Why are C-Max reliability ratings low? MyFord or more fundamental?

[gnc]

Hi, I hope that you can help a forum newbie.

 

I have a 2014 SEL on loan for several days and have enjoyed it enough to consider buying. But reviews rate this car well below average and bad value used. Anyone care to explain? CU says "Electronics" are awful, and as a 1999 Taurus wagon owner I know all about random wipers, failed AC, etc. although the rest of that (analog) car has been solid and cheap to maintain. If electronics means just the inept MyFord+Sync "entertainment center" then I can live with that failure because I find radio vapid. I could get an SE to avoid it, but that model has unappealing interior aesthetics to me. So it's SEL or elsewhere if the rest of the electrical hardware sucks. Please enlighten me

 

Thank you

[Adrian_L]

It was SEL or nothing for me too.  Mainly for aesthetic reasons but also for leather and NAV.  My wife and I laugh over how useless the voice recognition is but other than that we are thoroughly pleased after a year of ownership. 

 

There's a discussion of the Consumer Reports assessment of the '13 Hybrid on the forum somewhere.  From what I remember the "unreliable" label was unfairly based on myFord dissatisfaction.

[Kelleytoons]

First of all, CU has, for the last 20 years, basically been a joke.  Those of us who know of what we are talking about (in my case, cameras, electronics, stereos, etc.) know there is absolutely NOTHING reliable about how they rate things.  I subscribed to CU for about 20 years so it's not like I'm coming from a place of prejudice.  It's just that their testing facilities and methodologies are about as unscientific as they come.

 

The truth is that CU made their big name with their rollover "discovery" of the Rav4 which, in retrospect, was rigged and admitted as rigged by CU themselves.  So they are basically whores whose opinion only the very ignorant would respect.  I wish I had strong feelings about them to report, though <g>.

 

Now, if you go to more honest sites you will find many reviews that place the C-Max as at or above the ratings of most vehicles in its class.  Yes, there are some folks who hate SYNC (I happen to love it, though) but there are just as many that hate just about any electronics in any car package (just find any typical one and you'll see).

 

Talking to people on forums such as these who own these vehicles can help, but you also have to remember that by and large folks who come to these kinds of forums are like those in hospitals (if all you ever frequented was hospitals you'd think there were no well people anywhere).  Yet you can see, time and again, how many of us love our Max and it's hard to argue with those of us who have had the experience and are passionate about it.

 

In the end only you can make the best decision you can about any choice -- a car or a house (or a spouse) is obviously a much bigger decision than almost any other one you make in life, but unlike the latter two it's still a bit easier to trade it in and get something else if you are truly disappointed (there's actually no way to win with the other two -- but in those cases I certainly wouldn't trust a consumer magazine to tell me what to do).

 

Best of luck to you -- if I had read negative things I wouldn't be driving around the best vehicle I've owned in over a half a century.

[SPL Tech]

It's difficult to determine vehicle relibility as every sourse says something different. I have seen so many relibility reviews on the CMAX and they said everything from nearly perfect to well below adverage. The truth is NO ONE knows how reliable the CMAX will be as it has not been around long enough. I can say Ford as a whole is typically considered unreliable (as are most domestics such as Dodge, Chevy, ect). If you look at every model of every car Ford makes over every year starting from 2000, overall Ford is below adverage. However, that does not mean the CMAX is below adverage. The CMAX could be above adverage-we dont really know.

I would avoid looking at any one sourse for relibility data. The best option is to look at a site that takes info from many actual users. True Delta is one of those sites, and probably the best one out there IMO.

 

So far True Delta ranks the CMAX in the green and considered it reliable.

 

http://www.truedelta.com/Ford-C-MAX/reliability-1010

 

HOWEVER, note that the rated reliability of a car on True Delta almost always declines with time. This is because True Delta takes the number of reported incidents and averages it among the total number of drivers in its database. As cars get older people report more problems and the reliability rating goes down typically.

Also, keep in mind the types of problems reported. On TD, the most common problem reported was "electrical," which mostly includes MFT issues and 12v battery issues (I suspect anyway).

 

http://www.truedelta.com/Ford-C-MAX/problems-1010/2013

 

If you look at the important stuff: powertrain and engine, those values are low which shows not many people are having serious, expensive issues with the CMAX (or at least they are not reporting them anyway).

 

For comparison, here is the CMAX compared to the Prius. The Prius is well known to be fairly reliable (as are Toyotas in general), so it gives you a reference.

 

http://www.truedelta.com/Ford-C-MAX/reliability-1010/vs-Prius-272

Edited March 10, 2015 by SPL Tech

[plus 3 golfer]

Hi, I hope that you can help a forum newbie.

 

I have a 2014 SEL on loan for several days and have enjoyed it enough to consider buying. But reviews rate this car well below average and bad value used. Anyone care to explain? CU says "Electronics" are awful, and as a 1999 Taurus wagon owner I know all about random wipers, failed AC, etc. although the rest of that (analog) car has been solid and cheap to maintain. If electronics means just the inept MyFord+Sync "entertainment center" then I can live with that failure because I find radio vapid. I could get an SE to avoid it, but that model has unappealing interior aesthetics to me. So it's SEL or elsewhere if the rest of the electrical hardware sucks. Please enlighten me

 

Thank you

IMO, the electrical black circle relates primarily to the 12 V dead battery issue.  We don't know whether Ford has yet found the underlying cause(s) but it appears that it still occurs on MY 2014.  If you have the issue, the car is not reliable and you will likely want to get rid of it.  If you don't have the issue, the car is a rock solid, dependable vehicle.  The audio black circle is likely due to the MFT and navigation issues which should for the most part been fixed with several recalls.  I believe if you remove the above issues, the C-Max would have a very high overall reliability rating.

 

The big ticket items like the hybrid trans-axle, the HV battery and HV electronics have been very reliable and are covered by an 8 year / 100k mile warranty.  CR likes the C-Max and rates it at 77 out of 100 in it's 50+ tests and evaluations in fuel efficient hatchbacks - higher than the Priis, Volt, and Leaf.  The BMW I3 is higher at a 79 rating.

 

IMO, get the SEL as it seems to be less prone to the dead battery issue.  

Edited March 10, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer

[anaphora68]

It's been covered, but I'll reiterate, that the electronic rating comes from people being frustrated with My Ford Touch. IMHO, the system is not half bad. You need to take the time to use it. 

 

Honestly, the EnTune system in my wife's 2015 RAV is horrible. It's buggy, slow and doesn't work. The My Ford Touch system has its quirks, but it picks up my phone every time I start the car, and the system is intuitive, for me at least. 

 

I have a used 2013 Ford C-Max SEL. No issues with the battery. 

[gnc]

I appreciate these quick responses, thank you! Seems like MyFord problems are history.  But given the battery/electronics bug for a minority of cars, I'm extremely reluctant to pull the trigger on a used purchase. The loaded SEL I have on loan through tomorrow is former fleet so presumably didn't have the battery problem as it racked up ~23K miles. But it has features that I don't want that would likely break in S. Arizona heat. I may instead track the SE and put a few $ into the moonroof.

 

For now I'll probably just monitor how Ford addresses the 12V battery failures (a really dumb thing to go bad, but I've always been suspicious of Ford wiring QA given Taurus stupidities!) I'll need car for 10+ yrs like my Taurus. I've looked around and see nothing that appeals as much ... fun to drive, excellent features, one potentially fatal flaw apparently introduced by the non-Euro mod, the rest seems debugged. 

[ScubaDadMiami]

IMO, the electrical black circle relates primarily to the 12 V dead battery issue.  We don't know whether Ford has yet found the underlying cause(s) but it appears that it still occurs on MY 2014.  If you have the issue, the car is not reliable and you will likely want to get rid of it.  If you don't have the issue, the car is a rock solid, dependable vehicle.  The audio black circle is likely due to the MFT and navigation issues which should for the most part been fixed with several recalls.  I believe if you remove the above issues, the C-Max would have a very high overall reliability rating.

 

The big ticket items like the hybrid trans-axle, the HV battery and HV electronics have been very reliable and are covered by an 8 year / 100k mile warranty.  CR likes the C-Max and rates it at 77 out of 100 in it's 50+ tests and evaluations in fuel efficient hatchbacks - higher than the Priis, Volt, and Leaf.  The BMW I3 is higher at a 79 rating.

 

IMO, get the SEL as it seems to be less prone to the dead battery issue.  

This is an accurate evaluation.

[gnc]

Returned the 2014 SEL loaner and drove a used 2013 SE. I decided that I could live w/ the less cluttered console w/ fewer electronics to break. However, the SE rear seat is awful ... cheap, zero cushion. SEL is much better even with its micron thick 'leather coat'. I looked around for a scrap SEL to swap out the rear seats ;) but none close by. I also looked at a pano roof, decided to pass.

 

Deal killer for this SE: CarFax reports that it had one battery failure/replacement and an unexplained 'customer loaner' request to Ford that implies to me an off-warranty damage repair. So, we'll pass on this one. I can't justify new, so we'll keep looking for a former fleet SEL w/o useless to me built-in NAV (I prefer tablet) and backup camera. May be a long search ...

[Kelleytoons]

I actually really LIKE the NAV system -- once you get used to it I think you'll find it can be better than anything else out there.

 

The key are the voice commands - you never take your hands off the wheel and you can navigate to any address or destination easily (again, once you get used to it).  To me, in fact, that's the real selling point of the whole MFT system (change radio stations, play whatever song you want, adjust temps, etc, etc. all without looking or touching any screen).  It's a better Siri than Siri (which I also happen to like a lot).

[Adrian_L]

I've tried Garmin, Magellan and Audi nav.  The C-max NAV is better than all three in my opinion. 

 

I haven't been so lucky with the voice thing---maybe what's left of my English accent is throwing it off.  I might have to put on a Texas drawl and see what happens.

[stevedebi]

Returned the 2014 SEL loaner and drove a used 2013 SE. I decided that I could live w/ the less cluttered console w/ fewer electronics to break. However, the SE rear seat is awful ... cheap, zero cushion. SEL is much better even with its micron thick 'leather coat'. I looked around for a scrap SEL to swap out the rear seats ;) but none close by. I also looked at a pano roof, decided to pass.

 

Deal killer for this SE: CarFax reports that it had one battery failure/replacement and an unexplained 'customer loaner' request to Ford that implies to me an off-warranty damage repair. So, we'll pass on this one. I can't justify new, so we'll keep looking for a former fleet SEL w/o useless to me built-in NAV (I prefer tablet) and backup camera. May be a long search ...

I find the Nav unit to be fairly good - use with caution as always. It is way better than the one in our 2014 VW Passat. It takes a lot of operator training to get the voice recognition to do what you want, and I still don't like that it can't compose text message (my phone can do this, and the C-Max can read text to voice, so it would be possible to at least "reply" to incoming texts).

 

I ended up getting an Energi, with the 303a package. I don't use the auto-park, but the all around parking sensors are coming to be very useful. I can get in a really small space using them. The Pano roof I would not have ordered, though it does look nice and warms the car in winter months. Basically, there were only two on the lot in the Ice Storm color when I was shopping - a 302a and a 303a, at about the same price due to dealer add ons to the 302a.

[SPL Tech]

The nav is okay, but still inferior to aftermarket. One annoying thing is that OEM is always WAY more expensive than aftermarket, but always half the quality. My $200 Garmin has more features, is easier to use and quicker to respond than my $2000 Cmax nav unit. That's always how it goes.

 

So I would NEVER pay for OEM nav if I was buying brand new (which I would also never do), as an aftermaket unit is only $200 and superior in quality.

Edited March 26, 2015 by SPL Tech

[Kelleytoons]

I thought this as well, but I do like the NAV *much* better than my $200 Garmin (which now lives in our Durango).  For one thing, there is the aforementioned voice commands -- I can easily say where I want to go and it *never* makes a mistake (every now and then I misspeak and have to start again, but by and large it's SO much faster than the Garmin it's a true joy).   But it's just so much nicer to have it built in as well. 

 

About the only thing I miss is the ability to use custom voices on the Garmin (and actually the Garmin is much worse in this regard than the other major GPS maker).  I used to have some fun celebrity voices and I miss them.  But I don't miss anything else about the Garmin (and I've had at least 12 units starting with the B/W Garmin over 15 years ago so I have a bit of experience with them).

Edited March 26, 2015 by Kelleytoons

[Adrian_L]

The nav is okay, but still inferior to aftermarket. One annoying thing is that OEM is always WAY more expensive than aftermarket, but always half the quality. My $200 Garmin has more features, is easier to use and quicker to respond than my $2000 Cmax nav unit. That's always how it goes.

 

So I would NEVER pay for OEM nav if I was buying brand new (which I would also never do), as an aftermaket unit is only $200 and superior in quality.

 

Frankly, the hassle of putting it up on the window, turning it on and plugging it in, and doing the reverse when you leave is not worth it.   I don't miss my Garmin.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Adrian_L

[SPL Tech]

I thought this as well, but I do like the NAV *much* better than my $200 Garmin (which now lives in our Durango).  For one thing, there is the aforementioned voice commands -- I can easily say where I want to go and it *never* makes a mistake (every now and then I misspeak and have to start again, but by and large it's SO much faster than the Garmin it's a true joy).   But it's just so much nicer to have it built in as well. 

 

About the only thing I miss is the ability to use custom voices on the Garmin (and actually the Garmin is much worse in this regard than the other major GPS maker).  I used to have some fun celebrity voices and I miss them.  But I don't miss anything else about the Garmin (and I've had at least 12 units starting with the B/W Garmin over 15 years ago so I have a bit of experience with them).

How do you use voice to enter in an address? I always have to do it manually which is slow.

[Kelleytoons]

You just say "Navigation - Destination - Street Address" (actually you can even say "Address" but it's more reliable to say the whole thing).

 

It already knows your state so it will simply ask you to say the address, including the city.  So you say something like "1234 Appleton Way, Venice" and it will find it and then you say "Set as Destination" (your other choices are to set as waypoint -- you can also just touch the "Dest" button on the screen at that point and that's what I usually do if I'm in a hurry).

 

If there are multiple addresses that match (sometimes there is an east and west on that same street, for example, and you might not have specified it when you said the address) it will display the ones that match and you can just say "Line 1" (or whatever line it is).  I rarely have to do it.  My wife (who has less clear diction -- or doesn't speak as strongly as I've been trained to do as a formal speaker) often gets this because it doesn't *quite* understand her (so sometimes there are several street numbers it will list if it's confused).  

 

It's very quick -- I can set the address in the time it would take me to simply enter the street number in our Garmin.  Perhaps the very latest (our Garmin is about a year old) Garmin's also have voice commands, but to me this just blows Garmin out of the water.  It's also better, in my experience, than even using Google Maps or Siri (although Siri does allow you to be a lot less specific -- you can just say "Find the nearest Olive Garden".  While it *might* be possible to do something like this with Nav, I haven't had a lot of luck with getting to destinations I don't know the address for).

[WheNRG]

Frankly, the hassle of putting it up on the window, turning it on and plugging it in, and doing the reverse when you leave is not worth it.   I don't miss my Garmin.

And with my Garmin, the hassle of it falling off the windshield, dislodging from the mount and sliding off the dash onto the floor at least once per trip. 

[Noah Harbinger]

I love the MyFord Touch. I can recognize its foibles, but I still love it. I absolutely hate the screenshots I have seen of the new system, it's ugly as sin. 

[bigalpha]

I never got used to the Nav.  Didn't like the input method and found it too hard to use.  It's much easier to prop my phone up in the MFT display and say "OK Google, directions to 123 Main Street".

[stevedebi]

I never got used to the Nav.  Didn't like the input method and found it too hard to use.  It's much easier to prop my phone up in the MFT display and say "OK Google, directions to 123 Main Street".

Be sure and turn on the Bluetooth audio so the directions come through the speakers...

[bigalpha]

Be sure and turn on the Bluetooth audio so the directions come through the speakers...

 Oh I do, my wife and I commute 3 hrs a day so we listen to a lootttttt of podcasts.  But hearing directions from the speakers only works if you're paired and the MFT is set to connect to the phone.  It doesn't work if you're listening to the radio.

Edited June 11, 2015 by bigalpha

[Generalbeluga]

There is a free download app called Destinations that will give you free navigation on your existing My Ford Touch system using the systems on-board GPS system.  I use it all the time and it works great!  It does't give you the full Nav screen display but, it spells out the next turn in a small display that appears in the upper right hand corner of the screen and gives you verbal countdowns in feet to next turn and visual directions in the small display.  It is all you really need to navigate around.  Besides, it's FREE!    

[stevedebi]

There is a free download app called Destinations that will give you free navigation on your existing My Ford Touch system using the systems on-board GPS system.  I use it all the time and it works great!  It does't give you the full Nav screen display but, it spells out the next turn in a small display that appears in the upper right hand corner of the screen and gives you verbal countdowns in feet to next turn and visual directions in the small display.  It is all you really need to navigate around.  Besides, it's FREE!    

Are you sure it isn't using the GPS module from your phone?

[kostby]

The in-car GPS is fully capable of providing coordinates for navigation using SYNC Services, even in a non-NAV-equipped car.

 

SEL and Energi SEL owners get a couple of years of SYNC Services included with the car purchase, and SE owners can subscribe to SYNC Services for $60 per year. It includes 20 operator-assisted phone calls, in addition to the navigation capabilities.

 

Once SYNC Services is registered and activated by the owner, MapQuest (and likely other apps) can send a list of destinations to SYNC Services for turn-by-turn navigation, even when the SYNC-equipped car is NOT equipped with Ford NAV.

 

Once a registered phone is connected via Bluetooth, you can use the SYNC-Lady for directions to the list of pre-loaded Destinations you've entered via MapQuest and then the SYNC-Lady gives directions.

 

In the SE, you don't get onscreen maps, just arrows on the center screen and the voice of the SYNC-lady directing you, provided the bluetooth-connected phone maintains a cellular connection to handle the data stream needed for updates as the car moves.

 

If I'm in a hurry, and don't have time to preselect a destination and upload, I use the MapQuest app on my Android phone and the phone GPS. If I connect it to the car via Bluetooth, it will read directions aloud through the car audio system, muting music to do so. Only problem I've had is that sometimes the MapQuest phone app crashes. Haven't had any problems with SYNC Services.

 

Contact the Ford IVT team rep  this forum for assistance.