High Transmission Temperature

[ptjones]

Decided to Post this here too:

 

I have 98Kmi on my CMAX now and the Trans has gone bad.  I think it  is prudent to have a warranty period for as long as you plan on owning the car. I heard replacing the Trans is about $6K. I have been monitoring my Trans Fluid temp since 90Kmi and it has been above 150*F on the FWY.  Most members seam to be 150*F or below.  I complained to my Dealer, but he said he couldn't do anything until it put out a code or made noise.  7kmi later it started to make a noise and 400mi after that I stopped at Rich FORD in Albuquerque, NM  and they verified it was the Trans going bad. I was on my way to AZ and decided to continue on another 350mi to Williams,AZ.  Five days later I started to go back home to GA, but decided to stop at Rich FORD again, because the noise had gotten much louder and I was afraid I couldn't make it home. I had 1100mi on the Trans since it started to make noise and I didn't want to get stranded out in the middle of no-ware.  Another benefit was Rich FORD had recently replaced a Trans in FFH so they had some experience which is very good.  FORD is paying for an Explorer Rental until the car is fixed. I will have to drive back to Rich FORD to get it.

 

What I have learned from this is:

 

1. Make sure you don't let your car get out of Warranty.

 

2. If you do mostly City driving you may never have this problem, Trans gets warmer after extended high speed driving.  I have 82% HWY driving.

 

3. The only thing that makes scents to me is that the trans pump impeller fails so Trans Fluid doesn't circulate thru cooler causing TFT to go up. I believe eventually debris ware teeth and bearings.

 

4. You can test your Trans cooler lines to see if you might have a problem by reaching down from the top of ICE compartment in front of Trans to the two cooling lines coming out of Trans.  If one line is noticeably warmer than the other you are probably OK. If they are the same temp you probably have a problem.  You also can use Digital IR Thermometer to do the same thing.

 

5. It may take upto 20Kmi to start to manifest symptoms for this problem  It is covered by 8yr/100Kmi Hybrid parts Warranty .  ;)

 

Paul    

[SPL Tech]

Decided to Post this here too:

 

I have 98Kmi on my CMAX now and the Trans has gone bad.  I think it  is prudent to have a warranty period for as long as you plan on owning the car. I heard replacing the Trans is about $6K. I have been monitoring my Trans Fluid temp since 90Kmi and it has been above 150*F on the FWY.  Most members seam to be 150*F or below.  I complained to my Dealer, but he said he couldn't do anything until it put out a code or made noise.  7kmi later it started to make a noise and 400mi after that I stopped at Rich FORD in Albuquerque, NM  and they verified it was the Trans going bad. I was on my way to AZ and decided to continue on another 350mi to Williams,AZ.  Five days later I started to go back home to GA, but decided to stop at Rich FORD again, because the noise had gotten much louder and I was afraid I couldn't make it home. I had 1100mi on the Trans since it started to make noise and I didn't want to get stranded out in the middle of no-ware.  Another benefit was Rich FORD had recently replaced a Trans in FFH so they had some experience which is very good.  FORD is paying for an Explorer Rental until the car is fixed. I will have to drive back to Rich FORD to get it.

 

What I have learned from this is:

 

1. Make sure you don't let your car get out of Warranty.

 

2. If you do mostly City driving you may never have this problem, Trans gets warmer after extended high speed driving.  I have 82% HWY driving.

 

3. The only thing that makes scents to me is that the trans pump impeller fails so Trans Fluid doesn't circulate thru cooler causing TFT to go up. I believe eventually debris ware teeth and bearings.

 

4. You can test your Trans cooler lines to see if you might have a problem by reaching down from the top of ICE compartment in front of Trans to the two cooling lines coming out of Trans.  If one line is noticeably warmer than the other you are probably OK. If they are the same temp you probably have a problem.  You also can use Digital IR Thermometer to do the same thing.

 

5. It may take upto 20Kmi to start to manifest symptoms for this problem  It is covered by 8yr/100Kmi Hybrid parts Warranty .  ;)

 

Paul    

So did they tell you what the cause was?

[ptjones]

So did they tell you what the cause was?

No, but I will ask them.  It would be interesting to see what the Trans Fluid looks like. :)

 

Paul

[SPL Tech]

FOr what its worth, today I used FORSCAN and a 400 mile highway drive to check my TFT. I drove at 77 MPH steady in 65F ambient, and after 45 min the fluid climbed slowly to 170 - 175F and stayed there for the rest of the entire drive. I checked the same on a trip last month and I got about 168F for 400 miles too. So it seems the idea that the fluid is 20 - 40F below coolant temp is correct. I think 170F for TFT is pretty typical, and I dont see where you think most member are below 150F. There are only three people that reported in on this thread, one of which was me. So you're gathering that info from one sample. I did say my TFT was like 130F a few pages back, but I also said that was on a 9 mile city drive, which is much different than highway driving. I dont think it's reasonable to expect the TFT to stay below 150F on the highway for long drives. 170 seems more like it. Even your 190 is still well within limits. The max temp is like 308F, and most trannys run about 20F below coolent temp, so anything in the 170 - 185 range for extended highway driving seems well within normal.

 

Also, you have to test for a minimum of an hour of constant freeway speeds (70 - 85 MPH). It takes FOREVER for the tranny to reach operating temp, and a 20 mile and then 10 mile test is not sufficient.

Edited May 5, 2015 by SPL Tech

[SPL Tech]

Also, if you are getting 231*F, TFT 189*F, that seems to scale with what I get. I was at about ~171F TFT  max and 217F ICE max. Yours seems a tad on the high side, but not by more than 10F. Now, that 250F you said you got in the first thread, that's a problem. But 190F, I would attribute that to the grill blocks. The higher the ICE temp the higher the TFT as I dont think the Cmax uses an intercooler, it pumps the TFT through the radiator block from the ICE to cool it, so hotter ICE means hotter TFT. That is strange that you said the cooler lines were cool to the touch when the TFT was hot though. Ill check mine. Where are the lines at? Can I get to them without lifting the car?

Edited May 5, 2015 by SPL Tech

[ptjones]

So did they tell you what the cause was?

Service writer said that they would put in a request to FORD to find out what caused the Trans to fail.

 

There are two Aluminum 1/2" tubes coming out near the bottom of Trans going to the front to Trans Fluid Cooler. If you shine a light down to the bottom of Trans you will see the tubes and you can work your hand down to the tubes without burning yourself to check the temp.

 

ICE temp and TFT aren't necessarily related.  As hybridbear has mentioned in different thread he got high TFT (220*F) going down hill ,, but going downhill  would make  ICE WT go down too. I don't think the computer monitors TFT which is a problem when TFT is high and ICE WT is below 215*F so the shutters aren't open.  TFT runs cooler with Grill Covers on from my experience, they cause the WT to get above 214*F  causing the shutters to open and allow some  cool air to get through. :)

 

Paul

[SPL Tech]

Checked the tubes today. They were warm, but not hot enough that I couldent hold onto them for a long period. I drove 60 MPH steady for hours today and the tranny maxed out at about 153F today. 67 ambient. It seems those lines dont get that hot. Warm, sure. Really hot, not really, not unless your tranny is really hot. One was slightly hotter than the other, as expected. I dont think you will see a massive temp difference between the two, the intercooler just keeps the overall temp of the tranny down, but it's not an A/C unit, it's not that effective at cooling liquid. 

[ptjones]

Checked the tubes today. They were warm, but not hot enough that I couldent hold onto them for a long period. I drove 60 MPH steady for hours today and the tranny maxed out at about 153F today. 67 ambient. It seems those lines dont get that hot. Warm, sure. Really hot, not really, not unless your tranny is really hot. One was slightly hotter than the other, as expected. I dont think you will see a massive temp difference between the two, the intercooler just keeps the overall temp of the tranny down, but it's not an A/C unit, it's not that effective at cooling liquid. 

My Trans was 180-190*F at those speeds and temps after hours of driving. Higher with higher outside temps. :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

Latest news is Rich Ford has gotten new Trans and hope to have ready mid to late next week. :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

I got a picture texted to me from Dealer of my ICE/Trans assembly out of the car. So today they should be removing and installing new Trans. Hopefully they will be able to get started installing ICE/Trans back in car also. They said they would be finished friday, we will see. :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

The latest finished date is next Tuesday Now. ;)  As long as It is done right and I don't have any problems I'm good. :)

 

Paul

Edited May 16, 2015 by ptjones

[ptjones]

I just got notice that my car is ready so I'm driving back to Albuquerque tomorrow to pick it up Wednesday afternoon. Will be back Friday evening. It will be nice to be back driving MadMax again. I'm only getting 21mpg in the Explorer. ;) 

 

Paul 

[FordService]

I just got notice that my car is ready so I'm driving back to Albuquerque tomorrow to pick it up Wednesday afternoon. Will be back Friday evening. It will be nice to be back driving MadMax again. I'm only getting 21mpg in the Explorer. ;)

 

Paul 

Ptjones,

 

Thanks for sharing the good news, and please keep us posted!  :)

 

Tricia 

[Bill-N]

I just got notice that my car is ready so I'm driving back to Albuquerque tomorrow to pick it up Wednesday afternoon. Will be back Friday evening. It will be nice to be back driving MadMax again. I'm only getting 21mpg in the Explorer. ;)

 

Paul 

 

Make sure they properly snapped the shift cable in place lest you become "stuck in park" which is apparently what happened to me.

[ptjones]

Thanks for the heads up. :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

Here is the feed back from SW Old Trans Fluid was dark and smelled burnt, Trans is warranted for 12m/12kmi. and they did flush the oil cooler. :)

 

Paul

[scottwood2]

Here is the feed back from SW Old Trans Fluid was dark and smelled burnt, Trans is warranted for 12m/12kmi. and they did flush the oil cooler. :)

 

Paul

Isn't this part of the 8 yr warranty? 

[Bill-N]

Isn't this part of the 8 yr warranty? 

 

According to my dealer, it's the greater of 1) 12 mths or 12k mi, or 2) the remainder of the relevant new car warranty.

[plus 3 golfer]

According to my dealer, it's the greater of 1) 12 mths or 12k mi, or 2) the remainder of the relevant new car warranty.

Yes, I posted this before.   The above applies to parts replaced by dealer at no cost to the owner.  Also as in the link for parts paid for by the owner:

 

"On October 1, 2013 the Service Parts Warranty (SPW) Coverage on Ford Genuine & Motorcraft Parts replaced is increasing to 24 months and unlimited. Parts installed or sold by dealerships, or authorized distributors, to retail and wholesale customers qualify for the following warranty coverage:

Cars and Trucks (under 600 series medium duty trucks)

Dealer-Installed

• Parts and labor to replace defective part within 24 months/unlimited miles

• Towing is covered, if required; buy only if the vehicle is not covered under the Roadside Assistance Program.

• Warranty begins from date of installation, as noted on the vehicle owner repair order.

Sold Over-the-Counter to a Retail Purchaser

• Part warranty is 24 months/unlimited miles

• For a retail purchaser, warranty begins on the date of sale as stated on the OTC invoice.

• Labor is not reimbursable" - _{Ford Service Parts Warranty (SPW)}

[stevedebi]

According to my dealer, it's the greater of 1) 12 mths or 12k mi, or 2) the remainder of the relevant new car warranty.

... and the relevant new car warranty is 8 years / 100 K on the CVT.

[ptjones]

BTW RICH FORD was working on second FFH Trans for a total of 3 Hybrid Trans now. I wondering if we are seeing a trend? 

 

I'm back in GA now and didn't have any problems coming home, but I was able to get my TFT upto 182*F with Grill Covers on and A/C on. I do have three 3" holes in lower grill and WT was 180-190*F so not even getting to operating range of 202-212*F.  I took lower cover off and TFT dropped to 160*F range, but WT dropped to 170-180*F range. 

 

If you are concerned about getting the best MPG's you need to have WT above 202*F and ideally have WT above 215*F so shutters will open to allow airflow to cool Trans and DC Inverter coolers. The only way for that to happen is to have Grill Covers on. With the FFH it might work by having Center grill covered and leave bottom one open. It is useful to have ScanGaugeII or Torque Gauges to monitor temps. Now when you use the A/C the shutters open and the fan turns on cooling everything off including WT which lowers MPG's.  You will need to do some testing to come up with the best solution. 

 

I'm looking at making an spoiler for the bottom front of car and have an air duct to go through lower ICE cover and blow cool air on Trans at HWY speeds.

 

BTW I checked my Trans cooling lines and sure enough input line is a lot hotter than the output line now so Trans pump is working.  Also I averaged 47mpg coming back from Albuquerque with headwinds all the way thanks to a lot of drafting when I could. 

 

Paul

Edited May 23, 2015 by ptjones

[obob]

 

BTW RICH FORD was working on second FFH Trans for a total of 3 Hybrid Trans now. I wondering if we are seeing a trend? 

 

 

 

I am wondering is there a possibility this is not a trend.  I am not that optimistic.

 

The way I look at it, people that drive a lot and their transmissions need to be replaced while under warranty may be the fortunate ones, for a $7000 bill would total a car in a lot of cases and if not totalled be quite a shock for a car that is suppose to save money.

 

Maybe Ford will extend the warranty for C-Maxes with the original transmission.  ( I am not holding my breath. )

 

I wish I had bought the C-Max with the manual transmission - oh, never mind. 

 

NOTE: I am referring to 2013 C-Maxes build before the transmission modifications.

Edited May 23, 2015 by obob

[plus 3 golfer]

 

BTW RICH FORD was working on second FFH Trans for a total of 3 Hybrid Trans now. I wondering if we are seeing a trend? 

 

...

 

 

I hope not. But my guess is that we are seeing a trend.  ;)  Time will tell.

 

If we are, there will be a hit to resale value for the early adopters of the C-Maxes.   As Ford has modified the transmission (likely sometime in 2013) to supposedly mitigate the issue, we can hope that Ford will offer a "silent warranty" for this issue after 100 k miles as a potential $6/7+ k repair will make the car pretty much worthless.  Better yet Ford should extend the Hybrid warranty on the early transmissions given there is a know defect to 10 years, 150 k miles.  Do the "right thing" Ford as you have done in the past.

[ptjones]

My TFT are going up, yesterday always on FWY 192*F. I'm wondering about the Trans cooler, I'm going to get some thermocouples to monitor cooler line temps. ;)

 

Paul

[stevedebi]

 

BTW RICH FORD was working on second FFH Trans for a total of 3 Hybrid Trans now. I wondering if we are seeing a trend? 

 

...

I think that TSB on the transmission is affecting the ones you are mentioning, rather than it being something wrong with the entire design. Ford has been doing the hybrid transmission for 11 years now, with the same basic design. I figure something got messed up in some of the production, so they issued the TSB, but I doubt that all the cars will be affected.