The C-Max Hybrid is better for the environment than the Energi....

[TopherTheME]

At least according to fueleconomy.gov and based on my region. The C-Max Hybrid has a tailpipe score of 260 gCO2/mile while the Energi is 270 if upstream CO2 generation is considered. Basically, Michigan produces most of its power from coal fired power plants which as I'm sure everyone knows is a very dirty fuel, far worse than gasoline. So even though the processes of burning coal in a Rankin cycle power plant, generating power and sending it through the grid, then charging a battery, then driving an electric motor is suppose to be more efficient than a gasoline engine, it still produces more CO2. If you live in a region like New York where most of the power is generated from nuclear and other sources the Energi's score drops down to 200 gCO2/mile.

 

Here's a list of scores for other vehicles in my area:

- Cmax Energi - 270

- Cmax Hybrid - 260

- Toyota Prius - 222

- Toyota Prius C - 222

- Model S (85kWh) - 320

- Chevy Volt - 300

- Nissan Leaf - 260

- Mazda 3 (2.0L) - 326

 

So if you live in a region where you get your power form coal fired plants your all electric Tesla Model S has about the same impact on the environment as a Mazda 3.

 

 

[jdbob]

Fortunately I get my power from Hydro and Wind so the situation is very different. Your subject title sucks because it assumes everyone is in the same sad situation.

 

Relvant report: http://assets.climatecentral.org/pdfs/ClimateFriendlyCarsReport_Final.pdf

[bro1999]

It all depends on what region of the country you're in. In Michigan, yes, conventional hybrid vehicles have a smaller carbon footprint than an EV or PHEV (71% electricity from coal! wtf!), but in Cali, the CO2 emissions from an EV are almost half that of a hybrid (PHEV falls in between).

 

In MD, EVs emit 32% less CO2 than hybrids, PHEVs 16% less (according to www.afdc.energy.gov). I'm pretty sure their info is at least 2 years old, and our electricity production must have shifted to less coal/oil since the numbers were last updated.

Nationally, EVs are still slightly better than hybrids, with PHEVs slightly worse (but still waaaay better than conventional ICE vehicles).

Edited June 3, 2014 by bro1999

[fotomoto]

That site includes tailpipe emissions for PHEV's* but if I travel 100% EV in my NRG, which I do most days, my CO2 only comes from electricity generation (which has a more and more wind in the mix here in Texas) and plummets to 130g/mile.  :happy feet:

 

*These estimates assume that 48% of the vehicle's operation is powered by electricity and the rest is powered by gasoline. This assumption is based on the vehicle's design and average driving habits. In the future, you will be able to personalize these estimates based on your own driving habits.

Edited June 3, 2014 by fotomoto

[hybridbear]

The first big problem with such analyses is that they are making an unfair comparison.

 

Burning gasoline is a hybrid or conventional vehicle is the equivalent to discharging the HVB and spinning the electric motor in a BEV. The BEV creates ZERO pollution in that part of the process. The pollution created by electricity generation for a BEV is the equivalent to the refining process for a gas powered vehicle. To generate electricity you take coal, for example, and "refine" it by combustion to generate electricity. For a conventional car you take crude oil and "refine" it to make gasoline. If you want to start talking about pollution from electricity generation for EVs, then you need to compare that pollution to the pollution from the gasoline refining process, the pollution from transporting the gasoline to the gas station and the pollution from gasoline evaporation between the refinery & the combustion chamber of the ICE. Only then will you have a real "apples-to-apples" comparison.

 

Another aspect about pollution that's often missed is that most EVs are charged at night. At night there is excess supply. This means that the power plant would be producing x kWh of power regardless of your EV and thus they would be emitting y kg of CO2 emissions regardless of your EV. Effectively the EV is creating no pollution because even if you didn't plug it in the power plant would still be polluting the same amount. This would basically eliminate, or at least greatly reduce, the amount of electricity generation pollution that can be tied to the EV.

 

It really bugs me how off-base so many of these articles are.

 

Whew...I need to calm down now. Articles like this get me really worked up because they just go to show how the oil industry creates this propaganda to deceive the public.

[TopherTheME]

The first big problem with such analyses is that they are making an unfair comparison.

 

Burning gasoline is a hybrid or conventional vehicle is the equivalent to discharging the HVB and spinning the electric motor in a BEV. The BEV creates ZERO pollution in that part of the process. The pollution created by electricity generation for a BEV is the equivalent to the refining process for a gas powered vehicle. To generate electricity you take coal, for example, and "refine" it by combustion to generate electricity. For a conventional car you take crude oil and "refine" it to make gasoline. If you want to start talking about pollution from electricity generation for EVs, then you need to compare that pollution to the pollution from the gasoline refining process, the pollution from transporting the gasoline to the gas station and the pollution from gasoline evaporation between the refinery & the combustion chamber of the ICE. Only then will you have a real "apples-to-apples" comparison.

 

Another aspect about pollution that's often missed is that most EVs are charged at night. At night there is excess supply. This means that the power plant would be producing x kWh of power regardless of your EV and thus they would be emitting y kg of CO2 emissions regardless of your EV. Effectively the EV is creating no pollution because even if you didn't plug it in the power plant would still be polluting the same amount. This would basically eliminate, or at least greatly reduce, the amount of electricity generation pollution that can be tied to the EV.

 

It really bugs me how off-base so many of these articles are.

 

Whew...I need to calm down now. Articles like this get me really worked up because they just go to show how the oil industry creates this propaganda to deceive the public.

 

 

I don't know about the report but the data from fueleconomy.gov/EPA includes the energy for refining and deliverying fuel in the upstream GHG calculation.

 

Also, thats not how power plants work. Power plants don't produce excess power when the demand isn't there, they follow the demand. So yes, charging your EV at night still causes the power plant to produce the same amount (roughly) of CO2 as charging during the day.

[hybridbear]

I don't know about the report but the data from fueleconomy.gov/EPA includes the energy for refining and deliverying fuel in the upstream GHG calculation.

 

Also, thats not how power plants work. Power plants don't produce excess power when the demand isn't there, they follow the demand. So yes, charging your EV at night still causes the power plant to produce the same amount (roughly) of CO2 as charging during the day.

Power plants cannot instantly adjust their output to match demand. Even power plants which can vary their output to match demand are "load-following", they are not load anticipating, so they still are reactionary. They produce enough power to prevent blackouts. The point is that a gas ICE only injects the right amount of fuel into the cylinder for what's needed. A power company is producing enough electricity to make sure that there is enough supply, having enough supply means having excess supply. Thus your EV, pulling a tiny amount of power in the grand scheme of things, is not adding any incremental pollution.

[timwil56]

But the power plant is going to be running regardless of demand. Yes, it's going to reduce the amount it generates because demand is lower at night, but it will never be an equal ratio, the plant has to generate more than demand. My Energi consumes so little electricity to charge, it and every other electric vehicle on the grid doesn't come close to consuming the extra power that's wasted by over generation.

[fbov]

...It really bugs me how off-base so many of these articles are.... just go to show how the oil industry creates this propaganda to deceive the public.

Be careful whose side you take... all sides of the energy debate have a downside

 

It's not like coal plants only release CO2... Uranium, thorium, Arsenic, Selenium and Mercury are also present, and enriched by the process of burning. Studies show you'll get less radiation living next to a nuke plant than a coal plant... but it all pales compared with natural sources, or that X-ray of your bad knee.

 

You won't find any "White Hats" unless you ignore the dirt, as everyone's dirty to some extent.

 

Have fun,

Frank

[hybridbear]

Be careful whose side you take... all sides of the energy debate have a downside

 

It's not like coal plants only release CO2... Uranium, thorium, Arsenic, Selenium and Mercury are also present, and enriched by the process of burning. Studies show you'll get less radiation living next to a nuke plant than a coal plant... but it all pales compared with natural sources, or that X-ray of your bad knee.

 

You won't find any "White Hats" unless you ignore the dirt, as everyone's dirty to some extent.

 

Have fun,

Frank

I don't advocate coal power plants. I just used that in my comparison because coal is often used as the dirtiest of all power sources currently used in this country. But even the dirty coal power plants being used to power an EV are less polluting that a hybrid.

[ptjones]

Also it takes more energy to make a Hybrid/EV than a ICE vehicle, I just like saving money at the pump. :)

 

Paul

[SnowStorm]

Also it takes more energy to make a Hybrid/EV than a ICE vehicle, I just like saving money at the pump. :)

 

Paul

Me too!  Plus, I figure I've saved enough energy from not watching TV for 40 years to build a whole car!