FORD HYBRIDS should come standard with ICE block heaters

[ptjones]

ICE block heaters would improve MPG's by at least 2mpg all year around and shorten time to get heat in the winter.  Remember CMAX doesn't want to EV until 128degrees WT. At this time the only way you can get a ICE BH is by fleet order according to FORD. It would be nice if you could order it as an option at least. IMO :) 

 

Paul 

[hybridbear]

+1

[fbov]

...the only way you can get a ICE BH is by fleet order according to FORD. ...

Boy is that stupid!!! What happened to "standard up north?"

Frank

[ptjones]

Boy is that stupid!!! What happened to "standard up north?"

Frank

It just accord to me that if FORD had supplied ICE block heaters standard and recommended use when temps drop below 50degrees F to get the best MPG's, they might not ended up having to do the rebate. IMO :) 

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

It just accord to me that if FORD had supplied ICE block heaters standard and recommended use when temps drop below 50degrees F to get the best MPG's, they might not ended up having to do the rebate. IMO :)

 

Paul

The EPA Emissions and FE tests specify the conditions in the 5 test cycles.  Block heaters would not be permitted to warm the engine.  Most manufacturers don't run all five cycle but run just the old two cycle tests for the EPA FE -  the City Cycle and the Highway Cycle both run at 75F IIRC.   The City Cycle test has a cold start (vehicle would be heat soaked at 75F) and a hot start in the cycle.  There is a Cold Cycle test which is the same as the City test except the ambient temperature is 20F IIRC.  The other two test that are generally not run are the High Speed test cycle and the High Temperature AC test cycle (95F).

 

Remember, Ford used the more aerodynamic Fusion Hybrid two cycle test data for the C-Max Hybrid which is the primary reason why the C-Max original EPA rating were too high (7 mpg too high on the highway test). :)

 

 

[HPRifleman]

I don't think making the block heaters standard would have much benefit because the majority of C-Max buyers would not plug them in. Customers would be paying for an option that they would probably not be using.

[ptjones]

The EPA Emissions and FE tests specify the conditions in the 5 test cycles.  Block heaters would not be permitted to warm the engine.  Most manufacturers don't run all five cycle but run just the old two cycle tests for the EPA FE -  the City Cycle and the Highway Cycle both run at 75F IIRC.   The City Cycle test has a cold start (vehicle would be heat soaked at 75F) and a hot start in the cycle.  There is a Cold Cycle test which is the same as the City test except the ambient temperature is 20F IIRC.  The other two test that are generally not run are the High Speed test cycle and the High Temperature AC test cycle (95F).

 

Remember, Ford used the more aerodynamic Fusion Hybrid two cycle test data for the C-Max Hybrid which is the primary reason why the C-Max original EPA rating were too high (7 mpg too high on the highway test). :)

 

 

I wasn't thinking about this from EPA testing, just to help CMAX get better MPG's during the winter time when everyone was complaining. Could have saved FORD millions in rebate money. I think EPA was only off by 3-4mpg by my testing. :)

 

I don't think making the block heaters standard would have much benefit because the majority of C-Max buyers would not plug them in. Customers would be paying for an option that they would probably not be using.

I think you are right but it would have given FORD an out and from my testing it's worth 2mpg's City driving all year long, maybe more so during the winter. :) 

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

I disagree that if Ford installed block heaters as standard, Ford has an out with owner complaints.  C-Max sales would plummet if Ford told owner's they had to plug-in or not get close to the advertized EPA FE.  That's the only FE number that matters.  

 

The benefit of block heaters diminishes quickly with the distance of the trip and the ability to plug-in at both ends of the commute. So, a 2 mpg improvement from 40 mpg over a 10 mile city trip, twice a day for 250 days would save about 6 gallons of fuel or about $20 annually. IMO, it's would be considered a nuisance or would be impracticable to plug-in and plug-out out for the majority of owners once a day let alone at both ends of a commute for $20.  The primary benefit of block heaters in cold climates is to help ensure that one's vehicle starts. The ancillary benefit is faster warm-up time and better FE during the warm-up period.  So, a block heater makes sense in extremely cold climates as a hedge against a no start.

 

Also, a typical block heater might be 1000 Watts and likely needs plugged in at least one hour and likely longer.  That's 500 kWh per year (500 plug-ins x one hour x 1 kW).  At $0.10 per kWh that's $50 a year in electricity.  The small oil pan heater are about 150 Watts and likely need plugged in for many hours to get the equivalent heat into the engine.  Also, one would likely need a timer as plugging in these heaters 8 hours or so would make one's electric costs even more.  The primary benefit of a block heater / oil pan heater is to help by allowing easier cranking of the car during extreme cold spells.  The C-Max simply doesn't require one for help in starting as MG1 via the HVB starts ICE - there's plenty of cranking power.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Plus 3 Golfer

[ptjones]

I would agree with you from a warm weather local, but from where it's cold 5 months of the year it's much cheaper to run a block heater  for an hour or two than running the ICE for 15-30 minutes to warm up the car. FORD could explain the money an owner would save and improvement in MPG's as compared to using gas to run the ICE to warm up the car, good selling point over other Hybrids. IMO :)

 

Paul

[fbov]

Case in point. Today it was 50F so I took the back roads and got 48.5MPG. This same route is only good for 30MPG when it's below zero, because the ICE is always on. That's what got me taking the expressway in Winter - better mileage!

 

Granted, the ICE would be cooling, and eventually, I'd be needing to run it to keep heat, but by then, the engine would be staying warm (~1/3 ICE usage on this route).

 

And let me take a moment to discuss cold soak. We had a cold winter, and our house is in a cold spot. Every morning we were sub-zero, EV was unavailable long after ICE was hot. I'd seen the EV threashold behavior, and this is different; it took over 10 miles to get any EV. Coming home, the car sat through the heat of the day (such as it was) and I had EV access in a few miles. I thought it was me until the pattern repeated week after week - the traction motor would contribute, but a cold battery can impede access to EV.

 

Granted, we're talking an ICE heater, but an HV heater might be a good idea for those who see extreme cold... or cleaning out the garage and keeping the car indoors where it won't cold soak so bad. Yeah, right!

 

Have fun,

Frank

[fotomoto]

Factory wiring for a EBH on fleabay. 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-Cmax-Engine-Block-Heater-Wiring-DM5T-6A050-AA-OEM-/310905544107?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item48636a1dab&vxp=mtr

Edited March 30, 2014 by fotomoto

[Smiling Jack]

OK, I've been lurking on this thread for a while now and I've finally decided to add a few bits to the discussion.

 

I grew up in Philadelphia.  Living there, I had heard of electric block heaters, but even though we usually had a fair amount of sub-freezing weather every winter, no one I actually knew had a block heater.  I live in Houston now.  Hardly anyone here (and no one at my auto dealers' parts counters) even knows what a block heater is.

 

I had my first real encounters with block heaters when I spent most of my winters for 5 years working north of the Arctic circle in Alaska and Canada.  There using block heaters was a way of life and, in a sense, a suvfival mechanism.  Thinking about the benefits of easier starting and quicker cabin heat, I came to wonder why they weren't much more widely used in even moderately cold climates.  In addition, many of those those who used block heaters were convinced there were also big benefits to be had in engine life and in fuel economy.  If that were true, I wondered why the things weren't  more widely used everywhere.

 

Prior to my C-max, I had a Camry Hybrid.  Now I normally make a lot  of short trips from a cold start; so I soon began to see what a lot of C-maxers have posetd here:  Short trips from a cold start are disastrous for fuel economy.  This is true with any car because a cold engine uses a lot more fuel than than one that is fully warmed up.  It's not merely the energy needed to warm the engine up.  It is also because a cold engine runs a a much richer fuel-to-air mixture.  The richer mixture is necessary because gasoline condenses out on the cold cylinder walls and exits the combustion chamber unburned.  Yes, it is completely wasted.  Even worse; the gasoline that condenses out on the cylinder walls washes off the lubricating oil.    Still worse:  the unburned gasoline winds up in the crankcase where it contaminates the oil and ultimately causes addditional wear on bearings and other parts.  This is why cold starts are blamed for most engine wear.

 

As if all of this were not bad enough, for a lot of Hybrids (definitely including the Camry Hybrid, Prius and Escape Hybrid - and from what I read here, probably the C-max Hybrid as well) it gets even worse:  Various controls on the hybrid systems prevent full hybrid operation until the ICE is fully warmed up, further reducing big fuel efficiency opportunities.

 

All of this in mind, I put a block heater on my Camry Hybrid and used it over several years.

 

Now by this point you will be suspecting that I am quite opinionated about electric block heaters, and I am, but so far this post has been factual, and I'm going to keep it that way, reserving my opinions - possibly for later posts.

 

My electric block heater for the Camry Hybrid cost me about $40.00.  Self installation did not require raising the car, and it went fairly quickly - less than an hour as I recall.

 

My electric block heater drew 400 watts or less, according to both the specs and my Kill-a-Watt meter.

 

Effectively warming up the engine took about 30 minutes on the average, a bit more in the winter and a bit more in the summer.  An extra hour plugged in would raise the temperature gauge a little more, but did not seem to bring any real benefit. At the time I paid an average of about $0.10 per kilowatt-hour for the electricity.

 

My short trip mpg for trips of 2 to 4 miles went from typically typically under 20 without the block heater to typically over 30 with.  (At the time I was getting over 40 mpg on long trips.)

 

I normally used the block heater only at home, usually on a timer to turn it on about a half an hour or so before my usual morning departure.

 

I made a large number of comparisons of fuel consumption with and without the block heater assisted warmup, summer and winter, with same trip lengths and  at comparable ambient temperatures.  Even on extremely short cold start trips I used a minimum of 0.03 gallons less with the block heater than without and about twice that much on somewahat longer trips.  At the time I paid between $3.00 and $4.00 a gallon for the gasoline.

 

I figured that with regular use of the block heater only once a day, my fuel savings, accounting for the cost of electricity, could retire the cost of the block heater in less than a year, and have the savings for free after that.  In addition, I would have other benefits: reduced engine wear quicker cabin heat, plus better mpg bragging rights and a bit less personal contribution to our local air pollution problem.

 

One remarkable thing that I had not expected was that the fuel savings were to be had even in the summer in Houston even when our morning ambient temperatures were in the 90's.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Smiling Jack

[ptjones]

My findings are the same with oil pan heater and use it all year.   I believe the best fuel efficiency is between 200-230 degrees F, Ford said normal operating coolant temperature was approximately 202-212*F.  On the FWY going to Atlanta International Auto Show yesterday I started out at 52mpg average, but by 10miles it had dropped to 51mpg and stabilized. Having reached 200*F mpg's started going up, temps got to 227*F going up hills and 215*F going down. This is with Grill Covers on.  At 40miles mpg's were up to 52.2 average for the tank and 53.2mpg for the trip.  :)

 

Paul

Edited March 30, 2014 by ptjones

[ptjones]

Bought FORD CMAX Engine Block Heater on EBAY MOTORS today for $76.  Temps in high 70's today and still with Grill Covers on I could only get to 184*F. :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

I disagree that if Ford installed block heaters as standard, Ford has an out with owner complaints.  C-Max sales would plummet if Ford told owner's they had to plug-in or not get close to the advertized EPA FE.  That's the only FE number that matters.  

 

The benefit of block heaters diminishes quickly with the distance of the trip and the ability to plug-in at both ends of the commute. So, a 2 mpg improvement from 40 mpg over a 10 mile city trip, twice a day for 250 days would save about 6 gallons of fuel or about $20 annually. IMO, it's would be considered a nuisance or would be impracticable to plug-in and plug-out out for the majority of owners once a day let alone at both ends of a commute for $20.  The primary benefit of block heaters in cold climates is to help ensure that one's vehicle starts. The ancillary benefit is faster warm-up time and better FE during the warm-up period.  So, a block heater makes sense in extremely cold climates as a hedge against a no start.

 

Also, a typical block heater might be 1000 Watts and likely needs plugged in at least one hour and likely longer.  That's 500 kWh per year (500 plug-ins x one hour x 1 kW).  At $0.10 per kWh that's $50 a year in electricity.  The small oil pan heater are about 150 Watts and likely need plugged in for many hours to get the equivalent heat into the engine.  Also, one would likely need a timer as plugging in these heaters 8 hours or so would make one's electric costs even more.  The primary benefit of a block heater / oil pan heater is to help by allowing easier cranking of the car during extreme cold spells.  The C-Max simply doesn't require one for help in starting as MG1 via the HVB starts ICE - there's plenty of cranking power.

The FORD ICE Block Heater uses 400W and my oil pan heater uses 150W, so I will need to do some testing to see how much of a rise in block temp I get in 30min, 1hr, 2hr and 3hrs. :)

 

Paul

[Smiling Jack]

The FORD ICE Block Heater uses 400W and my oil pan heater uses 150W, so I will need to do some testing to see how much of a rise in block temp I get in 30min, 1hr, 2hr and 3hrs. :)

 

Paul

 

Please do post as to whether using both heaters gives a better result.

[ptjones]

Today I watched WT closely and I got to 128*F in less than a 1/4mile. Conditions were I turned on oil pan heater 3hrs before leaving, garage temp 68* and WT and IT were 80* keeping in mind that temp sensor is at the top of the engine and oil pan heater is at the bottom. Outside temp was 50*F. So it looks like that I should be able to get to 128*F in a hour with the combination of block and oil pan heaters. Time would increase with lower outside temps. :) 

 

Paul 

[Smiling Jack]

Thanks, Paul.

[ptjones]

Got the engine block heater, but not the cable,  ordered it and should have Friday. It would have been a lot chear to go with a KAT block heater but I was worried about it being a press fit with the high Water pressure. Ford is a screw in one. :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

I got the cable today so maybe I can install it this weekend.   Sorry for the small size, I apparently used my storage room up. :)

 

Paul

Edited April 10, 2014 by ptjones

[banditb17]

Living in Wisconsin this interests me quite a bit... but I keep the C-Max in the garage and I don't have access to power in the work lot. Rats...

[ptjones]

Living in Wisconsin this interests me quite a bit... but I keep the C-Max in the garage and I don't have access to power in the work lot. Rats...

Maybe a long extension cord. LOL  Grill Covers are the way to go to improve MPG's and don't require electricity. :) 

 

Paul

[ptjones]

I currently have a Wolverine Model #9 Oil Pan Heater at 125watts, I think it is a little low wattage for the job and would recommend two with one on the side of the block to speed up the heat up time. In one hour I don't notice any WT rise although I'm sure there is at the oil pan. I have left it on over nite and in the morning the  is 20 degrees F than outside temp. Oil Pan is along way from WT sensor. I have a FORD  CMAX block heater to install in the block but my FORD Dealer wants $721 to install it. I'm going to find a auto repair shop to install it for less than $100 I hope. I have a FORD CMAX service manual CD and I could do it myself if I had easy access under the car. :)

 

Paul

[CircleCityIrish]

I currently have a Wolverine Model #9 Oil Pan Heater at 125watts, I think it is a little low wattage for the job and would recommend two with one on the side of the block to speed up the heat up time. In one hour I don't notice any WT rise although I'm sure there is at the oil pan. I have left it on over nite and in the morning the is 20 degrees F than outside temp. Oil Pan is along way from WT sensor. I have a FORD CMAX block heater to install in the block but my FORD Dealer wants $721 to install it. I'm going to find a auto repair shop to install it for less than $100 I hope. I have a FORD CMAX service manual CD and I could do it myself if I had easy access under the car. :)

 

Paul

Where exactly did you place the heaters? I'm very interested in doing similar with my car since I have to leave it outdoors when I'm at work.

Edited July 17, 2014 by CircleCityIrish

[ptjones]

Where exactly did you place the heaters? I'm very interested in doing similar with my car since I have to leave it outdoors when I'm at work.

There is a flat spot big enough on the bottom of Oil Pan and is easy to install. I would recommend second one on the side of block if you can find a spot with easy access and Oil Pan heater does bend if necessary. You will need to jack up the front of car and remove bottom cover, you will need star screw driver. :) 

 

Paul