Ford to end C-max production at Michigan plant

[ptjones]

To me it looks like the Model E is going to replace it. :sad:

 

Paul

[joshg678]

Hybrid F-150 is interesting to me, hope its s good one.

I'll miss the C-Max, maybe I'll just keep mine forever.

[ptjones]

Me too! :)

 

Paul

[SnowStorm]

Thrilled to see those new jobs in Michigan!

 

As to dropping the C-Max, my prediction is that once all the Model E variants are out, precious few of us will want another C-Max (as much as we like them now).  The C-Max was not designed as a hybrid (it was brought over from Europe), and I still think it was a "training car" for Ford to get more experience with electric/battery vehicle technology.  If Ford does it right with the Model E, it can benefit from coming out later and stands to be a great competitor to all the other hybrids, PHEVs and BEVs out there.  Letting a few other folks go first can be a real advantage during the ramp-up of new technology application.  Loosing a few early BEV sales is no big deal since the market is still tiny, especially as compared to what it will be when the ICE Age ends!

[scottwood2]

Thrilled to see those new jobs in Michigan!

 

As to dropping the C-Max, my prediction is that once all the Model E variants are out, precious few of us will want another C-Max (as much as we like them now).  The C-Max was not designed as a hybrid (it was brought over from Europe), and I still think it was a "training car" for Ford to get more experience with electric/battery vehicle technology.  If Ford does it right with the Model E, it can benefit from coming out later and stands to be a great competitor to all the other hybrids, PHEVs and BEVs out there.  Letting a few other folks go first can be a real advantage during the ramp-up of new technology application.  Loosing a few early BEV sales is no big deal since the market is still tiny, especially as compared to what it will be when the ICE Age ends!

I was thinking the same thing for the training car.   Even when I had service done I felt the techs were learning as they went.   They did a good job but it is new technology and a lot of new stuff to learn.   Even driving this car is very different if you are trying to be fuel efficient. 

 

As you said i think the next model will have many improvements.   My only concern is what the body style is going to be.   The C-Max took a hit in FE because of the body style.   Something like a Prius would be better at FE.   I would not be as happy with that body style.   We will see. 

[stolenmoment]

Yep, the whole reason we looked at the CMax was that my 6'2" son couldn't sit in the back of a Volt or Prius.

[raadsel]

From what I've seen, it does appear there will be no true replacement for the C-Max. It appears there will be one body style of the Model E, just different "powertrains" -- hybrid, PHEV, and EV versions. It would appear the body style for the Model E will be similar to the Prius, though possibly a sedan rather than a hatchback (but perhaps both versions), though with the lower roof to lower drag. 

 

I think the question is if Ford will "electrify" one of their current SUV/CUVs, particularly a smaller CUV. This is why I'm so interested in the Kia Niro; it seems like it may end up as the closest car left to the C-Max, once C-Max production ends and it appears the Niro will have outstanding fuel economy for a "taller" car. Of course, my hope is that Ford either decides to continuing making something similar, hopefully based on something similar to the Euro C-Max or Grand C-Max. However, the fact that Ford updated the Euro C-Max a few years ago and we still don't see that reflected in the US C-Max (or even rumors of it) makes it appear doubtful, that the Hybrid C-Max will just be discontinued.

[ptjones]

It's strange that we haven't seen any pics of proposed Model E yet. :sad:

 

Paul

[djc]

Consumer Reports surveys readers for satisfaction with their car purchases;  newish RAV 4 Hybrid is tops for compact SUVs.  A used one will be on my future shopping list.  My C-max with stock tires.got stuck twice on my driveway this week.   I hope more affordable AWD hybrids appear - adding a second electric motor to rear axle should be relatively cheap and maybe with minimal impact on mpg.

 

This bodes well for future: Prices of electric and hybrid vehicles should come down,   Tesla is predicting price of LiOn battery cells should fall to half of 2016 prices by just 2020.  The Gigafactory, the worlds biggest factory of any kind, has just started battery production near Reno.  Ford's price prediction is more conservative: about a 40% drop over same time period.  Still that should shave 1000s off the manufacturing cost of vehicles with large EV capacity.  And, of course, the cars will drive themselves over to a charging station while I shop.

[raadsel]

Consumer Reports surveys readers for satisfaction with their car purchases;  newish RAV 4 Hybrid is tops for compact SUVs.  A used one will be on my future shopping list.  My C-max with stock tires.got stuck twice on my driveway this week.   I hope more affordable AWD hybrids appear - adding a second electric motor to rear axle should be relatively cheap and maybe with minimal impact on mpg.

 

This bodes well for future: Prices of electric and hybrid vehicles should come down,   Tesla is predicting price of LiOn battery cells should fall to half of 2016 prices by just 2020.  The Gigafactory, the worlds biggest factory of any kind, has just started battery production near Reno.  Ford's price prediction is more conservative: about a 40% drop over same time period.  Still that should shave 1000s off the manufacturing cost of vehicles with large EV capacity.  And, of course, the cars will drive themselves over to a charging station while I shop.

 

I would hope the bigger advantage of battery prices dropping is that it might help hybrids/PHEVs/EVs hold onto their value better. One of the big negatives is the thousands of dollars it might cost if the battery pack fails in a used hybrid.

 

As for the RAV 4 hybrid, my biggest issue is that it isn't really that fuel efficient, at only 34 city/31 highway -- particularly since it isn't that much larger or have any more power than the C-Max.

Edited January 5, 2017 by raadsel

[AZgman]

 

As for the RAV 4 hybrid, my biggest issue is that it isn't really that fuel efficient, at only 34 city/31 highway -- particularly since it isn't that much larger or have any more power than the C-Max.

 

It certainly costs more!

[Louder North]

Consumer Reports surveys readers for satisfaction with their car purchases;  newish RAV 4 Hybrid is tops for compact SUVs.  A used one will be on my future shopping list.  My C-max with stock tires.got stuck twice on my driveway this week.   I hope more affordable AWD hybrids appear - adding a second electric motor to rear axle should be relatively cheap and maybe with minimal impact on mpg.

 

This bodes well for future: Prices of electric and hybrid vehicles should come down,   Tesla is predicting price of LiOn battery cells should fall to half of 2016 prices by just 2020.  The Gigafactory, the worlds biggest factory of any kind, has just started battery production near Reno.  Ford's price prediction is more conservative: about a 40% drop over same time period.  Still that should shave 1000s off the manufacturing cost of vehicles with large EV capacity.  And, of course, the cars will drive themselves over to a charging station while I shop.

 

Getting decent snow tires will make a big difference; I drove home after a one day record of 50 cm of snow last winter and made it all the way.

[stolenmoment]

Consumer Reports surveys readers for satisfaction with their car purchases;  newish RAV 4 Hybrid is tops for compact SUVs.  A used one will be on my future shopping list.  My C-max with stock tires.got stuck twice on my driveway this week.   I hope more affordable AWD hybrids appear - adding a second electric motor to rear axle should be relatively cheap and maybe with minimal impact on mpg.

I still believe that hub motors will be "the right thing" for BEVs.  Get rid of the U-joints, the differentials, all those spinning bits.  Lots more room for cargo and passengers.

[ptjones]

I would hope the bigger advantage of battery prices dropping is that it might help hybrids/PHEVs/EVs hold onto their value better. One of the big negatives is the thousands of dollars it might cost if the battery pack fails in a used hybrid.

 

As for the RAV 4 hybrid, my biggest issue is that it isn't really that fuel efficient, at only 34 city/31 highway -- particularly since it isn't that much larger or have any more power than the C-Max.

Driving a RAV 4 Hybrid is like driving a Prius unless you floor it. It has no EV power, didn't like it. :drop:  It's wider but not longer IIRC.

 

Paul

Edited January 10, 2017 by ptjones

[djc]

I still believe that hub motors will be "the right thing" for BEVs.  Get rid of the U-joints, the differentials, all those spinning bits.  Lots more room for cargo and passengers.

Well it is an interesting idea, and the advantages you mention are clear.  But there are cons:

1) motor in a most vulnerable place; 2) motor subject to constant shock from pot-holes etc. and 3) a principle of good car design is to minimize unsprung weight.  As I remember, this best keeps tires in contact with the road.  And as I remember slightly less well, some designs (mid-century Citroen?) even moved the disc brakes to the center of the car to reduce wheel weight.

So, like most design choices, there are trade-offs.   Maybe its possible to integrate a hub motor with the brake?  Or, alternatively, build a light weight self-differential motor (with shafts out each end that can turn at different speeds? 

[Kelleytoons]

What I want is NOT a Prius or the Model E (if it's based on a sedan like body like the Prius) but a small SUV Hybrid.  Oh, wait, that's what I have now.

 

So, hell yes I'm going to keep my C-Max and hell yes I'm NOT going to buy what Ford makes next because it appears they have no interest in doing that.  Maybe someone else will, but I'm not holding my breath (because we all know mpg takes a hit when you have a taller car like our babies, and makers are all about getting that precious mpg up there for all to see).

 

I'm not at all hopeful for anything that I want in the realm of hybrids or EVs in the future (luckily I'm an old guy who might not ever need another vehicle).

[raadsel]

What I want is NOT a Prius or the Model E (if it's based on a sedan like body like the Prius) but a small SUV Hybrid.  Oh, wait, that's what I have now.

 

So, hell yes I'm going to keep my C-Max and hell yes I'm NOT going to buy what Ford makes next because it appears they have no interest in doing that.  Maybe someone else will, but I'm not holding my breath (because we all know mpg takes a hit when you have a taller car like our babies, and makers are all about getting that precious mpg up there for all to see).

 

I'm not at all hopeful for anything that I want in the realm of hybrids or EVs in the future (luckily I'm an old guy who might not ever need another vehicle).

 

The Kia Niro seems to be the car that will be the closest to a "C-Max replacement." It is fairly close to the same size, both inside and out, with slightly less power (only 139 hp) but allegedly still fun to drive and with better fuel economy (51/46 mpg for the most common models). The next closest is likely the Prius V; it will be interesting to see what the next redesign of the V will look like (and what the EPA ratings will be).

[ptjones]

The Kia Niro seems to be the car that will be the closest to a "C-Max replacement." It is fairly close to the same size, both inside and out, with slightly less power (only 139 hp) but allegedly still fun to drive and with better fuel economy (51/46 mpg for the most common models). The next closest is likely the Prius V; it will be interesting to see what the next redesign of the V will look like (and what the EPA ratings will be).

Found this NIRO on Fuelly: http://www.fuelly.com/car/kia/niro/2016/arska/534123   NIRO only averaging 45.5 mpg. and  From a performance stand point NIRO isn't that close.  The more I read about the KIA NIRO the more it sounds like a Prius V with less space. Add to that it only has a 30 hp electric motor, 139 total hp and 0-60mph in over 10sec.   , sounds like a Prius V. It will be interesting to see what people think when comparing the CMAX with two electric motors for 60 hp, 188 hp total and 0-60 in 8 sec. and with Grill Covers you can get similar MPG's.  We have many Prius owners that traded in for CMAX's. You would have thought KIA would have come out with a NIRO more sportier than Prius V and It's still only 4mpg better than Prius V.  IMO :)

 

Paul

[raadsel]

Found this NIRO on Fuelly: http://www.fuelly.com/car/kia/niro/2016/arska/534123   NIRO only averaging 45.5 mpg. and  From a performance stand point NIRO isn't that close.  The more I read about the KIA NIRO the more it sounds like a Prius V with less space. Add to that it only has a 30 hp electric motor, 139 total hp and 0-60mph in over 10sec.   , sounds like a Prius V. It will be interesting to see what people think when comparing the CMAX with two electric motors for 60 hp, 188 hp total and 0-60 in 8 sec. and with Grill Covers you can get similar MPG's.  We have many Prius owners that traded in for CMAX's. You would have thought KIA would have come out with a NIRO more sportier than Prius V and It's still only 4mpg better than Prius V.  IMO :)

 

Paul

 

The first problem is that people won't be comparing the C-Max, as it will no longer be available. It is our basis for comparison because we have enjoyed our C-Max cars.

 

Yes, it does appear to be 0-60 in about 9.8 seconds, so about 1.5 seconds slower than the C-Max and a bit faster than any of the Prii. The power of the electric engine does not directly compare to the C-Max because of the different transmissions. From what I've read on the subject, the C-Max electric motors are directly connected to the wheel, where as the Niro electric motor is connected to the transmission -- so the electric motor does not need to be as large.The Niro also needs a bit less power, as the Niro weighs over 500 lbs. less than the C-Max. What hurts the Niro vs. the C-Max is it's smaller 1.6L engine, though it is also one of the issues that helps the Niro get better fuel economy, and that loss (as seen in the 0-60 times)  is not completely offset by the lower weight. 

 

As for fuel economy, we'll see what it looks like as people start driving it. The two issues is, since the Niro isn't sold in the US yet, so the comparison isn't with a US version of the car. Additionally, it is over a relatively short time period (the Niro has only been available a few months, so those averages were done solely during fall/winter) and a very small number of cars. Still, an average of 45 is pretty impressive, the Prius V and C-Max only average about 40 mpg. We also know the stock Niro can do 75 mpg going cross country with no modifications, we have no idea what someone, like a user here, might be able to get with minor modifications (such as grill covers).

 

Initial reports I've seen is that the Niro feels quite sporty, even if it doesn't quite match the C-Max for speed. It will be interesting to see what they are like, once they become available in the US.

[ptjones]

The first problem is that people won't be comparing the C-Max, as it will no longer be available. It is our basis for comparison because we have enjoyed our C-Max cars.

 

Yes, it does appear to be 0-60 in about 9.8 seconds, so about 1.5 seconds slower than the C-Max and a bit faster than any of the Prii. The power of the electric engine does not directly compare to the C-Max because of the different transmissions. From what I've read on the subject, the C-Max electric motors are directly connected to the wheel, where as the Niro electric motor is connected to the transmission -- so the electric motor does not need to be as large.The Niro also needs a bit less power, as the Niro weighs over 500 lbs. less than the C-Max. What hurts the Niro vs. the C-Max is it's smaller 1.6L engine, though it is also one of the issues that helps the Niro get better fuel economy, and that loss (as seen in the 0-60 times)  is not completely offset by the lower weight. 

 

As for fuel economy, we'll see what it looks like as people start driving it. The two issues is, since the Niro isn't sold in the US yet, so the comparison isn't with a US version of the car. Additionally, it is over a relatively short time period (the Niro has only been available a few months, so those averages were done solely during fall/winter) and a very small number of cars. Still, an average of 45 is pretty impressive, the Prius V and C-Max only average about 40 mpg. We also know the stock Niro can do 75 mpg going cross country with no modifications, we have no idea what someone, like a user here, might be able to get with minor modifications (such as grill covers).

 

Initial reports I've seen is that the Niro feels quite sporty, even if it doesn't quite match the C-Max for speed. It will be interesting to see what they are like, once they become available in the US.

The CMAX will be around for another 6 months anyway and KIA NIRO is suppose to be out at end of month or early next. 

The reviews I saw were suppose to be US versions that were being tested in the US.  The info I saw put the NIRO 0-60 mph time about 2 seconds slower than CMAX. Pretty slow IMO. Similar to New Prius.

Base Weight NIRO 3143lbs, CMAX Hybrid 3607lbs  464lbs difference. Transmissions are different, Automatic vs CVT and CMAX's 2 motors are inside of the Transmission, very compact design.

FE  NIRO 45.5 mpg, CMAX 40.5mpg (44mpg with Grill Covers)(the last 7k miles  I've averaged about 52.5MPG Fuelly/53.8MPG Smart Trip)As far as the NIRO getting 76 mpg, It was done by a Professional Hypermiler Drivers, I'm an amateur driver and I've gotten 68 mpg going cross country twice in my CMAX Hybrid, but most people will have difficulty doing that. :sad:  I have gone on the CleanMPG, KIA NIRO site and asked Wayne a number of times on what strategy, suggestions, hints, tips or speeds he used to get that 76mpg record and He has responded with nothing useful , no help there at all other than to say he gets great FE.  :gaah:  :sad: 

As far as KIA NIRO using Grill Covers, if they designed it right it wouldn't  need them. BTW I read somewhere the NIRO has shutters that close at 35 mph, I guess they think it makes it more aerodynamic. :headscratch:  Should be closed all the time IMO. :shift:  :)

 

Paul 

[Kelleytoons]

It's so very sad that once I found a vehicle I liked, they won't make it anymore.  And it sounds like nothing that really compares will ever be available (not to knock this Kia thingee, but one of the big selling points to me was the iPhone and media integration and I doubt they will offer anything as good).

 

I suppose I could look on the bright side and say at least I DID get a C-Max, and perhaps it will outlive me (at my age that's always a possibility).

[raadsel]

The CMAX will be around for another 6 months anyway and KIA NIRO is suppose to be out at end of month or early next. 

 

Which does not help those wanting to replace their C-Max two years from now.

 

The reviews I saw were suppose to be US versions that were being tested in the US.  The info I saw put the NIRO 0-60 mph time about 2 seconds slower than CMAX. Pretty slow IMO. Similar to New Prius.

 

The numbers I've seen have the C-Max Hybrid going 0-60 in 8.1 seconds, the Niro in 9.8; a 1.7 second difference. As I mentioned on the other thread, unfortunately the car is designed to compete with the Prius, which sells more hybrids than all other hybrid cars combined -- so the numbers are much closer to a Prius. OTOH, the Niro does seem designed to feel sporty, and there are reviews that indicate they are successful at lower speeds (under 60 or so).

 

Base Weight NIRO 3143lbs, CMAX Hybrid 3607lbs  464lbs difference.

 

The lightest Niro model is 3106 lbs, so just over 500 lbs less; this is the model that is EPA rated at 52 city, 49 highway, 50 mpg overall. The EX and LX trims are 3,161 and EPA rated at 51 city, 46 highway, 49 overall; it appears the EX (from what I can find now) will be equipped similarly to a C-Max Platinum. 

 

Transmissions are different, Automatic vs CVT and CMAX's 2 motors are inside of the Transmission, very compact design.

 

The Niro also has the electric motor inside the transmission and is quite compact. It is hard to compare to the two but, from what I see, the engine compartments of the C-Max and Niro are similar sized, just that the C-Max has much of the engine under the front dash -- meaning the Niro's is easier to work on.

 

FE  NIRO 45.5 mpg, CMAX 40.5mpg (44mpg with Grill Covers)(the last 7k miles  I've averaged about 52.5MPG Fuelly/53.8MPG Smart Trip)As far as the NIRO getting 76 mpg, It was done by a Professional Hypermiler Drivers, I'm an amateur driver and I've gotten 68 mpg going cross country twice in my CMAX Hybrid, but most people will have difficulty doing that. :sad:  I have gone on the CleanMPG, KIA NIRO site and asked Wayne a number of times on what strategy, suggestions, hints, tips or speeds he used to get that 76mpg record and He has responded with nothing useful , no help there at all other than to say he gets great FE.  :gaah:  :sad:

While the trip was done by a "professional hypermiler," it was also done in the winter in less than ideal conditions (cold, wind, rain). Some of his "test" trips when the car was brand new show what can be done, such as his 50 mile first drive where the car display shows a 49.8 mile trip and averaging 92 mpg. Or a subsequent, longer trip, of 266 miles at 85.3 mpg. He also used the LX trim model, so not the model with the highest fuel economy.

 

I'll be curious to see what Consumer Reports claims about the car. While they don't run cars very fuel efficiently, they will likely determine if the EPA numbers on the car are valid or inflated, such as the did with the Fusion and C-Max.

 

As far as KIA NIRO using Grill Covers, if they designed it right it wouldn't  need them. BTW I read somewhere the NIRO has shutters that close at 35 mph, I guess they think it makes it more aerodynamic. :headscratch:  Should be closed all the time IMO. :shift:  :)

 

Paul 

 

My understanding of the grill covers in the Niro (based on how they work in the Sonata/Optima) is that they close based on temperature and speed, staying closed until the engine is up to operating temperatures and opening only, as needed, to cool the engine. It is sad that Ford never fixed the grill shutters in the C-Max.

[raadsel]

It's so very sad that once I found a vehicle I liked, they won't make it anymore.  And it sounds like nothing that really compares will ever be available (not to knock this Kia thingee, but one of the big selling points to me was the iPhone and media integration and I doubt they will offer anything as good).

 

I suppose I could look on the bright side and say at least I DID get a C-Max, and perhaps it will outlive me (at my age that's always a possibility).

 

I believe most models of the Niro will come with Apple CarPlay. I suspect the LX, EX and Touring models will all have it; the FE might not; this would be in line with other 2017 Kia models, where all but the lowest trims of Apple CarPlay/Android Auto built in. 

[ptjones]

Actually FORD came up with the update in July 2013 for ECM,  which operates on speed and temperature to control the shutters.  The problem is to much air is getting by the shutters.  We will see if the NIRO has the same problem.  :headscratch:

 

Paul

[Kelleytoons]

The lack of CVT alone would be a deal breaker.