EPA may test the C-Max Hybrid

[Bob999]

You sound like a good candidate for my center grill cover which increased MPG by 4-5mpg at 70mph on my CMAX. See previous Posts. I'm in the atlanta area, any chance of trying one on your CMAX? My lifetime average is 45.4mpg and going up. Last tank I got 47.3mpg actual. Most of my driving is between 45-75mph.

 

The CMAX has automatic shutters behind the grill that is supposed to improve mileage.  I have to wonder whether the grill shutters are working on your car if the installation of an external cover has such a substantial effect.

[darrelld]

The CMAX has automatic shutters behind the grill that is supposed to improve mileage.  I have to wonder whether the grill shutters are working on your car if the installation of an external cover has such a substantial effect.

 

The shutters are located behind the grill in front of the radiator. The external grill cover should provide more of an aerodynamic improvement and lower drag coefficient.

[AgentCMAX]

The EPA 2013 top ten list of most efficient cars are out...

 

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp

 

Change the filter to hybrid only (i.e. no EV or PHEV) and you'll see the C-Max gets 2nd spot behind the Prius!  Congrats to Ford!  Awesome job!

[skwcrj]

From the Detroit News:

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121208/AUTO0102/212080368/1361/EPA-will-review-Ford-C-Max--Fusion-47-mpg-claims

 

From the LA Times

 

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-epa-probes-ford-mpg-20121207,0,3832182.story

 

From the USAToday:

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/driveon/2012/12/08/epa-ford-fusion-cmax-hybrids-consumer-reports/1756237/

Edited December 9, 2012 by skwcrj

[RedLdr1]

From the Detroit News:

 

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121208/AUTO0102/212080368/1361/EPA-will-review-Ford-C-Max--Fusion-47-mpg-claims

 

"Most vehicles' real-world gas mileage is less than the EPA sticker number, and can often be 20 percent less than the sticker number depending on speed, temperature and other factors.

 

With hybrids, however, the gap is much wider — as high as a 30 percent drop, the EPA says. And as the fuel efficiency of hybrids continues to climb, the gap is growing wider between EPA figures and real-world fuel efficiency."

 

That information sounds reasonable...and it summarizes what is being said in the majority of the articles.  

 

"Consumer Reports says Toyota Motor Corp.'s Prius falls short of mileage expectations by 6 mpg and the Prius c Two falls short of mileage expectations by 7 mpg."

 

It looks like the EPA needs to investigate Toyota's hybrid MPG claims as well based on that article. 

 

My last tank was 44.6MPG, roughly 6% off the estimated 47MPG, so it looks like I'm in the "acceptable" zone...  :)

[darrelld]

user profile > darrelld > manage ignore prefs > add new user to my list > skwcrj > save changes

Edited December 9, 2012 by darrelld

[CMAX_owner]

"Most vehicles' real-world gas mileage is less than the EPA sticker number, and can often be 20 percent less than the sticker number depending on speed, temperature and other factors.

 

With hybrids, however, the gap is much wider — as high as a 30 percent drop, the EPA says. And as the fuel efficiency of hybrids continues to climb, the gap is growing wider between EPA figures and real-world fuel efficiency."

 

That information sounds reasonable...and it summarizes what is being said in the majority of the articles.  

 

"Consumer Reports says Toyota Motor Corp.'s Prius falls short of mileage expectations by 6 mpg and the Prius c Two falls short of mileage expectations by 7 mpg."

 

It looks like the EPA needs to investigate Toyota's hybrid MPG claims as well based on that article. 

 

My last tank was 44.6MPG, roughly 6% off the estimated 47MPG, so it looks like I'm in the "acceptable" zone...  :)

 

Sure, but keep in mind ConsumerReports.com, GreenCarReports.com, fuelly.com and fuelecomony.gov are all reporting the same findings (which is what I have as well) of 37 mpg. If that's the case, then that's a 22% difference. So if the Prius is off by 6 or 7 (again, we're talking averages here), then they've done a much better job of advertising accurately.

 

The EPA announced yesterday that they are going to investigate these claiims, so I'll save my final judgement until they give their ruling. But as it stands now, I'm willing to lay equal blame with the EPA for their lousy test parameters (only driving up to 60 mph) as I am with Ford. And BTW, I don't doubt that there are people getting mileage around what Ford advertises, but on average, most of us are getting exactly what all the consumer based websites are showing and ConsumerReports.org and Green Cars has reported, which is 37 mpg.

Edited December 9, 2012 by CMAX_owner

[darrelld]

Sure, but keep in mind ConsumerReports.com, GreenCarReports.com, fuelly.com and fuelecomony.gov are all reporting the same findings (which is what I have as well) of 37 mpg. If that's the case, then that's a 22% difference. So if the Prius is off by 6 or 7 (again, we're talking averages here), then they've done a much better job of advertising accurately.

 

The EPA announced yesterday that they are going to investigate these claiims, so I'll save my final judgement until they give their ruling. But as it stands now, I'm willing to lay equal blame with the EPA for their lousy test parameters (only driving up to 60 mph) as I am with Ford. And BTW, I don't doubt that there are people getting mileage around what Ford advertises, but on average, most of us are getting exactly what all the consumer based websites are showing and ConsumerReports.org and Green Cars has reported, which is 37 mpg.

I would like to know the test temperatures that these sources used? Without that parameter the test results are almost meaningless. If they test a Prius for example at 70 degrees and then test the C-Max in the 30's the margin of error will change with the test parameter.

 

Keep in mind Ford publishes EPA test results and markets based on that data. If their test process is flawed as in Hyundai then they will need to make corrections and restate. If the EPA test doesn't reflect the real world thats a seperate issue.

 

As far as being honest with consumers goes remember when Toyota was fined and the CEO hauled before congress for concealing safety defects.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-04-19/toyota-fined-177m-for-hiding-safety-defect/401654

 

[Aptos Driver]

Our only hybrid at this point is a 2012 Camry XLE; EPA fuel economy rating: 40 city/38 highway/40 combined. We've put 6,700 miles on the car and are averaging 40.6 mpg, per the car's computer. So EPA's estimate for our Camry seems to be on the money. Moreover, on extended, mostly highway, trips from Santa Cruz to the SF East Bay to see the grandkids (and their parents) we have routinely recorded 40-42 mpg, better than the EPA's 38 mpg highway rating. Of course, there is some slow-and-go traffic enroute on the approaches to the Bay Bridge -- where the battery/electric motor kick in -- which would help raise the trip mileage. And speaking of running on the battery, I've seen the EV light on the dash illuminate briefly at speeds as high as 45 when I feather the gas pedal and "glide" the car. And that's on a level road, not going downhill.

 

The Camry has a 2.5 L gas engine and generates 200 combined hp between the ICE and the EV. It's surprising to me that our Camry hybrid seems to get better mileage than the 2 L, 188 hp C-MAX.

[ptjones]

Our only hybrid at this point is a 2012 Camry XLE; EPA fuel economy rating: 40 city/38 highway/40 combined. We've put 6,700 miles on the car and are averaging 40.6 mpg, per the car's computer. So EPA's estimate for our Camry seems to be on the money. Moreover, on extended, mostly highway, trips from Santa Cruz to the SF East Bay to see the grandkids (and their parents) we have routinely recorded 40-42 mpg, better than the EPA's 38 mpg highway rating. Of course, there is some slow-and-go traffic enroute on the approaches to the Bay Bridge -- where the battery/electric motor kick in -- which would help raise the trip mileage. And speaking of running on the battery, I've seen the EV light on the dash illuminate briefly at speeds as high as 45 when I feather the gas pedal and "glide" the car. And that's on a level road, not going downhill.

 

The Camry has a 2.5 L gas engine and generates 200 combined hp between the ICE and the EV. It's surprising to me that our Camry hybrid seems to get better mileage than the 2 L, 188 hp C-MAX.

Fuelly CMAX average is up to 39.9 and climbing!  Aptos Driver , I think if you drove a CMAX you would get 2-3 MPG more than Camery and you will love being able to run off the battery at 62+mph.

[AgentCMAX]

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/epa-investigates-ford-hybrid-mpg-figures/

 

"Consumer Reports says its most accurate numbers for the C-Max are 35 mpg city, 38 mpg highway, and 37 mpg combined. The Fusion scored 35 mpg city, 41 mpg highway, and 39 mpg combined."

 

CR's numbers for city driving just doesn't jive with what a lot of people on this forum are getting as well as for a hybrid car in general.  I see many people here posted numbers way above 47 for short trips.  I myself have seen numbers as high as 55+ mpg for short round-trips in the city (range of 5-10 miles).  In my daily commute which includes 45% highway driving and rolling hills, I'm seeing close to 46-47 mpg (50+ miles round-trip for ambient temp of 37-47 deg F).  I haven't check what my tire pressure is (drove it as is since I picked it up from the dealership), but I bet it probably isn't ideal for fuel-efficiency.  So if I were to adjust tire pressure, I may see another 1-2mpg increase.

 

From another article...

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2012/1211/EPA-to-review-2013-Ford-Fusion-C-Max-fuel-economy-claims

 

"Last week, the EPA's Linc Wehrly told AutoNews that fuel economy in hybrids is apt to vary widely -- far more so than in conventional, combustion-engined vehicles. That's because of variables in hybrid systems: the distance a vehicle can travel in electric or assisted mode is subject to fluctuation, and that, in turn, can have an exponential effect on gas consumption."

 

 

The only explanation I can come up with is CR drivers were not maximizing the use of EV mode in their testing or they were not driving efficiently.  The C-Max has lots of power that can be easily tapped into.

Edited December 11, 2012 by AgentCMAX

[AgentCMAX]

On my daily commute to work, traffic on the hwy is congested enough that my speed varies from 30mph to 65mph.  On my back to home from work, I sometimes leave late enough that there is no traffic so I can drive at 65-70mph.

 

With that in mind, I think the HWY portion of the EPA test is legit.  However, I think they need to modify the test to also include a second HWY test where the car is driven at 65mph (minimum) for a longer duration to get the mileage at that speed.  They will then have 3 mpg numbers for the consumers:  HWY (congested), HWY (uncongested), and CITY.  This will give a better picture of the car's MPG in those various scenarios.

Edited December 14, 2012 by AgentCMAX

[Jus-A-CMax]

On my daily commute to work, traffic on the hwy is congested enough that my speed varies from 30mph to 65mph.  On my back to home from work, I sometimes leave late enough that there is no traffic so I can drive at 65-70mph.

 

With that in mind, I think the HWY portion of the EPA test is legit.  However, I think they need to modify the test to also include a second HWY test where the car is driven at 65mph (minimum) for a longer duration to get the mileage at that speed.  They will then have 3 mpg numbers for the consumers:  HWY (congested), HWY (uncongested), and CITY.  This will give a better picture of the car's MPG in those various scenarios.

 

I like this idea. Will it happen, probably not. I think most people when they say see the Highway MPG on the sticker, a majority would assume a steady 65mph uncongested. I did.

[mtberman]

The Toyota Prius C is EPA rated at 53 MPG in the city.  Consumer Reports' review says they got 37 MPG city in the Prius C. That's a 16 MPG deficit.  CR's report from last week was critical of the C Max's "real world" mileage. In it they the say "The largest discrepancy we've previously seen was 7 and 6 MPG for the Toyota Prius C...".

 

So, their report on the Prius C says it performed 16 MPG below its EPA city rating, while this new report says only 7 MPG lower.

 

Which is it?

[AgentCMAX]

...a majority would assume a steady 65mph uncongested. I did.

I must admit I too thought it meant real world hwy speed of 65mph.

[stranger267]

I must admit I too thought it meant real world hwy speed of 65mph.

Real world HW speed (FW speed, not HW) is 70 mph not 65 mph.

 

Traffic flows in CA runs mostly 60 - 80 mph, and I guess that peak is about 70 mph. Most lanes runs +5   but sometimes +10 mph plus sped limit. which is 65 - 70 mph on most freeways. 65 is little too slow, 70 is optimum for driving here.

[MSmith1915]

Looking at specs for both the Prius C and C-Max on http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp  (select no on Include electric (EV) and plug-in hybrid electric (PHEV) vehicles?)  brings up some interesting comparisons.  The Prius C is classified as a compact - C-Max a large car; Prius C 1.5L engine - C-Max 2.0L; the C-Max has 13 cubic feet more passenger space and 7 cubic feet more luggage space.  What I don't understand, is the site calls the Prius C a hatchback and the C-Max a 4 door car.  Wonder what they call that thing in the back of the C-Max that opens up?  The manual calls it a 'Liftgate', I don't know, maybe that's different than a hatchback?

 

Definition from Wikipedia:  A Hatchback is a car body style incorporating a shared passenger and cargo volume, with rearmost accessibility via a rear third or fifth door, typically a top-hinged liftgate

[Jus-A-CMax]

Real world HW speed (FW speed, not HW) is 70 mph not 65 mph.

 

Traffic flows in CA runs mostly 60 - 80 mph, and I guess that peak is about 70 mph. Most lanes runs +5   but sometimes +10 mph plus sped limit. which is 65 - 70 mph on most freeways. 65 is little too slow, 70 is optimum for driving here.

truedat but officially, its 65MPH, I don't think DMV or CHP will be too happy if all the manufacturers started posting mileage at 70mph (unless everyone who drives a car lived between Lancaster and Mojave) or wherever the legal 70MPH signs are.

[stranger267]

truedat but officially, its 65MPH, I don't think DMV or CHP will be too happy if all the manufacturers started posting mileage at 70mph (unless everyone who drives a car lived between Lancaster and Mojave) or wherever the legal 70MPH signs are.

 

Actually they do not complain, as freeways (ones which post 65 mph) are designed for 75 mph and police almost officially encourage 70 mph ttraffic flows as this increase freeway bandwidth (there are even cases when drivers was ticketed for 65 mph in left line, while line was going 75).

 

So cars should run well on 70 mph and not 60; and this satisfy almost all drivers . Other story is that drivers try to keep EV limit speed for beter mpg; 63 mph is too slow and so most drivers go faster and once going faster, it does noyt make much difference to drive 70 or 75; but if maximum EV speed was 70, it cound encourage drivers to drive about 70 and not 75.

[darrelld]

The Toyota Prius C is EPA rated at 53 MPG in the city. Consumer Reports' review says they got 37 MPG city in the Prius C. That's a 16 MPG deficit. CR's report from last week was critical of the C Max's "real world" mileage. In it they the say "The largest discrepancy we've previously seen was 7 and 6 MPG for the Toyota Prius C...".

 

So, their report on the Prius C says it performed 16 MPG below its EPA city rating, while this new report says only 7 MPG lower.

 

Which is it?

I noticed how Consumer Reports glossed over this large discrepancy in the Prius C city mpg and only compared the combined average for their criticism of the C-Max.

[zalusky]

You California guys drive on freeways that actually move during rush hour.  Thats pretty cool.  I drive opposite direction and still only hit 60 mph on average.

[valkraider]

I wish people would remember that the USA is a big place, and not all freeways are the same.

Oregon's maximum speed limit is 65m, we even have several 50mph speed limits on our freeways.  People here drive slower than other places in the country too - lots of people cruise I5 in the Willamette valley at a pokey 50 or 55 mph - even with the 65mph speed limit there...

 

Alaska, Wisconsin, Illinois, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Vermont, New Hampshire, Delaware, Massachussets, Rhode Island, and Connecticut are all 65mph speed limits,

 

California has 70mph speed limits unless you are in a vehicle towing a trailer or a truck. 

 

Texas has the highest speed limits, with one even having an 85mph limit.  Hawaii has the lowest at 60mph.

 

Most of the mountain west and central plains are 75mph.  Almost the entire midwest and southeast are 70mph.

 

And this doesn't even take into consideration the city/rural divide...  Or take into account mountains vs. flatlands, or elevation differences.  Weather and temperature differences, pavement materials even.  Take all of that then throw in personal driving behavior, the weight of the person+cargo, and other factors like climate control preferences and electrical gadgets in the vehicle...

This is why there is no single way to accurately tell someone what fuel economy they will get in a car.  This is why there is the "Your Mileage May Vary" statement.

 

As always - SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT

[Jus-A-CMax]

Actually they do not complain, as freeways (ones which post 65 mph) are designed for 75 mph and police almost officially encourage 70 mph ttraffic flows as this increase freeway bandwidth (there are even cases when drivers was ticketed for 65 mph in left line, while line was going 75).

 

So cars should run well on 70 mph and not 60; and this satisfy almost all drivers . Other story is that drivers try to keep EV limit speed for beter mpg; 63 mph is too slow and so most drivers go faster and once going faster, it does noyt make much difference to drive 70 or 75; but if maximum EV speed was 70, it cound encourage drivers to drive about 70 and not 75.

 

Dude, I think not all CHP has this memo. 2 seasons ago. I was driving 68 - yes 68 - and got pulled over before Bishop. Not even 70 but 68. I was left off with a warning. That 395 is an a$$hole to drive with tons of CHP and yet I see lunatics go at 90+. 

[darrelld]

Consumer Reports EPA variation on Prius city mpg cited by Ford.

 

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/12/cmax-20121215.html

 

At Friday’s event unveiling the new Transit commercial vehicle family for North America (earlier post), Ford’s Raj Nair, group vice president global product development, spent some time addressing the issue of the large discrepancy between real-world fuel economy results for the C-MAX hybrid and its EPA fuel economy ratings—47 mpg (5.0 l/100km) city, highway and combined—earlier highlighted in detail by Consumer Reports.

 

Basically, Ford is standing by the ratings as determined by the current testing protocols, Nair said, but added that “we absolutely agree with EPA that hybrids are far more variable in the test cycle compared to real world driving conditions in conventional vehicles. We are working closely with the agency to determine if any changes are needed for the industry relative to hybrid vehicle testing.

 

Edited December 25, 2012 by darrelld