Validated yet UPSET at Ford

[timwil56]

This reminds me of when Budweiser got taken over by a Belgian brewing giant.  This American guy says "I'm never drinking Budweiser again.  I'm switching to a real american drink:  Wild Turkey!"   And the punchline?:  Wild Turkey has been owned by Ricard/Pernod for years. 

 

While the C-max is "assembled" in Michigan, its transmission is Japan-built.  Ditto the engine.  The components are probably all made in China.  The idea that the car is "American" is simply not true.  Sorry.

Are you sure about the transmission being built in Japan. I thought the ecvt in the Ford hybrids, PEHV and Focus electric was a Ford design and built in Wayne. You are correct about individual parts suppliers coming from around the World, that's why Ford refers to their cars as a Global Design. It saves the company money and makes it easier to build cars when they share components. You may want to check on that Made in China statement, I believe most of the parts made in China are for the Chinese market and none make it to the Western market.

Edited June 18, 2014 by timwil56

[ptjones]

This reminds me of when Budweiser got taken over by a Belgian brewing giant.  This American guy says "I'm never drinking Budweiser again.  I'm switching to a real american drink:  Wild Turkey!"   And the punchline?:  Wild Turkey has been owned by Ricard/Pernod for years. 

 

While the C-max is "assembled" in Michigan, its transmission is Japan-built.  Ditto the engine.  The components are probably all made in China.  The idea that the car is "American" is simply not true.  Sorry.

Here is a link to article on % of parts made in US for cars sold in US.        http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/10-most-american-made-vehicles-for-2014.html/?a=viewall

Transmission is made in the US and ICE in Mexico :)

 

Paul 

Edited June 20, 2014 by ptjones

[plus 3 golfer]

...

 

I remember visiting car lots in the 70's with my dad and him saying "Sure the sticker says 18 mpg but you'll never get that".  I thought that was common knowledge--"under ideal circumstances"...

That was true until 2008 when the EPA changed the way FE was calculated a second time.  Most changes resulted in vehicles dropping 10%+ in FE in 2008.  Also, I believe the EPA 2 cycle tests were originally developed in the 1970s and IIRC the first change in FE calculations were in the 1980's to better represent current conditions (a lowering of which I don't recall the approx. %).   The point being the EPA has changed procedures in the past when the FE numbers were out of whack.  It may be time for another change but don't expect the methodology to be based on anything other than an "average" driver anytime soon.     

 

I've posted this VW 1960 ad shown below before.  I think it accurately represents the range one might expect from an old Beetle.  So, if one wants to get 50 mpg in their C-Max, follow the advise of VW in the ad.  Time doesn't change what one has to do to get great FE or poor FE.  It's not about driving it "like a Hybrid" it's about driving it like one would any car to get good FE.  The Hybrid has some unique features, displays, coaches and so forth that can help but it boils down to the driver.  Perhaps if gas rose to a very high price (for example, $10 a gallon) and stayed there for many years, drivers would change their driving style and the EPA would likely change it's methodology to reflect the "new" average driver.  

 

Also, note that VW says to expect 40k miles out of the tires.  I can say I was lucky to get 20k out of a set of late 1960 tires.  I never got 40k miles out of tires until I bought a set of Michelin Radials about 1972/3.

 

 

   

[Adrian_L]

I could have sworn I read that the transmission was made by Aisin, but I'm happy to stand corrected.  

 

So the largest component in the car is Mexican and a further 20% is Japanese.  Hardly All American.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Adrian_L

[fbov]

...It's not about driving it "like a Hybrid" it's about driving it like one would any car to get good FE....  

Agreed, but there are real advantages to a car that automates hypermiling techniques. Automatic EOC is legal in all states, and once you get the hang of P&G, you glide much farther with EV assist than you would otherwise. Hybrids don't get good mileage, they enable drivers to get good mileage if they so choose.

 

(EOC - engine off coasting, P&G - pulse and glide, for those not familair with the terms.)

 

And no one got 40K miles on bias ply tires...

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[Marc Smith]

fbov...for one tank  I drove my 2010 prius in power mode, and basically drove it like a normal car.  hard braking, quick starts... for similar driving in HHR  I got 22 mpg.  the prius a tick over 40...  the system helps with out much "know how"  from a driver standpoint...  so you don't need to know how to drive a hybrid to get good mileage.  but  it surely helps...

[plus 3 golfer]

I would think the FE would always be better at 72*F than 20*F and 72*F, 95*F similar depending on the use of A/C? :)

 

Paul

I agree.  I also have said that if Ford could have got better FE numbers by running all 5 EPA FE cycles they would have rather than rely on the standard factors used to lower the raw FE number to account for ambient temperature, AC and other factors accounted for by the 3 additional cycles.

 

Paul, note the benefit in the FE in the UDDS cold start cycle at 72F vs 20F.  Like you've said oil / block heaters will help significantly by eliminating / reducing the warm up time.

 

I also had my climate screen displayed today with ambient around 100F and full sun (probably around 800 W/m^2 given we are approaching the summer solstice). The climate usage varied between about 600 W to 900 W after the initial cool downs - average of about one HP whether stopped or going 70 mph. So, travel times for the same distance will affect the amount of fuel used for AC. Thus, for slower speed driving is can result in a significant hit to FE.  Whereas, if one is cruising the interstate at 75 mph, the FE hit of using AC will be a lot less.  

[SnowStorm]

I've posted this VW 1960 ad shown below before.

Also, note that VW says to expect 40k miles out of the tires.  I can say I was lucky to get 20k out of a set of late 1960 tires.  I never got 40k miles out of tires until I bought a set of Michelin Radials about 1972/3.

 

 

They had 40k tires back then.  We called them "retreads"! :lol2: Do that once or twice and no problem.  40k on the same "tires".  Anyone remember?  (My dad used them until radials came along.)  Went to Florida once and took two spares!  They could come apart at speed - taught you to keep both hands on the wheel!

 

But I loved those ads.  Interesting tidbits: $1,565 - that was the whole car (such as it was ;))!  "Practically no oil between changes" - you better hope not, with changes coming so frequently! :spend:   (But does that mean no oil used or no oil added?)  "And an engine that's seldom in the repair shop" - because you'd best learn to work on it yourself! :lol:

 

Back to the numbers: the C-Max should be more like 42, 60, 38.

[nsteblay]

I refuse to buy anything not built in America.  By doing so you only erode the economy that much more by buying a foreign car.  Not to mention hurting American auto workers jobs.  If a better solution doesn't exist from America then keep your CMax.  Bottom line, I'm staying with my CMax despite the recent flurry of Nav and Sync problems I've been having.  The Sync unit is crap that much I know for sure.

There was a story on one of the major news channels that determine what percent of components are American for cars sold in America.  Guess what car had the highest - Toyota Corolla.  Toyota has built factories in the US and buys many of the parts needed on soil.  Crazy.  And we have companies like Apple and Medtronic moving money or even their place of incorporation offshore to avoid US taxes. I still like the idea of a US owned company that has manufacturing on soil.

[Daveymars]

Good point.  Would I be happy if the insurance rated the vehicle much less than what it should have been?  No, I would not be happy with my insurance agent.  Here again, it is a risk taken by any owner of a new line of vehicle, that the resale value of a new line of vehicle may decline sharper because of unknown mechanical, style, or other issues that arise a year or so after its purchase.

WHigh is why I bought gap insurance. .. so that at least I wouldn't owe on it... 

[Daveymars]

Alright. I'm gonna step in here and get my head taken off but, seriously people, the Cmax gets the original 47/47/47. You drive the car the way the EPA tests it, it will get that and better all day long! I have a lot of mixed driving on mine. City, highway, & interstate. My lifetime average is 46.4 mpg for almost 17,000 miles. Speaking of interstate, that is the REAL problem. The EPA does not calculate for interstate.

 

Their highway test is at 48.3 mph, for 11 miles on flat ground, at a controlled temperature. So tell me, do you really expect your car to get the same mileage as in the conditions I just mentioned when you're cruising at 75 down the interstate, going over hills, having to speed up and slow down because of traffic, in a barrage of different types of weather? If you do, then you are not living in the real world! That being said I usually get 40-43 mpg avg at 75 mph down the interstate. If it gets over 90° It tends to be lower as the air has more work to do, but I'm sure it will help when I get the windows tinted.

 

As far as the the resale value,YES it's terrible, but it wouldn't be that way if all of these people that bought it didn't complain to everyone and their mother because they expect to drive which ever way they want and expect it do just as good as the meroney sticker says.

 

I love my Cmax, the same factors that affect every car affect it as well. After breaking in the vehicle I have noticed much better overall performance.

 

So I guess what I'm saying guys is lay off of Ford, it's the EPA. Plus think about it, do you know anything the government mandates, regulates or oversees that is worth anything? I sure don't!

 

I'll get off my soap box now.

I don't want to take your head off. (You seem like a "good egg" to me!) I am at 10,000 miles @ 38.7 mpg which considering that I haven't gotten a cover or a block heater is not bad.. got the car on MLK Day.   I promise I have never complained about my "low" mileage (best I have ever had over an all highway 75 mph drive of 80 mi/daily! ) I also love My Ford Touch! But my complaint remains with the fact that the reliaility of the car is so highly questionable. If something goes wrong will my dealer's mechanic staff actually know what to do?   Edmunds and consumer union's reliability rating is killing me.... I will put 100000 miles on a car in 4 years... so I am praying the batteries will hold on til 175,000 lol I can dream!

 

I really love the car... I just wish others did too! 

[wamba2000]

Hot Potato said:
 

 

 

There truly is nothing like the C-Max. I think they messed up selling it purely on MPG -- and by giving the 2014s taller gearing for an MPG bump, since taller gearing generally means acceleration takes a hit -- because the COMBINATION of a rewarding driving experience, great practicality AND great MPG is what makes the car compelling.

 

That is the sad truth.  The Cmax is a unique and very good vehicle.  The urge to beat the Prius in order to make marketing hay has bitten Ford in the backside twice over.

 

I am in my Cmax for the long term, and bought the extended warranty in case of true reliability issues - which have not arisen so far in 1.5 years of driving.  Maybe the market will redeem the Cmax in longer term consumer feedback,etc., at lease we can hope so

[Laurel]

I think this is a complex issue with complex problems within Ford.  Somehow they dropped the ball in other ways than the mileage issue with the C-Max.  We saw minimal advertising in western Canada, two local dealerships had little in the way of informed C-Max sales people, poorly informed customer service reps. in local service departments concerning C-Max issues.  We were not in the least bothered with the mileage issues, but we were very bothered by lack of knowledge at the dealerships concerning C-Max issues.  I noticed yesterday at our dealership that there is not one C-Max on the lot or in the show room that we could find when we walked around looking for a Lincoln SUV.  It is like they have written off the C-Max as a marketable product. Scary eh? 

[ptjones]

Hot Potato said:

 

 

That is the sad truth.  The Cmax is a unique and very good vehicle.  The urge to beat the Prius in order to make marketing hay has bitten Ford in the backside twice over.

 

I am in my Cmax for the long term, and bought the extended warranty in case of true reliability issues - which have not arisen so far in 1.5 years of driving.  Maybe the market will redeem the Cmax in longer term consumer feedback,etc., at lease we can hope so

I thought we researched this already and 2014 CMAX is the same as 2013 other than aero enhancements.

 

I think this is a complex issue with complex problems within Ford.  Somehow they dropped the ball in other ways than the mileage issue with the C-Max.  We saw minimal advertising in western Canada, two local dealerships had little in the way of informed C-Max sales people, poorly informed customer service reps. in local service departments concerning C-Max issues.  We were not in the least bothered with the mileage issues, but we were very bothered by lack of knowledge at the dealerships concerning C-Max issues.  I noticed yesterday at our dealership that there is not one C-Max on the lot or in the show room that we could find when we walked around looking for a Lincoln SUV.  It is like they have written off the C-Max as a marketable product. Scary eh? 

My Dealer just got an allocation for their first 2014 CMAX  and he's wondering why he would want one now when the 2015's will be out in few months. It kinda looks like only Electric Dealers got the 2014's. ;)

 

Paul

[John Sparks]

I thought we researched this already and 2014 CMAX is the same as 2013 other than aero enhancements.

 

 

My Dealer just got an allocation for their first 2014 CMAX  and he's wondering why he would want one now when the 2015's will be out in few months. It kinda looks like only Electric Dealers got the 2014's. ;)

 

Paul

We've had several 14 models and we're not an electric dealer, wish we were, would really like to be able to sell the Energi.

 

I don't want to take your head off. (You seem like a "good egg" to me!) I am at 10,000 miles @ 38.7 mpg which considering that I haven't gotten a cover or a block heater is not bad.. got the car on MLK Day.   I promise I have never complained about my "low" mileage (best I have ever had over an all highway 75 mph drive of 80 mi/daily! ) I also love My Ford Touch! But my complaint remains with the fact that the reliaility of the car is so highly questionable. If something goes wrong will my dealer's mechanic staff actually know what to do?   Edmunds and consumer union's reliability rating is killing me.... I will put 100000 miles on a car in 4 years... so I am praying the batteries will hold on til 175,000 lol I can dream!

 

I really love the car... I just wish others did too!

 

With the battery being Li-ion, I don't think we'll see too many battery issues. The great thing about this battery chemistry is that it is not sensitive to charge cycles, no battery memory effect. We also determined there is a happy zone. Don't allow the battery to charge above a certain point or discharge below a certain level and the battery will last indefinitely. The computer on the Cmax maintains the battery and does a meticulous job of it. It charges every chance it gets. Not to mention that the battery being Li-ion is what gives the motor the power to operate independently at higher speeds.

 

Ford has designed the battery to last the life of the vehicle. I feel pretty confident the battery will not be an issue but only time will tell.

[ptjones]

So far so good at 64Kmi. :)

 

Paul

[C-MaxSea]

Daveymars said:  "I really love the car... I just wish others did too!"

 

98% (or is that 99%?) of us do !!!  :victory:  (The tail wags the dog here sometimes. ;))

 

(17 months, $ 0.00 maintenance & repair costs, Zero inconvenience, 100% reliable for what matters, 90% reliable for what does not matter)

Edited June 20, 2014 by C-MaxSea

[Adrian_L]

I think this is a complex issue with complex problems within Ford.  Somehow they dropped the ball in other ways than the mileage issue with the C-Max.  We saw minimal advertising in western Canada, two local dealerships had little in the way of informed C-Max sales people, poorly informed customer service reps. in local service departments concerning C-Max issues.  We were not in the least bothered with the mileage issues, but we were very bothered by lack of knowledge at the dealerships concerning C-Max issues.  I noticed yesterday at our dealership that there is not one C-Max on the lot or in the show room that we could find when we walked around looking for a Lincoln SUV.  It is like they have written off the C-Max as a marketable product. Scary eh? 

 

Tell me about it.  I have yet to see a Canadian TV commercial specifically plugging the C-max.  When I test drove the car at Key West Ford (British Columbia), the salesperson didn't know what the green "engine on, car ready" light meant.  She also was "pretty sure" that the panoramic roof opened if you found the right button.   As to my question about what was the pure-electric range of a fully-charged Energi, she didn't know and called out the salesman who was apparently the electric car expert.  His answer:  "well the car uses gas and electric, not just electric".   Gee thanks.  I got most of my info from the Ford website and online reviews.

 

We ended up getting a Hybrid because of the non-existant trunk space of the Energi and the price difference.  I still think the Energi is a cool vehicle but I'll wait until battery tech improves and prices drop.

[ptjones]

Tell me about it.  I have yet to see a Canadian TV commercial specifically plugging the C-max.  When I test drove the car at Key West Ford (British Columbia), the salesperson didn't know what the green "engine on, car ready" light meant.  She also was "pretty sure" that the panoramic roof opened if you found the right button.   As to my question about what was the pure-electric range of a fully-charged Energi, she didn't know and called out the salesman who was apparently the electric car expert.  His answer:  "well the car uses gas and electric, not just electric".   Gee thanks.  I got most of my info from the Ford website and online reviews.

 

We ended up getting a Hybrid because of the non-existant trunk space of the Energi and the price difference.  I still think the Energi is a cool vehicle but I'll wait until battery tech improves and prices drop.

I think it wouldn't be to much longer when our current size battery will be able to go 10mi.from the information I have been reading. IMO :)

 

Paul

[fbov]

...Ford has designed the battery to last the life of the vehicle. I feel pretty confident the battery will not be an issue but only time will tell.

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?doc_id=256425&dfpPParams=ind_184,industry_auto,bid_318,aid_256425&dfpLayout=blog

 

And here's the data behind it...

 

Frank

[Adrian_L]

So far so good at 64Kmi. :)

 

Paul

 

64,000 miles in a 2013 vehicle?!  Do you drive to Alaska and back every day?

 

All joking aside, have you notice any drop in mileage as the battery ages?

 

[ptjones]

64,000 miles in a 2013 vehicle?!  Do you drive to Alaska and back every day?

 

All joking aside, have you notice any drop in mileage as the battery ages?

 

Well lets see, 3 trips to CA, 4 to AZ, 2 to CO, 3 to FL and etc.  I don't think I've seen much drop in Batt. Performance and my MPG's are at least as good as last years. I almost never have a completely charged HVB.  I have some aeromods I'm putting on MADMAX to get a little more mpg's toward my goal of 1Kmi. on a tank. I need about a 7% improvement to make it. :)

 

Paul

[fordfan82]

At least Ford is compensating C-max owners. We have yet to test drive one but from what I've read on this forum there's a lot of happy owners.

[Laurel]

Tell me about it.  I have yet to see a Canadian TV commercial specifically plugging the C-max.  When I test drove the car at Key West Ford (British Columbia), the salesperson didn't know what the green "engine on, car ready" light meant.  She also was "pretty sure" that the panoramic roof opened if you found the right button.   As to my question about what was the pure-electric range of a fully-charged Energi, she didn't know and called out the salesman who was apparently the electric car expert.  His answer:  "well the car uses gas and electric, not just electric".   Gee thanks.  I got most of my info from the Ford website and online reviews.

 

We ended up getting a Hybrid because of the non-existant trunk space of the Energi and the price difference.  I still think the Energi is a cool vehicle but I'll wait until battery tech improves and prices drop.

I just don't understand how the dealerships can be so poorly informed about the C-Maxes. When we ordered our C-Max we had a whiz bang sales woman who had participated in training sessions with the C-Max.  By the time our car arrived, she had left Ford and we encountered indifferent sales people with zip in the way of knowledge about our car. Thanks goodness for this forum as this is where we learned to drive the car so to speak. We had the panorama roof scenario too LOL.

[fbov]

+1 here at least!