Bought Ethanol Free

[SnowStorm]

Great to see some real data - thanks for sharing it.  We have a station that sells 87E10 and 87E0 on the same pump but our car has no consistent daily commute so I won't be doing a comparison.  (Plus, I don't want to damage the Lifetime average!)  Perhaps if you just switch back and forth on each tank you can continue to see the difference even through weather changes.

[shinytop]

I bought one tank of ethanol free gasoline.  Could not compare mileage as was about to make highway trip.  But it was $.40 more a gallon.  Might give more power but I do not believe it is economical.  What is the price difference for others that have bought it?

[raadsel]

I bought one tank of ethanol free gasoline.  Could not compare mileage as was about to make highway trip.  But it was $.40 more a gallon.  Might give more power but I do not believe it is economical.  What is the price difference for others that have bought it?

 

It seems like I've seen some people claim that fuel economy is maybe 5% better. Now, just to be safe, if we use a 10% improvement on gas economy, basically you'd need the price difference to be less than 10% to be worth the extra (so, gas at $4 for E10 would need to be less than $4.40 for E0).

[plus 3 golfer]

I bought one tank of ethanol free gasoline.  Could not compare mileage as was about to make highway trip.  But it was $.40 more a gallon.  Might give more power but I do not believe it is economical.  What is the price difference for others that have bought it?

IMO, the maximum improvement in FE would be the ratio of the BTU content of E10 vs E0 regular gas which is somewhere around 3+% on average. The BTU content of  premium octane vs regular octane fuel is on average 0.7% higher for premium gas (Chevron's Motor Gasolines Technical Review).  So, I think 5% FE improvement is about it if the E0 is premium fuel.  To break even on a $0.40 price differential, gas would have to be about $8 per gallon.   My guess is that if E10 got up to $8 a gallon, E0 would be several times the $0.40 price difference.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Plus 3 Golfer

[fbov]

Two things.

 

I don't see 91E0 as an economic choice, but rather a performance choice. That first tank was like Spring all over again! (For those who stay above 0F all year, mileage sucks in Winter. Rolling resistance is up, and the car won't glide like it ought to.... until Spring.) I found my SOC was higher, with the same burn timings. The car felt like there was more energy in the fuel. And I liked being in the 60MPG club... 800 mile tanks were in sight!!

 

This car's dropped my fuel expense a lot, so I don't mind spending a little time and money on experiments. You may recall I have added several things to the car, and been able to assess the objective effect of each. For my front air dam, side skirts and vortex generators, if they have any effect, I didn't see one; not even a slight mean shift.  Switching fuel to 91E0 and adding front grill blocks are two changes that give a real and consistent performance difference.

 

There is some value to separating snake oil from the good stuff. I'd love to see someone else replicate these studies, to see if the results are real.

 

HAve fun,

Frank

[SnowStorm]

At this point I don't bother about the price difference.  I want the longer engine life you supposedly get with E0 as we often run our cars 100s of thousands of miles.  There is some reason they limit you to E10 (and its not about gas mileage).

[ptjones]

Well I did it, filled up at BJ's Saturday, going from Premium(93octane) to Regular(87octane) to see if I could see a difference in Ignition Timing . This could explain an improvement in FE to about 2mpg between Regular and Premium.  This is what I found so far, with Premium my advance was running between 29-33 degrees and with Regular 27-31 degrees Saturday afternoon with temps in the 80's. Sunday morning I found out that ECM advances more when ICE is cold and the outside temp is colder. Now after 4 days of driving my MPG has gone from 56.4 to 53.9 on new tank.  Another interesting thing to watch is that the ECM periodically tests the octane level by advancing the timing. One example is going uphill with about 2BAR throttle pressure I saw the timing go from 26* to 35* and back to 27* in a couple of seconds.  Also when you let off the accelerator to go into EV the ECM advances timing to 40* Premium and 38* Regular.

 

I'm going to try a Real Good Octane Booster if I can find one to see if it makes a difference.   Reviews haven't been very good.  Don't you love it with the advertising on STP Gas Booster, it has Jet Fuel in it. I guess that is supposed to be a good thing. LOL  Jet Fuel is basically Kerosene/Diesel which needs high compression and heat to burn, it might burn slower though.  During WWII they had 104/150 Grade fuel, but was eliminated after the war. Link:  http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/150grade/150-grade-fuel.html. :shift:  :)

 

Paul

[fbov]

I'm going to BJ's next tank, too. Just curious, before the weather turns...

Frank

[ptjones]

I'm going to BJ's next tank, too. Just curious, before the weather turns...

Frank

Are you going from 91E0 to Premium 93 octane or Regular 87 octane? :)

 

I hate to go from Premium to Regular, I've lost 3mpg, 56.3 to 53.3. Ouch! :drop:  :gaah:  :sad:

 

Paul

[fbov]

Yes, 91E0 to 87E10. I want the contrast, since I'm now getting from 91E0 what I used to get with 87E10. Plus, it'll be October before I do it... got to empty the tank of the good stuff first.

 

And the loss is nothing compared with Winter!

 

Frank

[ptjones]

Good Luck with that. LOL  I hate going down in MPG's LOL :)

 

Paul

[ptjones]

With temps in the mid 80's I was able to get my average for this tank up to 54mpg, but still down from last Premium tank of 56.4mpg. I will still get over 700mi. on this tank. :)

 

Paul 

[ptjones]

I bought some NOS Octane Booster Racing Formula at Walmart for $9.97 which is suppose to raise Octane by 3 (Reg. 87+3=90 octane in theory).  With a couple of short trips it looks like my timing maybe advanced one degree, we will see if my FE improves.  Directions say to empty container(12FL.  OZ.) into 16+ gal. , I only had about 4.5 gal. so I put in about 3-4 oz.  Before some members complain about wasting money on this I agree that it is more cost effective to use Premium. This is just a test and only a test, so don't do this at home. LOL :lol:  :lol2:  BTW instructions say" NOTE: Not Legal For Street Use".

I plan to use the rest of the bottle on my next tank of Premium to see if it improves FE. The Box also says it "Improves Fuel Efficiency" :shift:  :)

 

Paul 

[ptjones]

 

I made a Three day trip to Rochester,NY and back this week so I decided to fill up with ethanol free (6.1 gal) with the 93 octane Premium and then add 2/3 of bottle of NOS Octane Booster Racing Formula.  I was amazed by the results and I saw the highest advance ignition timing ever.  I started out on I-85, I-285, I-75, I-71, I-90 to I-390 and by the time I got to I-75(50 mi) my average MPG was 58 going 65-75mph. I think the Octane Booster was worth 2 mpg, but not the money spent on it. Temps started out in high 60's, got up to 78*F and then dropped down to 55*F and I did have a tail wind 10-20 mph.  My average GPS speed was 63.5 mph and you can see on the GPS I wasn't driving slow, 84.9 mph max with 54.3 mpg average (53.5 mpg Actual). My second tank, 92 octane Premium Temps 50-58*F some rain averaged 53.6 mpg(51.6 mpg actual) .  When I got home I did final full up 53.9 mpg average (54.1 actual). I had the Grill Covers on for the whole trip and only used the heater to lower the ICE temp below 230*F for no longer than a minute at a time on long climbs.  The Total trip was 2033 mi. so I average about 700 mi. a day and BTW all three fill ups could have 700 mi. tanks. 

 

 

 

PS. Who said you could not get as good MPG's as a TDI. LOL :yahoo:

 

Paul

Edited October 19, 2015 by ptjones

[Redshift]

At this point I don't bother about the price difference.  I want the longer engine life you supposedly get with E0 as we often run our cars 100s of thousands of miles.  There is some reason they limit you to E10 (and its not about gas mileage).

FYI using premium gas will NOT improve your engine life. It has nothing to do with it. Just use a good grade Top Tier gasoline and enjoy your car.

[Redshift]

 

 

I made a Three day trip to Rochester,NY and back this week so I decided to fill up with ethanol free (6.1 gal) with the 93 octane Premium and then add 2/3 of bottle of NOS Octane Booster Racing Formula.  I was amazed by the results and I saw the highest advance ignition timing ever.  I started out on I-85, I-285, I-75, I-71, I-90 to I-390 and by the time I got to I-75(50 mi) my average MPG was 58 going 65-75mph. I think the Octane Booster was worth 2 mpg, but not the money spent on it. Temps started out in high 60's, got up to 78*F and then dropped down to 55*F and I did have a tail wind 10-20 mph.  My average GPS speed was 63.5 mph and you can see on the GPS I wasn't driving slow, 84.9 mph max with 54.3 mpg average (53.5 mpg Actual). My second tank, 92 octane Premium Temps 50-58*F some rain averaged 53.6 mpg(51.6 mpg actual) .  When I got home I did final full up 53.9 mpg average (54.1 actual). I had the Grill Covers on for the whole trip and only used the heater to lower the ICE temp below 230*F for no longer than a minute at a time on long climbs.  The Total trip was 2033 mi. so I average about 700 mi. a day and BTW all three fill ups could have 700 mi. tanks. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS. Who said you could not get as good MPG's as a TDI. LOL :yahoo:

 

Paul

 

It great to be able to say you get that kind of mileage but I don't believe it's worth it taking an chance of damaging your fuel pump. Since the fuel pump is in the gas tank, it uses gasoline to cool itself. Run the tank super low and your fuel pump is exposed to the air and gets hotter. I'd rather fill up earlier and save my fuel pump. Doesn't mean anything to me personally about how far I went on one tank but you mileage is impressive.

[ptjones]

It great to be able to say you get that kind of mileage but I don't believe it's worth it taking an chance of damaging your fuel pump. Since the fuel pump is in the gas tank, it uses gasoline to cool itself. Run the tank super low and your fuel pump is exposed to the air and gets hotter. I'd rather fill up earlier and save my fuel pump. Doesn't mean anything to me personally about how far I went on one tank but you mileage is impressive.

I asked this question of my Service Manager and he said the fuel pump stops a few seconds after the ICE does.  FYI running of gas is pretty much a non event, the car goes to EV when this happens. The ICE will start right up when you put gas in it, I have first hand experience. :)  :shift:

 

Paul 

[SnowStorm]

FYI using premium gas will NOT improve your engine life. It has nothing to do with it. Just use a good grade Top Tier gasoline and enjoy your car.

To clarify, I was referring to E0 as meaning 0% ethanol content, not octane rating (what I always understood "premium" to refer to).  I always use 87 octane.

[blaquetung]

The focus of this discussion has been one of fuel economy; however, use of fuels without oxygenated additives (in this case ethanol) are much poorer at limiting release of volatile components.  So, although using E0 fuels may yield slightly better fuel economy (which 'may' have a slight economic benefit), it is an environmentally destructive choice.

 

I think the other comment earlier may also be correct, that higher octane gasoline than the car is rated for leads to incomplete combustion.

 

So the best balance of Environment/Economics/Efficiency is probably E10 or E15.

[wab]

The focus of this discussion has been one of fuel economy; however, use of fuels without oxygenated additives (in this case ethanol) are much poorer at limiting release of volatile components.  So, although using E0 fuels may yield slightly better fuel economy (which 'may' have a slight economic benefit), it is an environmentally destructive choice.

 

I think the other comment earlier may also be correct, that higher octane gasoline than the car is rated for leads to incomplete combustion.

 

So the best balance of Environment/Economics/Efficiency is probably E10 or E15.

Anybody think the EPA has ever compaired the emissions from a car burning E0 and then retest the same car using E10 for 4000/4348 gallons, wonder which would pollute more.

23 mpg X 4348 gal = 100,000 miles for how much bad air?

25 mpg X 4000 gal = 100,000 miles for how much bad air?

[ptjones]

The focus of this discussion has been one of fuel economy; however, use of fuels without oxygenated additives (in this case ethanol) are much poorer at limiting release of volatile components.  So, although using E0 fuels may yield slightly better fuel economy (which 'may' have a slight economic benefit), it is an environmentally destructive choice.

It is my understanding that the EPA uses Ethanol Free Gas to do their testing.  http://www.mpgomatic.com/2013/03/26/does-the-epa-use-e10-gasoline-for-fuel-economy-testing/

 

I think the other comment earlier may also be correct, that higher octane gasoline than the car is rated for leads to incomplete combustion.

I have watched the ECM advance the timing of the ICE with my ScanGauge II using Premium and Octane Booster. The ECM checks for ICE knocking and retards the timing when it detects it.  I

have seen ECM advance timing to 44 degrees and then quickly retard to 35 detrees without changing the throttle position.

 

So the best balance of Environment/Economics/Efficiency is probably E10 or E15.  The latest Science on this is questioning whether E10 more harmful than good.

Link:   http://www.treehugger.com/corporate-responsibility/new-study-finds-corn-based-ethanol-more-harmful-than-oil-based-gasoline.html

It is important to check info Posted on this site so members don't get misinformation.  Most of this has been covered on other threads. :)

 

Paul

[fbov]

Good post, Paul.

 

At the same time, there's a limit to the amount of fossil fuel on the planet, so there is an argument for alternative fuels, among the many options for future energy supply/conservation (got to get the hybrid in there). It's a complex topic, one which will turn on geopolitical factors as much as technology. There's a reason gas is cheap now, and it has everything to do with politics, and nothing to do with oil reserves.

 

Have fun,

Frank

[ptjones]

Good post, Paul.

 

At the same time, there's a limit to the amount of fossil fuel on the planet, so there is an argument for alternative fuels, among the many options for future energy supply/conservation (got to get the hybrid in there). It's a complex topic, one which will turn on geopolitical factors as much as technology. There's a reason gas is cheap now, and it has everything to do with politics, and nothing to do with oil reserves.

 

Have fun,

Frank

Thanks.     I thought it had to do with supply and demand, Saudi Arabia is supplying cheap oil and the demand is down. If it  was up to the Political powers in power now it would be $5 a gallon. The Market Place decided something different, it will be awhile before alternate energy will have a significant impact as Technology improves over time to get the price down.  It is all about the economics of various types of Energy Sources. IMHO :)

 

Paul

[raadsel]

Thanks.     I thought it had to do with supply and demand, Saudi Arabia is supplying cheap oil and the demand is down. If it  was up to the Political powers in power now it would be $5 a gallon. The Market Place decided something different, it will be awhile before alternate energy will have a significant impact as Technology improves over time to get the price down.  It is all about the economics of various types of Energy Sources. IMHO :)

 

Paul

 

Actually, demand for oil is not down. The reason oil is cheap is because the OPEC nations are keeping the price down, they are trying to drive the oil shale producers, both here and and in Russia, out of business (and succeeding).

[ptjones]

Actually, demand for oil is not down. The reason oil is cheap is because the OPEC nations are keeping the price down, they are trying to drive the oil shale producers, both here and and in Russia, out of business (and succeeding).

I heard US Producers could shut down and wait for prices to go up. ;)

 

Paul