How long did your original C-max battery last?

[raadsel]

According to C&D the button is like a simple connected jump start from the HVB applying 12V for a few seconds to the 12V battery. Also, C&D notes downsides to Hyundai's approach below.  Replacement cost of the 12V battery could be high as it's integrated into the HVB pack.  This also begs the question of battery degradation over time and warranty coverage of such degradation.

 

"If there’s a downside to this solution, it’s that there are no accessible 12-volt battery terminals—the battery is sealed under the rear seat—so the Ioniq Hybrid may also be the world’s first production car that can’t be used to jump-start another car.

Longevity is another reasonable concern. Hyundai warranties the entire battery pack, including the 12-volt battery, for the original owner’s lifetime, with no restriction on mileage. All subsequent owners are covered for up to 10 years or 100,000 miles. After that, we expect it will cost far more than $100 to replace a custom battery that isn’t designed for easy swapping."

 

I'm not quite sure why the button couldn't be included on every hybrid, I can't see why it wouldn't work equally as well for a lead acid 12V -- it is part of the reason I left out that they included the 12V as part of the LiPo HVB pack. As for longevity, my guess is that the "12V battery" on the Ioniq is maintained (in terms of charge) in a similar manner as the other HVB cells -- not allowed to fully charge or discharge (and likely an additional reason why the button is necessary).

 

I'm guessing Hyundai/Kia testing shows that the "12V battery" cell will last a similar length as the rest of the HVB -- and it appears that LiPo Hybrid batteries are holding up very well in real world use. When you get to the point that you need to replace the HVB, I doubt the extra cell acting as the 12V battery adds much cost. It will be interesting what the cost of replacing that 12V battery is -- if one has to be replaced separately -- and it could easily be that the higher replacement cost is largely offset by replacing it much less often than a traditional lead acid battery.

 

As for not having the posts that would allow you to charge the 12V, or jump start another car, I suspect that was done to protect the battery. I'm guessing the LiPo battery is less tolerant of the mistakes people make using jumper cables -- and a mistake that would cause a 12V lead acid battery to explode would be much worse with a LiPo (particularly when right next to the rest of the HVB). Additionally, with the button to give the 12V a small charge, if the HVB doesn't have enough power to charge the 12V then you have worse issues then just a dead 12V battery and the car will need to be serviced anyway. Last, with portable charges so common now, there is much less need for you to be able to jump start another car.

Edited March 6, 2018 by raadsel

[joe]

UPDATE UPDATE:

In December and this past weekend, the C-Max was dead.  I jumped started both times with no problems.  So, I went to Ford dealer today.  They checked battery and replaced it.  I bought the battery 14 months ago from the dealer which was under warranty - so it cost me nothing.

 

Because the original battery lasted 4 years, it suggests that part of the problem maybe Ford's batteries - some work and some don't work for very long.

[pianewman]

Post #72. I think QC is very inconsistent with batteries in the US...

[jestevens]

Stolenmoment, in the event that the doors won't unlock by radio you can squeeze the two little indents at the top of the FOB to pop up the Ford logo on the back of the FOB just enough to pry it off and get to the "T" shaped safety key underneath.  You can then insert key into driver's side lock of door and twist to be able to unlock.  You can hold FOB up to steering column in order to disable alarm and try to start the car.

 

My understanding is the car does use 12V for all of its accessories but to start the engine it only needs enough to boot the computers, which command the HVB relays to close and command HVB to spin motor generator that is connected to the crankshaft of engine to start the engine.  There is some sort of step-down DC-DC converter that converts HVB DC current to 12V DC current to charge the 12V battery and provide power for accessories once the relays are closed I think.

[ptjones]

The DC to DC converter is located at top right center of ICE compartment. Also the orange tubing is right next to it, pics are from MADMAX in the process of being repaired after hitting deer at the end of 2013. :sad: Needless to say CMAX turned into MADMAX. :rant2:

 

Paul  

Edited March 8, 2018 by ptjones

[plus 3 golfer]

 

 

The DC to DC converter is located at top right center of ICE compartment. Also the orange tubing is right next to it, pics are from MADMAX in the process of being repaired after hitting deer at the end of 2013. :sad: Needless to say CMAX turned into MADMAX. :rant2:

 

Paul  

 

That's the inverter on top of ICE that converts HVB DC to 3 phase AC voltage when motors are using power and  3 phase AC to HVB DC when the electric motors are producing power.  The DC/DC converter is in the rear near the HVB.  It converts HVB DC to 12V DC.

[likeaw]

I have 2013 Cmax which I purchased in Feb 13. Looks like the 12v battery(Group 67R orginal) is going bad. Guess the HV pack is the only thing saving me if I drive on regular basis. I keep one of the Lithium jump starters in vehicle just in case.  Has anyone tried the 90/T5 battery that Sam's sells to use in their vehicle? Looks like it has the same size but bigger CCA and seems to be cheaper ($105.88 in my area) alternative. Looks like Interstate recommends on their web site. Let me know.

Edited April 29, 2018 by likeaw

[plus 3 golfer]

Isn't group 90 longer than the bxt67r?  The length of the 90/t5 is about 1 1/4 inches longer per Interstate and Motorcraft specs than the 67R.  See if there's an extra 1 1/4 in the battery compartment.  Even if it fits in the compartment, cables could be an issue.

 

67R BXT-67R 390 65 8.27 (210) 6.90 (175) 6.90 (175) 30 (13.6)

 

Interstate 90/t5

 

Length9 1/2

Width6 7/8

Height6 7/8

Edited April 30, 2018 by Plus 3 Golfer

[likeaw]

 

Isn't group 90 longer than the bxt67r?  The length of the 90/t5 is about 1 1/4 inches longer per Interstate and Motorcraft specs than the 67R.  See if there's an extra 1 1/4 in the battery compartment.  Even if it fits in the compartment, cables could be an issue.

 

67R BXT-67R 390 65 8.27 (210) 6.90 (175) 6.90 (175) 30 (13.6)

 

Interstate 90/t5

 

Length9 1/2

Width6 7/8

Height6 7/8

 

Interstate site says length of 67R is: Length  9 1/8....Time to open and look I guess.

 

Edit: after looking at battery, dont think it will work as they give you no extra room.

Edited April 30, 2018 by likeaw

[jestevens]

Yes, I think you're pretty much tied into getting the Motorcraft battery, that's why I just let the dealer do it, with special discount from dealer at the time the battery from dealer was the same price as Amazon, plus I would have needed to go buy a few extra tools and then spend 30-45 minutes of my time in 32F weather outside.

[ptjones]

I did it myself, connected jumper battery under the hood, then removed old 12v batt. and put new one in, really easy. :)

 

 

Paul

[joe]

I have a 2013 C-Max.  I replaced the 12v battery after 4 years because batteries usually die at 5 years.  The new battery lasted just about a year.  This March, the battery kept draining to where I had to jump start several times.  I take it to the dealer - they replace the battery at no charge under warranty.  Several weeks ago (June 2018), battery dies again.  Dealer replaces battery under warranty.

 

Conclusion: 

1)  Either the batteries that Ford sells are hit and miss in quality or

2)  Ford suspects (or knows) something more serious is occurring but it's cheaper to replace batteries than to fix the problem.

Note:  We've had a lot of rain this year.  There is a reference about some component that might rust, causing a drain on the battery.  Certainly a possibility.

 

In either case, by carrying my little lithium charger, it's not that big of problem to jump start and as long as Ford continues to replace the battery every so often.

 

I can live with it until the new Ford Escape hybrid arrives.  Hopefully, it won't have the same problem.

[homestead]

Just make sure your key fob has the metal emergency key in case you can't open the door to jump the battery.

[joe]

Yes, I've even practiced using the key and positioning it into the key fob to give the key leverage for unlocking the door.

 

My point is, if one battery lasted 4 years, and 2 subsequent batteries failed, it is most likely the batteries that are defective - not the car.

[pianewman]

2013 Cmax, purchased in Aug, 2016, with 41k miles. 12V battery wouldn't hold a charge, dealership replaced it under warranty.

 

Dec. 2018, 82k miles, 2nd battery failed. Replaced at Ford dealership. 4-year replacement warranty

 

I live in FW, and the selling dealership has told me that they have a chart that shows the average battery lifespan in the DFW region is 27-32 months. My Toyota dealership told me virtually the same thing. DFW heat isn't kind to auto batteries.

[Hatchman]

Just replaced mine this month.   Was dropping to about 11.7 volts after two days of non-use.  Bought it Feb 2013, so after almost 6 years, was probably time for a new one.

 

I will say in 2014 I let the battery die.  Dead as a doornail.  I think I got out of it but left it "on" because the next day it was dead as hell.  It was so dead I couldn't even charge it through the "under the hood" terminals.  It kept trying to start up all systems while I was trying it, since the car was still in the "on" mode.  Still too dead to unlock the back hatch, so I had to crawl through the car and unhook the battery terminals and then charge the battery.  I figured after that drain the battery would be useless but managed to run it for another 5 years.  I do put it on trickle charge when out of town for more than a few days so I'm sure that helped.  

 

But to answer the question, 6 years. 

[fbov]

Mine went into service November 2012, and I'm still on the original battery. It did go dead once, when I failed to pull the radio fuse in time (once in 3 times). Still waiting for untoward behavior. 

Frank

[cmax-nynj]

Just put in a 3rd one at 89K. 2013 CMax, first battery went out in 2015 under warranty.

[Tom]

Just replaced my 2013's 12 volt and key fob batteries.

[plus 3 golfer]

Just replaced my 2013's 12 volt and key fob batteries.

Did the dealer reset the 12 V Battery Monitoring System to indicate a new battery? Otherwise, the charging algorithm will continue to use the calculated energy losses of the old battery in determining the appropriate charging regime. It will mean that the new battery will likely be charged to a lower SOC than it should be.

[Tom]

Did the dealer reset the 12 V Battery Monitoring System to indicate a new battery? Otherwise, the charging algorithm will continue to use the calculated energy losses of the old battery in determining the appropriate charging regime. It will mean that the new battery will likely be charged to a lower SOC than it should be.

The dealer seemed to think the 12V Battery Monitoring System is a computer issue and not related to battery replacement. He kind of blew me off on the matter.  I'm not sure he even knows what the 12V Battery Monitoring System is?

[homestead]

You can start the car with the radio on, then turn off the car and see how long the radio runs before turning off.

It should run 10 minutes if they reset the BMS.   If not take it to a different dealer to have it reset.

[ptjones]

You can start the car with the radio on, then turn off the car and see how long the radio runs before turning off.

It should run 10 minutes if they reset the BMS.   If not take it to a different dealer to have it reset.

I replaced my battery myself and it seems the radio stays on for 10 minutes, I will try to time it.

 

Paul

[plus 3 golfer]

I replaced my battery myself and it seems the radio stays on for 10 minutes, I will try to time it.

 

Paul

That might be possible as you put a lot of miles on your car such that the 12V battery will be charged for a longer time and the SOC would likely remain higher than someone that drives fewer miles and the charging algorithm rarely charges to a higher SOC. I believe that SOC level and amount of charge depleted affects how long before the algorithm sheds load when DCDC converter is off.

 

AFAIK, the BMS battery reset “zeroes out” the battery losses computed from the coulomb counting (integrating the current flow in/out of the battery) and perhaps estimates of self discharge loss. The PCM then continuously uses this data and SOC to calculate a set point charging voltage for the DC/DC converter that will decline over time as the battery reaches what the PCM believes is the current Ah in the battery (New Battery Ah rating less Ah losses less perhaps aging loss). Self discharge is minimal when a battery is new but accelerates as the battery ages from use and self discharge.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Plus 3 Golfer

[Tom]

You can start the car with the radio on, then turn off the car and see how long the radio runs before turning off.

It should run 10 minutes if they reset the BMS.   If not take it to a different dealer to have it reset.

 

I did the 10 minute radio test and my C Max passed!

Thanks to all for your advice.