Battery dead

[salman]

Here is a pdf that describes some of the electrical components.

 

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=21F166D7103540!4208&authkey=!APyFF4INq4NvEZQ

 

Page 7 briefly describes the DC/DC converter that charges the 12v battery. Seems like a rudimentary check to make certain this works.

 thanks for the post.

 

yes, a rudimentary check if the service manager and/or mechanic are plugged in.

[mbedit]

Called the Ford Customer Service to get an update from Ford, the Service Rep said that they got a second call linking the two now, so I'm assuming that was yours Salman, so thats the kind of traction needed to get the attention. 

 

Basically, the technicians at the dealer are stumped, but the regional FSE thinks they can locate and fix the problem. Hopefully, soon. I'm hoping that they find it fix it, and it solves similar issues others are having, In the mean time, I'm collecting paper work and talking to a lawyer.

[Laurel]

I have a question concerning all of these dead batteries in the C-Max.  Is it possible that people are not actually turning their cars off?  I find the hybrid system so different that it is easy to make mistakes.  I came home once and drove into the garage, thought I had turned the car off, and exited.  Because there is no sound of an engine running I thought I had pushed the button, but when I did a sideways glance at the instrument panel, everything was still on.  Normally everything stays lit up until you open the car door and then starts to power off if you have turned the car off.  It would have been very easy for me to walk away from my car thinking I had turned it off--if I had been distracted in the least--that is exactly what I would have done.  But because I was not distracted I did notice that all the gauges were not powering off when I opened the driver's door.  Or perhaps double pushing the button when you turn the car off is another possibility as that puts the car into accessory mode.  I notice our running lights stay on when our car is in accessory mode i.e. I jump out to get the mail and hubby sits and listens to music and I notice the running lights are on when I come back.  I would think that would drain the 12 v battery fairly quickly.

[salman]

I have a question concerning all of these dead batteries in the C-Max.  Is it possible that people are not actually turning their cars off?  I find the hybrid system so different that it is easy to make mistakes.

 

My car operates with a key as do several of the others that have experienced dead 12 volt batteries. No chance of our having left the car turned on by accident.

Edited December 27, 2012 by salman

[valkraider]

It shouldn't matter. Every car made in the last decade has had battery protection where lights or other systems shut off after a certain period of inactivity. My 20 year old Taurus as big of a POS as it was, wouldn't kill the battery if you left the key on. It would shut down after like an hour of inactivity or whatever.

 

Now especially with that huge battery able to charge te 12v system - it just flat out shouldn't be a problem even if the door is left open, or lights are left on. Things should shut off before the 12v system is drained.

[darrelld]

Just from the descriptions its sounds like the DC/DC convertor is leaking current back into the high voltage battery by passing the battery drain protection from the low voltage side.

 

The techs should be able to O-Scope the DC/DC convertors for leaks.

Edited December 27, 2012 by darrelld

[dtorres]

SE model here too with a key so no way it was left on.

[salman]

update-

 

service manager called Ford's service hotline where he was told to do a draw test. The meter showed a draw of 2.3-2.4 amps at engine shutdown that then reduced to .01-.02 amps after about 10-15 minutes and stayed at .01-.02, which is normal.

 

I then asked the service manager to test the step down converter that converts power from the high voltage battery to 12 volt DC to charge the 12 volt battery. He said he would call the hotline, ask advice, and test the converter.

 

I am glad the service manager is making this effort.

 

Still waiting for Ford's corporate customer service to call me back as promised by 3PM today. Just about 3 now.

[salman]

Just from the descriptions its sounds like the DC/DC convertor is leaking current back into the high voltage battery by passing the battery drain protection from the low voltage side.

 

The techs should be able to O-Scope the DC/DC convertors for leaks.

 

Thanks for this helpful suggestion.

 

Wouldn't a "leak" of this kind show on a draw test as current being drawn from the 12 volt battery after shutdown? Or are you suggesting this leak/draw is happening when the car is on, so that the 12 volt is being depleted more than being charged?

[mbedit]

What they are seeing on mine is some type of intermittent draw spike. They have literally ripped the entire thing apart trying to find the circuit causing this spike. 

[salman]

What they are seeing on mine is some type of intermittent draw spike. They have literally ripped the entire thing apart trying to find the circuit causing this spike. 

mbedit

 

please provide more details. If the draw is not constant, how often does it happen? How long does a meter need to be hooked to your car to catch the spike? Does the spike happen at regular intervals or randomly? How big is the draw at its high and low points?

 

are you able to share the name of the Ford service engineer who has been sent out for the case?

 

thanks. this information might help me and others

Edited December 27, 2012 by salman

[darrelld]

Thanks for this helpful suggestion.

 

Wouldn't a "leak" of this kind show on a draw test as current being drawn from the 12 volt battery after shutdown? Or are you suggesting this leak/draw is happening when the car is on, so that the 12 volt is being depleted more than being charged?

 

From what I am reading the 12v battery does not seem to sustain charge while running. Hard to speculate without an instrumented test to confirm the theories.

[ADNK]

This whole thread is a revelation.

 

Today my 3 week old CMAX SE would not start. It was completely dead, no lights, key remote not working.  RoadSside jumped me and I went straight to the dealer.  They ran diagnostics and couldn't find anything. I have a loaner for overnight.  I sent the service adviser a link to this topic.  I am also going to call that Ford number upthread to register the problem.  How terribly discouraging this whole business is.

[salman]

This whole thread is a revelation.

 

Today my 3 week old CMAX SE would not start. It was completely dead, no lights, key remote not working.  RoadSside jumped me and I went straight to the dealer.  They ran diagnostics and couldn't find anything. I have a loaner for overnight.  I sent the service adviser a link to this topic.  I am also going to call that Ford number upthread to register the problem.  How terribly discouraging this whole business is.

 

Please keep us posted and pump your service department for details about everything they test. Tell your service dept to call the Ford hotline for tech help. They will have the number..

 

The Ford customer care number is 800-392-3673.

Edited December 28, 2012 by salman

[salman]

service manager just called me.

 

he called Ford's hotline and they told him 1) if no trouble codes are stored in the engine's computer then the DC converter is working properly and the hot line advises against any further tests, and 2) the hot line said they had no records of any similar cases.

 

Tomorrow I will pick up my car and drive it, hoping I don't get stuck with a car that does not start at an especially inconvenient time. If/when it does not start, I will have it towed to the dealership rather than jump started so they can see it in the non-functional condition.

 

I will also follow up with Ford's customer care office.

 

Mbedit's case with the Ford engineer would be especially helpful to know more about so that we all can document that Ford knows there is a problem.

 

I would not yet say that Ford has crossed a line in refusing to acknowledge a manufacturing/design defect, but this is obviousy goign to take more work on our part, and more bad experiences of cars with dead batteries.

 

If the problems continue and Ford is not forthcoming with a solution, then the car will develop a bad reputation fast. It is in Ford's best interest to solve a problem like this ASAP. Of course the real world does not always work that way.

Edited December 28, 2012 by salman

[ADNK]

service manager just called me.

 

he called Ford's hotline and they told him 1) if no trouble codes are stored in the engine's computer then the DC converter is working properly and the hot line advises against any further tests, and 2) the hot line said they had no records of any similar cases.

 

Tomorrow I will pick up my car and drive it, hoping I don't get stuck with a car that does not start at an especially inconvenient time. If/when it does not start, I will have it towed to the dealership rather than jump started so they can see it in the non-functional condition.

 

I will also follow up with Ford's customer care office.

 

Mbedit's case with the Ford engineer would be especially helpful to know more about so that we all can document that Ford knows there is a problem.

 

I would not yet say that Ford has crossed a line in refusing to acknowledge a manufacturing/design defect, but this is obviousy goign to take more work on our part, and more bad experiences of cars with dead batteries.

 

If the problems continue and Ford is not forthcoming with a solution, then the car will develop a bad reputation fast. It is in Ford's best interest to solve a problem like this ASAP. Of course the real world does not always work that way.

 

It is clearly in our best interests to make as much noise as possible.

[valkraider]

Document document document.

[salman]

Yes, we need to collect information, share it with each other, and each of us needs to call & write to Ford and keep careful records.

 

Ford's best interest is to resolve the problem ASAP.

[darrelld]

Does Ford have anything similar to VCDS?

 

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/

[valkraider]

Ahh, good old VAG-COM. I prevented some EGR hassles on my 2003TDI using one at a VW get-together. By adjusting one parameter still within manufacturer spec but just slightly higher than factory setting, we saved many people from being stranded or having trips to the dealer.

 

If Ford does have something similar, I would love to know. I have the perfect little left-over "laptop schools" laptop that is dying to have a purpose in life.

[darrelld]

Ahh, good old VAG-COM. I prevented some EGR hassles on my 2003TDI using one at a VW get-together. By adjusting one parameter still within manufacturer spec but just slightly higher than factory setting, we saved many people from being stranded or having trips to the dealer.

If Ford does have something similar, I would love to know. I have the perfect little left-over "laptop schools" laptop that is dying to have a purpose in life.

Would be invaluable for troubleshooting these problems, searched but I can't find anything.

[salman]

New day. Back on the phone with Ford cutomer care asking why I haven't heard from them. I got the name and number of the manager I have been assigned and left him a voice mail message. He is due at the office by 10AM.

 

Unfortunately this means I will be picking up my car today with no discovery of the cause of the 12 volt problem.

 

Please post full details of what your dealerships test, what results they get, and what they change or correct to try to solve this problem.

 

And please call Ford customer care and write letters so that Ford hears there is a problem.

[salman]

Does Ford have anything similar to VCDS?

 

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/

 When I get my car later this morning I am going to try to pump my service manager for details about their diagnostic program, how long they hooked a meter to my battery to check for power draw while the car was off, etc.

[mbedit]

mbedit

 

please provide more details. If the draw is not constant, how often does it happen? How long does a meter need to be hooked to your car to catch the spike? Does the spike happen at regular intervals or randomly? How big is the draw at its high and low points?

 

are you able to share the name of the Ford service engineer who has been sent out for the case?

 

thanks. this information might help me and others

I really wish I had more information, but the service rep I've been dealing with basicaly admits its too technical for him to understand, so I can only share what I've been able to get out of them.

 

Originally, they did all the normal load tests and battery tests, and they came out fine. This 2nd go around I believe they did a sustained test over night, and this is where they reported an intermitent spike. I assume by intermitent is random. Ford then replaced the Primary Computer, as they thought the spike was traced to that. It did not remove the spike they are tracking, so they have started digging through every ciricuit. To my understanding, the FSE has been in twice to help, and the delaer technicians are reling on the Ford service help line and FSE to guide them. The FSE seems to have an idea of what and how to trouble shoot, and the Dealer Techs try and collect data trying to isolate where this spike they are seeing is coming from.

 

I haven't actually gotten any information as to exactly what system or subsytem they are tracking this spike through.

 

Honestly, I think this "spike" may be chasing rainbows... my simplistic thinking of the really root problem is along these lines.

 

Something causes the vehical to fail to turn off, and then the 12V battery is drained. Its still a defect, and there must be some common thread to the style, model or options of C-Max that are failing, which is why I'm wondering if its only SE models, or if people with an SEL have reported such a failure.

 

My understanding is the SE has the key and the SEL use the start/stop button. Mine is a base model. nothing special, so I wonder if people with say, the upgraded stereo have experinced this.

[ADNK]

New day. Back on the phone with Ford cutomer care asking why I haven't heard from them. I got the name and number of the manager I have been assigned and left him a voice mail message. He is due at the office by 10AM.

 

Unfortunately this means I will be picking up my car today with no discovery of the cause of the 12 volt problem.

 

Please post full details of what your dealerships test, what results they get, and what they change or correct to try to solve this problem.

 

And please call Ford customer care and write letters so that Ford hears there is a problem.

 

I picked up my car this morning. They went over it yesterday and this morning and couldn't find the reason for the shut-down.  He DID say that if it happened again, not to get it jumped, but to call for a tow so he could take a look at it "non-normal", the better to find the problem.  He too called the inhouse service dept. "hot line" with the same results as above (i.e. stonewalling)

 

When I got home I called 800 392-3673 central Ford Customer Service line. and told them what had happened. I also told them that the kind of people who buy hybrids and electric cars are the kind of people who are really hooked into social media and that Ford REALLY ought to get in front of this if they don't want to damage the brand.

 

I told her that people really want to love this car, this domestic hybrid that's cute as hell. And I reminded her that "people still buy Tylenol", despite the tampering scandal because the company was right out in front with their customers.

 

In the meantime I will be buying of of those little jump-start portables to keep in the back  :)