My transmission broke and yours might too

[bigalpha]

I would have looked through the documentation I have, except it just happens to be in the shop. :)

[obob]

SSM 44252 - Hybrids In Taxi Service - HF35 Transmission Bearing Noise

Some 2013 C-MAX Hybrid and 2013-2014 Fusion Hybrid vehicles operating in taxi service may exhibit a metal-on-metal scraping-type sound from the transmission. This noise will be present in all gear ranges including neutral when the vehicle is moving, but will not be present when the vehicle is stationary or in park. The current transmission assembly (7000) service parts incorporate design improvements to enhance durability under the unique operating conditions of taxi service.

 

 

So who needs to be concerned ?

 

Does the 7000 assembly prevent the problem that bigalpha and ptjones and other may have ?

 

How can someone know whether they have these improvements ?

 

My guess is the 2013s manufactured late in the year have the improvements.

 

I suspect is Ford is in damage control.  This is an expensive problem.  I think it is possible that ALL the transmissions will have the problem eventually.  The people whose transmissions fail sooner so are under warranty are in a better position because it sounds like a transmission repair could total the car.  

 

 

My father had a Honda whose transmission went bad after the warranty on a model with know transmission problems and Honda subsidized the job so it cost him 1500.  Similarly I had a Toyota with a trans problem out of warranty with a model know for problems - even had a secret warranty - but I did not get an subsidy. 

Edited May 3, 2015 by obob

[ptjones]

It would be nice to know what the problem is and they did to solve it. I'm guessing the only ones that have failed have been 2013's.   ;) 

 

Paul

[SPL Tech]

A number of Fusion owners have had failed transmissions. The hybrids don't have an auxiliary TFT pump which means fluid only circulates in the transmission when the ICE is on. The Energi has two transmission pumps, one for when the ICE is on & one for when the ICE is off.

 

Paul is right that the transmission fluid temp gets hotter on highway drives than city drives. This is because of increased friction at higher speeds. Allowing the ICE to turn off at highway speeds might create a lubrication issue.

 

The first gen FFH doesn't have issues because it has a lower maximum EV speed which keeps the transmission lubricated at high speeds.

 

Ford might have a big issue on their hands here.

I know the ICE pumps the fluid through the intercooler, keeping the fluid cool, but I though the lubrication does not require a pump, it's just free standing fluid that is moved throughout as the internal components spin.

 

As far as the intercooler not spinning when the ICE is off, this seems like a non issue. It take a LONG time for the tranny to get warm. I drove over 30 miles at 80 MPH and noticed the fluid was still getting progressively hotter after 30 miles. It took 50 miles before the fluid temp stabilized. In city driving, the fluid temp takes even longer to reach max temp. On the highway, the longest the engine would ever stay off while you are in EV and pressing the accelerator is maybe 90 seconds if the HV is fully charged. It takes about 90 seconds just for the temp to increase 1 degree C, so not running the intercooler for those 90 seconds wont matter. Also, when the car is in EV mode the max it can do is 36 HP, which wont produce much heat. Coasting down a hill on a highway for a long time without the intercooler pump running seems like a non issue as well as the tranny is just spinning freely with little to no load, so heat buildup wont matter much.

 

I have watched my TFT temp while coasting downhill in EV and I dont think it increases even 1C.

Edited May 4, 2015 by SPL Tech

[plus 3 golfer]

I know the ICE pumps the fluid through the intercooler, keeping the fluid cool, but I though the lubrication does not require a pump, it's just free standing fluid that is moved throughout as the internal components spin.

 

As far as the intercooler not spinning when the ICE is off, this seems like a non issue. It take a LONG time for the tranny to get warm. I drove over 30 miles at 80 MPH and noticed the fluid was still getting progressively hotter after 30 miles. It took 50 miles before the fluid temp stabilized. In city driving, the fluid temp takes even longer to reach max temp. On the highway, the longest the engine would ever stay off while you are in EV and pressing the accelerator is maybe 90 seconds if the HV is fully charged. It takes about 90 seconds just for the temp to increase 1 degree C, so not running the intercooler for those 90 seconds wont matter. Also, when the car is in EV mode the max it can do is 36 HP, which wont produce much heat. Coasting down a hill on a highway for a long time without the intercooler pump running seems like a non issue as well as the tranny is just spinning freely with little to no load, so heat buildup wont matter much.

 

I have watched my TFT temp while coasting downhill in EV and I dont think it increases even 1C.

When I monitored the transmission temperatures in a 30 mile test loop (20 miles of high speed and 10 miles of suburban) including motor and generator coil temperatures, regenerative braking  increased the motor coil temperature quickly to the maximum values that I observed while TFT increases lagged the coil temperature rise.  Highway cruising at 70 mph caused little change in temperatures and were in the middle of the temperatures that I observed below.

 

Temperature Range:

140 F < TFT < 148 F

160 F < Motor Coil Temp < 175 F

150 F < Generator Coil Temp < 165 F

 

In thinking about this and the Taxi TSB, it seems plausible that since taxis in city service typically accelerate briskly and stop quickly to increase "waiting time" to increase the fare, the use of the motor during acceleration and regenerative braking may raise the TFT more than we think.  Since the coolant pump is not running during the waiting time, there's little opportunity to lower the TFT and the cumulative effect might cause excessively high TFT and very high bearing temperatures causing failure.  Most owners won't drive their hybrid like this in city driving.  So, is highway driving really the issue in the Taxi TSB or is it more of a mileage issue exacerbated with stop and go driving (taxi service type driving).

 

One other point and that is the bearing noise in the TSB is heard whenever the car is moving including neutral.  When ICE runs and the car is stationary, everything but the ring gear is moving (the gear connected to the motor and drive axles) and no noise is heard.  This leads me to believe the issue is with a bearing associated with the motor gearing / final drive gearing.  

 

I will every so often run my 30 mile loop and compare transmission temperatures with my above base line temps.

[ptjones]

It's my understanding that the Trans internal Trans Fluid Pump works only when ICE is on and should be pumping fluid through Trans Fluid Cooler in front of radiator.  If the pump fails the only cooling the Trans is get is from air flow around Trans and from the ICE block if it is cooler than Trans. :)

 

Paul

[bigalpha]

Plus 3, that's a very in depth analysis. In my case, I do no stopping and all going. How does that play into things?

[hybridbear]

I know the ICE pumps the fluid through the intercooler, keeping the fluid cool, but I though the lubrication does not require a pump, it's just free standing fluid that is moved throughout as the internal components spin.

I'm not sure you're correct. The attached documents from Ford say:

 

The transmission fluid pump is an internal pump bolted to the transmission case. The transmission fluid

pump is turned by the input shaft and circulates transmission fluid through the transmission for lubrication

and through an oil-to-air cooler mounted in the front of the radiator for transmission cooling. The

transmission fluid pump only operates when the engine is running.

This indicates that when the ICE is off the pump is off and is not providing lubrication to the transmission.

TFT pump HEV.pdfTFT pump PHEV.pdf

 

As far as the intercooler not spinning when the ICE is off, this seems like a non issue. It take a LONG time for the tranny to get warm. I drove over 30 miles at 80 MPH and noticed the fluid was still getting progressively hotter after 30 miles. It took 50 miles before the fluid temp stabilized. In city driving, the fluid temp takes even longer to reach max temp. On the highway, the longest the engine would ever stay off while you are in EV and pressing the accelerator is maybe 90 seconds if the HV is fully charged. It takes about 90 seconds just for the temp to increase 1 degree C, so not running the intercooler for those 90 seconds wont matter. Also, when the car is in EV mode the max it can do is 36 HP, which wont produce much heat. Coasting down a hill on a highway for a long time without the intercooler pump running seems like a non issue as well as the tranny is just spinning freely with little to no load, so heat buildup wont matter much.

 

I have watched my TFT temp while coasting downhill in EV and I dont think it increases even 1C.

The biggest TFT increase I've observed is when doing lots of regen braking when descending out of the mountains. Even with the auxiliary pump in the Energi I watched our TFT rise from 140 F to 220 F when descending down toward Phoenix in January. We were able to regen about 3.5 kWh into the HVB during this stretch. Outside temps were in the 50s in the mountains and around 70 in Phoenix and I had removed my grille blocking to cool the transmission better during the descent.

[stevedebi]

Then, you haven't looked very hard. ;) Ford's extended warranty coverage for the hybrid system has been posted in many threads and can be found on Ford's website in the warranty documents.  :)

 

In California, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Vermont and Washington the coverage of the components shown below may be longer than the 8 yr / 100 k miles. I'd suggest that owners in those states weigh the benefits of purchasing an extended warranty if worried about expensive hybrid parts failing as the C-Max transmission, for example, may be covered for a considerably longer period (15 years / 150 k miles) than Ford's limited new car warranty.  If not sure, send an email to Ford or perhaps your state.

 

"Your vehicle’s unique hybrid / electric components are covered during the Hybrid / Electric Unique Component Coverage, which lasts for eight years or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first. • The following hybrid parts are covered during this extended coverage period: high-voltage battery, hybrid continuously variable transmission, Inverter System Controller (ISC), DC/DC converter, high-voltage battery connector, battery pack fan assembly, thermistor probe, Hybrid Battery Pack Sensor Module (HBPSM), Battery Energy Control Module (BECM), and the PHEV onboard charger."

I've been monitoring the Energi thread where the owner was having trouble with his transmission. The Ford dealer was claiming that only the electrical part of the CVT was covered, and apparently Ford Corporate was agreeing. The warranty statement for the 2013 has a bunch of language that is drafted from other vehicles, followed by the statement you just quoted. I think it was always a lot of hogwash - those statements included stuff like "locking transfer case" and "AWD" and are obviously invalid, but that owner almost paid 1K to have the diagnose the transmission. Fortunately a second dealer said that was stupid - there are no dealer serviceable parts in the transmission - and diagnosed it for 130 bucks.

 

I agree with your interpretation of 100K (150 for CARB states), but I hope I never have to find out.

Edited May 4, 2015 by stevedebi

[ptjones]

Ford is replacing my Trans and paying for rental car so I would say you are in good shape with 8yr/100Kmi hybrid warranty. :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

Latest news is Rich Ford has gotten new Trans and hope to have ready mid to late next week. :)

 

Paul

[bigalpha]

Guess I should update this.  Had my transmission replaced under warranty shortly after submitting this thread.  Took extra long because they had to ship the transmission.  After receipt, the dealership realized they needed a "special tool". So that took another week. 

Anyways, the new trans has been functioning perfectly with no issues. 

 

The downside is that the new trans only has a 2 year, unlimited mileage warranty.  So if your trans is making noise, I suggest you wait as long as possible to get it replaced.

[Bill-N]

Guess I should update this.  Had my transmission replaced under warranty shortly after submitting this thread.  Took extra long because they had to ship the transmission.  After receipt, the dealership realized they needed a "special tool". So that took another week. 

 

Anyways, the new trans has been functioning perfectly with no issues. 

 

The downside is that the new trans only has a 2 year, unlimited mileage warranty.  So if your trans is making noise, I suggest you wait as long as possible to get it replaced.

 

The original hybrid warranty still applies, i.e. 8 years or 100k (150k in CARB states apparently).  So you should still have 5+ years left from the original warranty.

 

I hope you have no more trouble.  Since my transmission was replaced I've had (1) a dead battery, (2) wouldn't shift out of park, and the latest (3) a bizarre situation where the car would neither start nor stop (shut-off).  I just picked it up yesterday and I suspect it's still not right as my volt-meter now shows 13+ volts when charging vs 14+ pre-transmission-replacement.  (Sigh)

[revanoff2]

I live in Oregon ( a proposed 150,000mile state), but I am the second owner. How does that affect the warranty on the covered Hybrid parts?

 

Bueller?Bueller?

 

~Revanoff~

Edited September 4, 2015 by revanoff2

[stevedebi]

I live in Oregon ( a proposed 150,000mile state), but I am the second owner. How does that affect the warranty on the covered Hybrid parts?

 

Bueller?Bueller?

 

~Revanoff~

The warranty goes with the car, not the owner.

[ptjones]

The warranty goes with the car, not the owner.

You do need to pay a transfer fee, I don't remember how much, $100?. ;)

 

Paul

[stevedebi]

You do need to pay a transfer fee, I don't remember how much, $100?. ;)

 

Paul

Never heard of this. Are you sure you are not referring to an extended warranty?

[ptjones]

I just checked and it is transferable at no cost. YA!  :yahoo:

 

Paul

[Singoffpitch]

I'm just under 80,000 miles on my 2013 and the dealer thinks my transmission is going bad, too. They said it was a good thing I got the extra warranty because not all of the repair would be covered by the hybrid parts warranty. Isn't it funny how the hundreds (not exaggerating) of things that have gone bad on this car are not the things Ford is responsible for long-term. I plan to trade in this car at 99,999 miles because I won't risk even a mile over the extended warranty coverage with as many issues as I've had. I LOVE driving this car and might even consider a 2015 C-Max if the kinks have been worked out, but this is ridiculous. I bought a brand-new car for the sole purpose of ensuring my car didn't break down on me or need a lot of service with my long commute. That sure backfired.

[ptjones]

Your Dealer is wrong, I had 98K mi. when my Trans went bad and FORD paid for everything. I have mentioned many times to make sure your car is always covered under warranty. :)

 

Paul

[FordService]

I'm just under 80,000 miles on my 2013 and the dealer thinks my transmission is going bad, too. They said it was a good thing I got the extra warranty because not all of the repair would be covered by the hybrid parts warranty. Isn't it funny how the hundreds (not exaggerating) of things that have gone bad on this car are not the things Ford is responsible for long-term. I plan to trade in this car at 99,999 miles because I won't risk even a mile over the extended warranty coverage with as many issues as I've had. I LOVE driving this car and might even consider a 2015 C-Max if the kinks have been worked out, but this is ridiculous. I bought a brand-new car for the sole purpose of ensuring my car didn't break down on me or need a lot of service with my long commute. That sure backfired.

 

Hi Singoffpitch,

 

Do you have an appointment set up for the transmission repair? Please let me know, so I can check out additional assistance.

 

Meagan