat up the cabin. Makes a difference in MPGs but my wife HATES it when I do that. 

[ptjones]

I use block heaters all year around for 7 yrs. and it does  make a difference.?

 

Paul

[fbov]

15 hours ago, bigqueue said:

That is a most excellent write-up of the warm-up process,

And while it's all true, my Hybrid behaves a little differently. Two things are missing.

- cold start is a little different

- I also see changes in EV available (blue outline) that an Energi may not display. 

 

When cold (not run for many hours), the car starts in EV (we agree about S0) but when the ICE starts (S1a), I see time-dependent S1a, not the temperature-dependent behavior he describes. For the first ~20 seconds of ICE operation, it's full EV propulsion with no ICE torque contributing. Engine sounds as he describes. The trick is that it's the same duration every time, between ICE start and ICE RPM rise. Winter-Summer, it's always 20 sec. It can't be thermal criteria; the time would vary. 

 

This commenced with 15E03 PCM update. He mentions the 2013 update, and there was a second in 2014, but Ford wasn't done until 2015. 

 

Second, I find the Hybrid's EV Available display behaves like there are thermal criteria. The blue outline is initially limited to 1-bar EV on cold days. If you can drive with EV under the 1-bar limit, the ICE will soon start to keep itself warm. This sounds a lot like S1b criteria, an intermediate level where some EV is allowed. After a little more engine run, the bar starts normal behavior with a 2-bar max. That sounds like Stage 2. 

 

Of course, none of this may be evident above 0 F. In fact there's some really odd behavior if you get below zero...

 

4 hours ago, C-MaxA2 said:

Wish I knew if a block heater...

Paul already chimed in; this is one reason I wanted to order a car. Here in Rochester, it should be a noticeable benefit. 

 

Of course, this January's 10F warmer than average... but that's normal! There's still two weeks left to even things out, and I'm cheating by picking up an Escape Hybrid on Saturday, our last day above freezing. I expect a corollary to the Astronomer's Curse; new cars like new telescopes always chase the nice weather away!

 

Have fun,

Frank

[C-MaxA2]

Paul - can you link to where I can buy a block heater like yours?

[ptjones]

Here is a thread on Winter driving: 

I put a link, but you need to click on pic below.  I have two on mine for a total of 375 Watts, Did have a FORD block heater which I liked a lot until it started leaking, It is a very big challenge to install one.  You really need about 400 watts to do the job.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by ptjones
update

[fbov]

That car looks familiar... I'll be removing that grill block tomorrow morning, one last time. 

Frank

[ptjones]

This site does some weird things, I just put a link to my thread and that's what came up.

 

Paul

[fbov]

It's a feature of the new forum SW. I'm on other forums that do more than a URL when it's another forum page. It looks like they find a picture to grab your eye. My link in the "Whose thinking of buying an Escape" only had one picture to grab. 

Frank, who's at 15 miles and holding for clear weather

[bigqueue]

 

On 1/17/2020 at 1:42 PM, ptjones said:

Here is a thread on Winter driving: 

I put a link, but you need to click on pic below.  I have two on mine for a total of 375 Watts, Did have a FORD block heater which I liked a lot until it started leaking, It is a very big challenge to install one.  You really need about 400 watts to do the job.

 

 

Do you think the cost of the extra power used by the block heater is worth the savings you see in increased fuel economy? I suppose one might also claim it might also increase longevity I suppose, but even that would be difficult to quantify.  

 

As to gas savings reflected in MPG, I guess it would depend upon how many hours your heater was on before drive time. Also, I would think it would become less of an impact on MPG the longer the drive was. (average MPG over the drive)

 

-Quentin

 

[fbov]

There's more to this than cost, not unlike using ethanol-free fuel. I have no idea how much it costs for effective pre-heating but I do know you'll get heat sooner. EV becomes available when the heat comes up, and the engine won't run when the car's stopped, both good things. Creature comforts and better mileage won't be free, more like a quarter. 

 

Conversely, a 1000W heater uses 1 kWh per hour, by definition. I'm paying about $0.13/kWh, delivered, so let's say 25 cents per 2-hour use. At $3/gal for gas, it costs 1/12 of a gallon to use. Then it's up to trip length. Short trips benefit most, but don't use enough fuel to pay for it. If you're getting 36 MPG, you'd have to go 6 miles using half the fuel, of 72 MPG for the 6 mile trip. I'll let you know, but I only get that kind of mileage going downhill.

 

And then there's ambient temperature... not THAT many nights below freezing, are there?

 

Have fun,

Frank

[bigqueue]

54 minutes ago, fbov said:

Conversely, a 1000W heater uses 1 kWh per hour, by definition. I'm paying about $0.13/kWh, delivered, so let's say 25 cents per 2-hour use. At $3/gal for gas, it costs 1/12 of a gallon to use.

 

So using your numbers, at 30MPG, 1/12th of a gallon is 2.5 miles. I don't know what the ICE gets for mileage during warm-up, and I don't know how many miles it takes to get "warmed up". (I suppose that depends on the outside temperature too) But you can see that if the 30MPG is reasonable, and if the car gets to warmed up state within 2.5 miles, then just letting the engine to the work is more efficient.....and the miles only go up if the warm-up MPG goes up. 

 

I have had my car for less than a day, so I don't have any good feeling for warm-up time......but to me, the important thing is overall efficiency. (though I understand that isn't as good for my MPG bragging ?

 

-Quentin

 

[fbov]

It also depends where you live. Single digits are a different driving experience. On back roads, the ICE never gets to operating temperature on flat land; you need some hills. A thermal head start really helps. I'll let you know once I get mine figured out. I have seen a picture of it, so I know where to look. 

Frank

[plus 3 golfer]

10 hours ago, bigqueue said:

 

So using your numbers, at 30MPG, 1/12th of a gallon is 2.5 miles. I don't know what the ICE gets for mileage during warm-up, and I don't know how many miles it takes to get "warmed up". (I suppose that depends on the outside temperature too) But you can see that if the 30MPG is reasonable, and if the car gets to warmed up state within 2.5 miles, then just letting the engine to the work is more efficient.....and the miles only go up if the warm-up MPG goes up. 

 

I have had my car for less than a day, so I don't have any good feeling for warm-up time......but to me, the important thing is overall efficiency. (though I understand that isn't as good for my MPG bragging ?

 

-Quentin

 

What is warmup?  When the emissions monitors and checks begin running, when the control algorithms switch to closed loop operation, when ECT is high enough to start opening thermostat (180F), when grille shutters start to open (around 194F), when thermostat and grille shutters are fully open, and so forth. ICE will run most efficient at higher ECT. So, the quicker on gets ECT to the max temp for current conditions, the greater will be FE.

 

If ones goal is highest FE, then one wants to get to the highest temp for conditions ASAP.  Preheat coolant / block and use grille covers. ECT > 215F would require use of grille blocks virtually year round even in Phoenix.  Even at 105F ambient my ECT will stay around 205F with no grille blocks. 
 

Factoring economics of block heaters and grille covers into the equation is more difficult. The grille covers will improve aerodynamics at higher speeds but one does have to remember that the grille covers may also be closed depending on conditions (see links below).   In the second link several posts down in the thread is a video of the grille shutter operation.  Also, once one starts using AC, the economics of running the compressor with grille blocks at higher pressure due to less heat being removed from the condenser may negate the higher ICE efficiency from higher ECT and aero benefits of grille blocks. 
 

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer

[bigqueue]

2 minutes ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

What is warmup?  When the emissions monitors and checks begin running, when the control algorithms switch to closed loop operation, when ECT is high enough to start opening thermostat (180F), when grille shutters start to open (around 194F), when thermostat and grille shutters are fully open, and so forth. ICE will run most efficient at higher ECT. So, the quicker on gets ECT to the max temp for current conditions, the greater will be FE.

 

 

 

Thanks for the links, I am looking across the site for discussions, and this makes it a lot easier to get right to them.

 

What I mean by "Warm-up" is simply getting the propulsion system to a temperature high enough to allow the EV to operate. I think that is a matter of getting the engine water temperature high enough to get the batteries warm so that can take a charge. (And to a point, deliver a charge) 

 

My main reason for getting a high mileage car is to lower my overall costs.....I am thinking in terms of cost of commute, but really I care about total costs. So I do think of the costs of pre-heating as part of my calculus. (Just as I would for the use of premium fuel and so forth.)

 

Oh, but cost goes far further than just cents per mile, but also longevity of the platform because one of the largests single costs was the purchase of the car....so if something would allow the vehicle to "last longer" (I have kept my past 7 cars past 200,000 miles) than I am all in on that too. So perhaps these block heating pre-heats will help with that, though I am not convinced. (And I certainly don't have that ability at work, so coming home would not benefit from the strategy)

 

Thanks for the pointers as I geek out on all this information and love to "learn and know"......you never know when something might become very useful in the future. (oh, and I don't poo-poo block heaters....I had one on my diesel Rabbit because it was essential to get it started in a 15 below morning situation)

 

Thanks,

-Quentin

 

[ptjones]

Oil pan/block heaters aren't totally cost effective until about $4/gallon, but part of the reason for using them is so you have heat sooner and remember it is hard to get into EV Mode until the ICE is upto 128*F WT. Also operating temp is above 202*F WT and the best temp for MPG's is 215 to 225*F from my experience.  The ICE will never get up to operating temps in City driving even with Grill Covers on. For FWY driving it takes about 20 min. going 65-75 mph to get over 202*F with Grill Covers on from a cold start.  Without Grill Covers on it could take 30 min. or more, You may not get to operating temps. As far as longevity goes my ICE works better than when it was new with 247k miles!?

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

I’ve never monitored PIDs in extremely low temps with respect to EV / ICE operations.  Attached is a good read.  It’s for MY 2017 but should be same as 2013.  Note that the Fuel Monitor entry ICE temperature is 155F page 63.  So, I’d want ICE to be at least at that temp before trying to “force” EV operation. 
 

I would keep my 1977 240D running in the parking lot trying to keep fuel from gelling at around 0F and below high daily temps .  At about 10F, I never had an issue starting.  Even added gas to the fuel.  It worked for the several days a year I had to leave it running.  But I’d get a couple calls a day, saying “you left your car running.“

 

OBDSM1700_HEV.pdf

[fbov]

11 hours ago, bigqueue said:

... you never know when something might become very useful in the future...

Informed decisions. The more you learn, the more you get choices, not outcomes. 

 

11 hours ago, bigqueue said:

What I mean by "Warm-up" is simply getting the propulsion system to a temperature high enough to allow the EV to operate.

My meaning, too, because EV and heat come at the same time in the C-Max. You can tell the folks with AccuGage or other OBDII interrogator. They know the values...

 

And thank you , Plus3, for starting the data dump. We have some interested, new owners; your pointers to past discussions are just the thing for them. 

 

Have fun,

Frank

[bigqueue]

5 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said:

I’ve never monitored PIDs in extremely low temps with respect to EV / ICE operations.  Attached is a good read.  It’s for MY 2017 but should be same as 2013.  Note that the Fuel Monitor entry ICE temperature is 155F page 63.  So, I’d want ICE to be at least at that temp before trying to “force” EV operation. 

OBDSM1700_HEV.pdf 4.04 MB · 1 download

 

Thanks for that attachment.....this will be a great read!

 

-Quentin