Buy New 2014 SE or low mileage 2013 SEL

[jkumpire]

What a great forum!

 

I am looking seriously into buying a C-Max, it seems to be a perfect car/mini suv that I need. While I wish the highway MPG would be better, I hope to purchase a car ASAP.

 

However, I am stuck: I can get my hands on a new 2014 SE, as base a base SE can be. For about the same $$$ I can find a used 2013 SEL with power, leather seats and Sync.

 

The new C-Max comes with a full manufacture warranty of course, but since I am a tall individual with others who will be using the back seat, a power seat is better. The base SE audio is meh, and it looks clearl that you cannot upgrade it.

 

The used C-Max SEL has the power and leather seats, and a real sync system, and maybe a few more bells and whistles the '14 doesn't have. The problem is of course the normal warranty is about done, what kind of condition is the battery in, is an extendend warranty needed, and a few other minor issues.   

 

The safe roll of the dice is to get the new SE and ignore the 'extras'. But if I am going to own this for 10-12 years comfort does matter. 

 

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated and I can;t wait to get my hands on one of these things. Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Adrian_L]

Bienvenue,

 

Warranty on the '13 is about done?  How many miles is on it?

 

To be honest, the SEL interior was a big part of what we loved about the car.  My days of sticking Garmin on the windshield and removing it after every journey are so over.  Besides, the Ford NAV is much better IMO.

 

It is a hassle to re-adjust the driver's seat after someone 6" shorter than you has been in it.  It would be worse without power.

 

Adrian

[Kelleytoons]

Yeah, the warranty on the HV system is 8 years or 100,000 miles (varies by state, though) and if THAT warranty is done the car is just about as well.  I wouldn't buy it no matter how low the cost is.

 

Also -- things are seldom either/or.  Perhaps you are looking at two specific vehicles and thinking that's your only choice, but there are bound to be other used C-Maxes out there that may not have as great a compromise.  You may want to keep looking, particularly if it's a vehicle you intend to keep for that long (I would *definitely* not get any car without MFT -- others here may hate it, but I still think it's one of the nicest things about any Ford vehicle.  And it certainly seems to help with battery issues).

Edited March 24, 2015 by Kelleytoons

[jkumpire]

Yeah, the warranty on the HV system is 8 years or 100,000 miles (varies by state, though) and if THAT warranty is done the car is just about as well.  I wouldn't buy it no matter how low the cost is.

 

Also -- things are seldom either/or.  Perhaps you are looking at two specific vehicles and thinking that's your only choice, but there are bound to be other used C-Maxes out there that may not have as great a compromise.  You may want to keep looking, particularly if it's a vehicle you intend to keep for that long (I would *definitely* not get any car without MFT -- others here may hate it, but I still think it's one of the nicest things about any Ford vehicle.  And it certainly seems to help with battery issues).

MFT means what?

[scottwood2]

MFT = My Ford Touch.  That is the 8" screen.  I agree that I would not purchase the C-Max without MFT.  I like it a lot and I think it looks so much more high end than the standard display. 

[hybridbear]

I agree with the endorsement of MFT. Consumer Reports hates it, but we find it to be quite easy to use.

 

Check out prices on Flood Ford's website or Anderson-Koch Ford's website for how much an ESP would cost on the used 2013. You could consider the cost of buying the used 2013 and extending your bumper to bumper warranty out by 3 years compared to the cost of the new 2014.

 

What is the build date of the 2013? You can look it up in ETIS with the VIN. If the 2013 is a Job 1 or Job 2 car then it will still have the Lifetime Summary which is another reason to choose it over the new 2014.

[stevedebi]

What a great forum!

 

I am looking seriously into buying a C-Max, it seems to be a perfect car/mini suv that I need. While I wish the highway MPG would be better, I hope to purchase a car ASAP.

 

However, I am stuck: I can get my hands on a new 2014 SE, as base a base SE can be. For about the same $$$ I can find a used 2013 SEL with power, leather seats and Sync.

 

The new C-Max comes with a full manufacture warranty of course, but since I am a tall individual with others who will be using the back seat, a power seat is better. The base SE audio is meh, and it looks clearl that you cannot upgrade it.

 

The used C-Max SEL has the power and leather seats, and a real sync system, and maybe a few more bells and whistles the '14 doesn't have. The problem is of course the normal warranty is about done, what kind of condition is the battery in, is an extendend warranty needed, and a few other minor issues.   

 

The safe roll of the dice is to get the new SE and ignore the 'extras'. But if I am going to own this for 10-12 years comfort does matter. 

 

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated and I can;t wait to get my hands on one of these things. Thank you!

If it were me I'd pony up for a new SEL. With the deals and rebates right now, it is worth it, especially if you plan to keep it a long time. Get the car you really want.

 

I just saw 72 months at zero percent interest AND 3500 rebate on 2014s at my local dealer.

[Marc Smith]

bought my 2013 used about a year ago.  have put a little over 10K miles.    its the SEL but no NAV

 

car has only seen the inside of the dealer shop for the Seat back recall.  Otherwise  100% trouble free.  just did a 2500 hiway trip from Dc to florida and back.  averaged 40mpg...  fulle loaded up cruising between 65-75.

 

Nav is nice.  but  U've been using my iphone with blue tooth enabled  for my maps/directions.  with the holder right were the CD slot is.  well with in reach, and close to a power cord.

 

don't be afraid to look further away for a deal on a car.  I drove nearly a hundred miles to mine.

 

you might be able to find a used 2014 demo SEL  or a deal loaner car for cheap.

 

I agree with the others  though  in that  buy what you want.  power seats, leather, ect.  no fun getting in a car every day that you compromised on...

[SPL Tech]

Kelleytoons, on 24 Mar 2015 - 05:14 AM, said:

Yeah, the warranty on the HV system is 8 years or 100,000 miles (varies by state, though) and if THAT warranty is done the car is just about as well.

No way. 100k is nothing. If the Cmax cant last 100k, it's a crap product. Its not uncommon to see cars push 300k. I have seen semis with over 1M miles. There are people that put 100k on a car in two years. There is zero reason why a modern day car cant last 200k minimal.

 

Anyway, I would get the SEL hands down. There is no difference between the 2013 and 2014 other than one ends in the number 4 and the other ends in the number 3. Low mileage is overrated. You pay a MASSIVE premium for low mileage. I saved over $17,000 off the MSRP on my 2013 SEL because I bought it with 29k miles at just the right time at the right dealer. Original Ford MSRP was like $34k. I paid $6,500 with my tradein. Total was $16,500. $34k down to 16.5 just because I shopped around a ton and was willing to get one with 29k miles instead of zero.

Edited March 25, 2015 by SPL Tech

[Kelleytoons]

*Except* the battery will then need replacing -- although there's no (or not enough) hard data on how long our own HV batteries will last, there's a good reason the system is only warranted for that long.  Ford doesn't believe (or at least isn't willing to back it up with money, which is mostly the same thing) the battery won't need replacing, which is a *huge* cost right now.

 

Down the road this may not be as big an issue -- the guess is the batteries will then be cheaper (as I think they are with the Prius now, although I could be mistaken) and/or recycled so that cost is offset somewhat.  But RIGHT NOW if that C-Max has more than 100K miles on it it is in no way a good buy, which is all I was saying (what are our batteries going for right now?  2K?  More?  If so, they would need to knock that price off the car for sure).

[scottwood2]

I hear the statement a lot that the batteries will need to be replace and that is expensive.  That statement maybe true to some point but I think it is the new technology that gets people worried. 

 

I don't hear that about engines or transmissions which also wear out.  I just heard recently that transmission can be $7000 now to get them replaced.  I am sure a new or rebuilt engine is costly too.  Everything wears out.

 

I hear from some say to buy a truck with 4 wheel drive because you get your money back when you sell.  That might be true if you don't have to service it but the same people say they would not buy a hybrid because it takes too long to get your money back.  They assume the resale is zero for the battery pack. 

 

I guess it all depends on how you look at it. 

[Ponypower]

Go new, get what you want, you won,t regret it

[fbov]

For my part, I'd recommend a used SEL over a new SE, just based on the absence of 12v battery issues reported by SEL owners. Most of the lemon-law buy-backs discussed on the forum have been for 12v battery issues, although that's died down... it may not be an issue in a new SE. I've got an October 2012 SEL that's only cost me for gas and oil in the first 32K (and a tire I can't blame on Ford).

 

As to HV battery life... some folks will always find problems, and are not swayed by data to the contrary.

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?doc_id=256425&dfpPParams=ind_184,industry_auto,bid_318,aid_256425&dfpLayout=blog

Do a search for "ford key life test" for additional links, but this is the one with the data. The key finding is "batteries generally do better in the field than they do on tests."

*Except* the battery will then need replacing -- although there's no (or not enough) hard data on how long our own HV batteries will last, there's a good reason the system is only warranted for that long.  Ford doesn't believe (or at least isn't willing to back it up with money, which is mostly the same thing) the battery won't need replacing, which is a *huge* cost right now....

 

I hear the statement a lot that the batteries will need to be replace and that is expensive.  That statement maybe true to some point but I think it is the new technology that gets people worried. ...

I don't know your personal background or training, but I'm guessing from your "location" you've spent more time in the gym than in a lab, took more PE courses than STEM courses. That can lead to an unhealthy skepticism, unhealthy in the sense that if you haven't been trained to analyze data, it becomes hard to tell truth from fiction.

 

Fear and ignorance go hand-in-hand. We humans once cowered when "the gods" rained thunder down from the skies. Now we only cower when that thunder comes from a comma-shaped cloud, with a funnel forming in the distance (assuming proper lightening protection on our dwellings).

 

At the same time, while skepticism always allows one to accept or reject data-based conclusions, it includes the burden of proof when rejecting those conclusions. Until the HVB life skeptics show us some data, I'll accept Ford's data, and the conclusion that the HVB will outllast most of the drivetrain.

 

We now have several high-mileage drivers in the 50-100K mile range, and it looks like pjones is still trying to achieve new personal best range-without-refueling,breaking the 1000-mile barrier, despite his car's high mileage. Of course, it's well known that cars get better mileage when well broken in, a fact that's not lost on Paul...

 

Have fun,

Frank

Edited March 25, 2015 by fbov

[stevedebi]

Kelleytoons, on 24 Mar 2015 - 05:14 AM, said:

Yeah, the warranty on the HV system is 8 years or 100,000 miles (varies by state, though) and if THAT warranty is done the car is just about as well.

No way. 100k is nothing. If the Cmax cant last 100k, it's a crap product. Its not uncommon to see cars push 300k. I have seen semis with over 1M miles. There are people that put 100k on a car in two years. There is zero reason why a modern day car cant last 200k minimal.

 

Anyway, I would get the SEL hands down. There is no difference between the 2013 and 2014 other than one ends in the number 4 and the other ends in the number 3. Low mileage is overrated. You pay a MASSIVE premium for low mileage. I saved over $17,000 off the MSRP on my 2013 SEL because I bought it with 29k miles at just the right time at the right dealer. Original Ford MSRP was like $34k. I paid $6,500 with my tradein. Total was $16,500. $34k down to 16.5 just because I shopped around a ton and was willing to get one with 29k miles instead of zero.

We ran over this in the Fusion Hybrid forum. It turns out that all states (including CARB) only warranty for 8 years, 100K for the hybrid version. The Energi has the higher 10 years / 150K (but only in CARB states).

[raadsel]

I hear the statement a lot that the batteries will need to be replace and that is expensive.  That statement maybe true to some point but I think it is the new technology that gets people worried. 

 

I don't hear that about engines or transmissions which also wear out.  I just heard recently that transmission can be $7000 now to get them replaced.  I am sure a new or rebuilt engine is costly too.  Everything wears out.

 

I hear from some say to buy a truck with 4 wheel drive because you get your money back when you sell.  That might be true if you don't have to service it but the same people say they would not buy a hybrid because it takes too long to get your money back.  They assume the resale is zero for the battery pack. 

 

I guess it all depends on how you look at it. 

 

I think the first thing is to point out the Lithium battery packs should have a long lifespan. Though I wish I could find some numbers from Ford's testing, I know that Hyundai reported that they were getting 300,000 miles from their Lithium battery packs in testing. I'm sure that contributed to Hyundai offering a lifetime battery warranty to first owners of their hybrids. What we have heard from Ford, rather than a mileage count, is that they expect the battery packs to last the life of the vehicle -- that would suggest they have seen similar results in their testing, as cars are typically built for 250,000 miles.

 

I expect we'll see third party companies offering battery replacements for the Lithium batteries in the Ford hybrids, using most of the same techniques we are seeing with the companies offering battery replacements in the Prius. I know locally, for the Prius, you can get a battery replacement for $1000 or less, though that is with a refurbished battery that is warranted for a year.

 

As for "replacing" your battery, it helps to realize that your "battery" is actually a number of individual battery cells hardwired to make one battery; one source I found claimed it is 76 cells in the C-Max hybrid and 84 (larger cells) in the Energi. What is often found in the Prius, when a battery fails, is that it is only a few, or even one, of the individual cells that failed.

 

In one case, an electrician tested the individual cells in his Prius and only found one bad cell. He replaced that one cell, for less than $100, and the Prius was fine -- I know he used it for several thousand more miles without issue. And I should insert the standard "don't try this at home" warning, only try this if you are trained to service high voltage equipment.

 

I trust we'll see third party companies start offering replacements for the Ford Lithium battery hybrids, likely some of the same companies offering it for the Prius. They'll likely get the initial battery packs from wrecked Ford hybrids in junkyards. They'll then recondition the individual cells, recycling any bad cells, and create refurbished battery packs. Then, as they replace customer batteries, they'll keep repeating this process, using the replaced packs to help them build new refurbished packs. Again, the battery should have a life of over 300,000 miles, though individual cells might fail.  

[Adrian_L]

As for "replacing" your battery, it helps to realize that your "battery" is actually a number of individual battery cells hardwired to make one battery; one source I found claimed it is 76 cells in the C-Max hybrid and 84 (larger cells) in the Energi. What is often found in the Prius, when a battery fails, is that it is only a few, or even one, of the individual cells that failed.

 

Very good point and something I wanted to say when a member in another post made an absurd comparison between the HVB and a (cordless tool?) Lithium Ion battery dying because it was left uncharged.

[mtb9153]

No contest, get the SEL so much better than the SE.

[Kelleytoons]

Just to be clear, my concern isn't about our battery but about the original poster saying the vehicle he was looking at was out of warranty (or implying it -- have to check to see what was what).  For buying the price he was quoting something that already had 100K plus miles on it was just asking for trouble (even with a "normal" transmission).

 

And, yes, one of those concerns would be battery at this point.  If that vehicle (a 2013) has over 100K on it the battery may well need replacing either now or very soon depending on how it was maintained.  And we don't have the market right now to service C-Max batteries that may well grow up a few years from now.  

 

All I was saying is he wasn't getting a good deal and I still think that's true.  I have ever expectation my own battery will last the life of my vehicle (which will be at least 10 years and perhaps even 15, as I tend to drive our stuff a very long time).

[stevedebi]

Just to be clear, my concern isn't about our battery but about the original poster saying the vehicle he was looking at was out of warranty (or implying it -- have to check to see what was what).  For buying the price he was quoting something that already had 100K plus miles on it was just asking for trouble (even with a "normal" transmission).

 

And, yes, one of those concerns would be battery at this point.  If that vehicle (a 2013) has over 100K on it the battery may well need replacing either now or very soon depending on how it was maintained.  And we don't have the market right now to service C-Max batteries that may well grow up a few years from now.  

 

All I was saying is he wasn't getting a good deal and I still think that's true.  I have ever expectation my own battery will last the life of my vehicle (which will be at least 10 years and perhaps even 15, as I tend to drive our stuff a very long time).

Well, there were FEH in San Franscisco that went 300K on the original battery. However that was probably over only 4-5 years - I don't recall. But Ford adjusts the software as the battery loses capacity. I would expect a C-Max hybrid to last at least 8 years, since that is the warranty on the battery. Probably 10-12 years. Yes, the mileage may decrease, but the car will still run. Without the HVB it won't even start.

[fbov]

...For buying the price he was quoting something that already had 100K plus miles on it ... (emphais added)

Where'd you get that idea?

 

Best I can find in jkumpire's posts is:

"The problem is of course the normal warranty is about done,..."

which I interpret as referring to the bumper-to-bumper warranty, or about the 32K miles I have on my 2013.

 

I'm not trying to be diffucult, just give the OP an accurate picture.

 

Frank

Frank

[Adrian_L]

You'd have to do a heck of a lot of driving to put 100,000 miles+ on a 2013 SEL.

 

I'm guessing it's more about 25,000-35,000 but the OP is being surreptitious.

[raadsel]

One question: when the 2013 came out, the hybrid version was limited to (from what I recall) only 62 mph while running solely off battery power, and I believe Ford changed that on the 2014 where it could run up to 85 solely on the electric motor. So my question: did one of the updates to the 2013 C-Max Hybrid update the top speed while running off the battery, or is it still limited to only 62 mph?

[JAZ]

raadsel, early on the 2013s were updated to permit speeds up to 85mph on the HV battery.

[Adrian_L]

The 2013 and 2014s are identical in every respect except for slight aero modifications and (if I remember correctly) a subtle change to the transmission.  Oh..........and thinner oil (Ford authorizes 0W20 in the '13).    Any software updates or changes are available for the '13 too.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Adrian_L

[nwswdn]

I just pulled the trigger on a new 2014 SE with a handful of options. For me, the additional items on the SEL aren't that important; that's just my personal preference.  Some great deals out there right now.  Mine was invoice less $5,000 in rebates.  Traded a 2009 Sonata with 93,000 miles.  Out the door price $16,270.