homestead Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 I have 2013 C-max Hybrid with 58k miles manufactured in feb 2013. So far no problems. I drive 80% city & 20% highway@ about 60mph. What percent of 2013's have had their transmission go bad? My powertrain warranty runs out in april next year and have been wondering if I should replace the car before then. Otherwise I would just keep it since it has been reliable. What are you other owners doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 I would think if you keep driving the way you have been I would think you should be fine. HWY miles puts more tress on the Trans. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 hours ago, homestead said: ... if I should replace the car before (the warranty ran out)... I had a 10/2012 build C-Max with 67K miles and traded it in on the new Escape Hybrid. Partly because I could afford to, partly because of the tranny. My understanding is that Ford is no longer providing full coverage for a new tranny. Paul blew his early, and got a new replacement unit that's served him very well. Faced with a huge number of bad units, Ford decided the failure is a bearing that's not hybrid unique, so your warranty no longer applies. A lot of folks have gone with salvage parts and a private garage. I got a CLUNK one day shifting into reverse, so I had a reason, too... and I'd found the car was losing value at about $100/month. That said, your decision should start by thinking about your transportation needs, finances, annual mileage and what you're willing to repair. With no noises, you might get another 40K miles, especially with a lower-speed usage pattern. If that's several years, it may make sense to keep it with the understanding you'll probably have little value left if it gets noisy. Another option is a newer model year, after Aug, 2015 as I recall. I tried to get one of the last new-build C-Max's in 2018. They are great cars, very reliable, versatile and fun to drive. They fit a ton of stuff, and with electric AC, make a perfect mobile office. We've had lots of owners report high mileage cars with very few problems. Even so, I bailed. The Escape is a very nice car.... Stay well, Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted July 10, 2020 Report Share Posted July 10, 2020 I've got 129 k miles on my 2013 with no apparent transmission issues. Since trade-in value is minimal, I see no reason to trade it. I'm putting less miles on each year as it ages (about 10 k per year now). So, I intend to keep a few more years. However, at the first sign of pending failure (likely whirring noise), I'll trade it and hope to get a couple thousand for it. Ford has a transfer shaft / bearing kit replacement should the bearings start to fail. But, you must catch the failure prior to the output shift boring a hole through the case. If you catch it, you will save the cost difference between a used transmission and the kit less 1.6 hours of labor. My guess maybe a $1000 savings as the labor and other parts required would likely be the same whether replacing transmission or repairing. You can look at the TSBs on the transmission issue and see the labor and likely parts difference between repairing the transmission and replacing the transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted July 11, 2020 Report Share Posted July 11, 2020 I too had a nasty CLUNK (or maybe several) which I think could be what initiates failure. My theory is that the CLUNK hits the shaft with enough force that the press-fit parts separate which allows the shaft to shift sideways. Then things start rubbing and wearing out - hence, there is no "bad" bearing and its not a question of progressive wear-out of normally functioning parts. Check for any whirring sound around 35 mph as you press and release the accelerator - all the while staying in EV. Mine would make a faint sound that came and went as you press and release the accelerator. It may have done this for a year or more. If you have no abnormal sounds and have had no CLUNKS, you may be good for a long time. Not honoring the warranty sounds like a real cop-out for Ford. That shaft couples one of the electric motors directly to the differential and to the ICE through the planetary gears and other motor - and any CLUNK is likely a software bug in the electric motor control algorithms. Sounds hybrid related to me! Still happy with my used replacement transmission after 26k miles (now 198k on car). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted July 11, 2020 Report Share Posted July 11, 2020 (edited) I believe SS’s theory on cause of failure. I’ve been saying the following for a long time. Ford says “ under certain driving conditions”, failures may occur. We need to “figure out” the conditions and mitigate the conditions. Perhaps, the salient point to longevity of the transmission may be avoiding / mitigating the conditions that cause a clunk. A clunk would seem to be caused by an abrupt change in torque like backing off accelerator momentarily (perhaps to engage EV mode when battery SOC is high). Thus, there would be momentary regeneration torque (negative torque to wheels) followed by EV motor torque (positive torque to wheels) as accelerator pedal is pushed to maintain speed. It seems that ICE to EV or EV to ICE torque transfer under normal driving is always seamless as the torque demand on the shaft would always be in same direction and likely the same and not cause a clunk as when going into regeneration (no positive torque demand). I also believe that it may take a substantial number of times of this reversal of torque to shift bearings on the shaft for the clunk to occur. The axial force that the bearing retainers are “holding against” act like a “slide hammer” against the retaining surface. I have heard clunks on rare occasions from front. But, I’m not sure at what speeds or what my exact driving condition were at the time and whether the clunk was from transmission. I’m fairly sure the clunks have occurred at lower speeds (maybe under 45 mph) and not say above 65 mph. I don’t believe I’ve ever experienced a clunk shifting into reverse. I also don’t believe the clunks have occurred when torque was transferred from ICE to EV or EV to ICE. About 70 % of my miles are high speed miles. I always thought (like SS said) the clunks, if from transmission, were an anomaly caused by the control algorithms. Edited July 11, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer obob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted July 11, 2020 Report Share Posted July 11, 2020 In my case, the clunk occurred when I shifted to reverse from park, having just started the car n level ground. Only once. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homestead Posted July 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2020 Ford seems to have trouble making reliable transmissions lately. (explorer,focus) Is the 2020 escape hybrid tranmission a new design? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted July 12, 2020 Report Share Posted July 12, 2020 My understanding is that the new HF45 has the same MG ratings as the 3rd gen HF35, with a larger ICE and fully integrated DC/AC/DC converter. Fewer modules under the hood, and no thick orange (?) cables. Awaiting the Weber State video disassembly.... I expect drivetrain reliability to be similar to post-fix HF35. It seems as if Ford is being careful about this launch. Time will tell. Stay well, Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted July 12, 2020 Report Share Posted July 12, 2020 21 hours ago, Plus 3 Golfer said: I’ve been saying the following for a long time. Ford says “ under certain driving conditions”, failures may occur. We need to “figure out” the conditions and mitigate the conditions. My advice is to never use 'L' on the shifter or even allow engine braking to occur while using the "down hill" mode. As best I recall, my worst clunk came at the end of a long down-hill run where the battery was full and I had used 'L' for engine braking. I think it happened when I came to a stop or shifted out of 'L' and occered well before I started hearing the whirring sound. It might be that the "engine braking" code didn't get tested as much as code for the more common events like EV / ICE transitions or regenerative braking. IMO, engine braking is less then useless! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted July 12, 2020 Report Share Posted July 12, 2020 I got into engine braking many times, but never used 'L.' No way you can miss it when it happens. On the same routes, Escape never uses engine braking, even with hill assist activated. Not sure where the energy goes once HVB is full, but regen braking drops to 25 kW max. when the C-Max would be using the engine. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plus 3 golfer Posted July 12, 2020 Report Share Posted July 12, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, SnowStorm said: My advice is to never use 'L' on the shifter or even allow engine braking to occur while using the "down hill" mode. As best I recall, my worst clunk came at the end of a long down-hill run where the battery was full and I had used 'L' for engine braking... An Ah-ha moment, I believe that’s when I heard a load clunk at least once. On most of our trips back East, I’d take US 60 out of Phoenix and drive through the Salt River Canyon in the mountains using hill assist and “L” instead of friction brakes. A few times I had no traffic and made it all the way down without using friction brakes going down about 5 miles and IIRC 1800 feet with hair pins turns. My speeds would range from about 60 mph down to 15 mph around the hairpins. I believe the loud clunk may have happened when I shifted out of low at lower speeds. I can’t recall whether hill assist was on / off as I would also toggle it. Edited July 13, 2020 by Plus 3 Golfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted July 13, 2020 Report Share Posted July 13, 2020 Very interesting. Let's develop this theory a bit further. What do we know (or think we know)? Moving the shifter does nothing mechanical (except parking paw) so any changes are electrical. During ICE braking (HVB full) the traction motor is free spinning but the starter/generator is supplying torque to force the ICE to spin. The torque value might be quite high. (I suppose Forscan would tell us but "not on my watch"!) While moving slowly under engine braking conditions, the ICE may be at 4000+ rpm so the starter/generator will also be spinning very fast. While coasting (HVB full with no ICE braking) both electric motors have torque values of zero (?). Shifting out of 'L' (and even coming to a complete stop) can leave ICE still running (I assume to cool it down??). This action means that fuel has been turned ON. An exit from ICE braking mode would (I think) require a drastic change in the nature of power applied to the starter/generator. Combine this change with fuel being turned on to the ICE spinning at 4000 rpm and its not hard to imagine some faulty control logic that could wreak havoc to the desired torque. The Escape Hybrid logic for ICE braking may have been changed significantly (or eliminated?). Ford says "under certain driving conditions” but, conveniently, doesn't say what they are! Thoughts, corrections, or other "clunky" experiences anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted July 13, 2020 Report Share Posted July 13, 2020 On 7/11/2020 at 2:09 PM, fbov said: In my case, the clunk occurred when I shifted to reverse from park, having just started the car n level ground. Only once. Frank Was ICE already running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted July 13, 2020 Report Share Posted July 13, 2020 2 hours ago, SnowStorm said: Was ICE already running? No. I see a problem in your second and third steps. 2 hours ago, SnowStorm said: During ICE braking (HVB full) the traction motor is free spinning but the starter/generator is supplying torque to force the ICE to spin. The torque value might be quite high. I believe the starter/generator is not moving much, and I don't see why it would be active, save to change its own speed. Try it on the simulator. ICE speed changes nicely with vehicle speed. At 40 MPH, I get 2340 RPM on Tractor, 1696 RPM on ICE and 20 RPM on Charger. http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ #4 sounds right, save for their own speed control torques. Remember, speed is determined by AC frequency from the controller. Very few of us have motors like this in our daily experience. Torque (current) and speed (frequency) are independent. I'm thinking Hill Assist only; never really used 'L' so I can't comment on 5, but 6 kind of goes away of I've got 2 & 3 correct. Stay well, Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted July 13, 2020 Report Share Posted July 13, 2020 10 hours ago, fbov said: I believe the starter/generator is not moving much, and I don't see why it would be active, save to change its own speed. Try it on the simulator. ICE speed changes nicely with vehicle speed. At 40 MPH, I get 2340 RPM on Tractor, 1696 RPM on ICE and 20 RPM on Charger. Well, I've seen the ICE up around 4000 rpm during engine braking. Running the simulator at 20 mph and ICE at 4000 rpm would, if possible, push MG1 over 11,000 rpm! I guess its not possible on the Prius but is on the C-Max (or close anyway). I still see MG1 as being very active in order to force the braking torque into the ICE. Otherwise, the ICE would just stop spinning and MG1 would be spinning backwards at a much slower speed. The reason I put that ? mark on number 4 was because I thought I remembered reading about some scenario where energy was feed from one motor to the other - but I doubt that applies here. You are right, torque can be controlled to any value and polarity, independent of speed. Permanent magnet motors with rotor position sensors let you do whatever you want - in all 4 quadrants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fbov Posted July 13, 2020 Report Share Posted July 13, 2020 But I bet you're going a lot faster than 20 mph to see 4000 RPM on ICE. I found ICE RPM a function of both speed and grade. That is, the energy absorbed by the ICE depends on both kinetic energy, and the rate of transfer of potential energy into kinetic energy. Hill Assist in C-Max is designed to prevent runaway. It is true that Torquer RPM is tied to the road speed, so Charger RPM is the only way to change ICE RPM, and so control the descent. At the same time, this only occurs when HVB is full, and there's no shortage of regen power to drive the Charger's control of ICE RPM. But I don't see the Charger offering any braking force - that would create electricity - so it's torque is limited to speed control. Regardless the details, the absence of engine braking in the new Escape's Hill Assist is telling. Stay well, Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted July 13, 2020 Report Share Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, fbov said: Regardless the details, the absence of engine braking in the new Escape's Hill Assist is telling Well, I wish the C-Max was the same as there are times when it is a super nice feature - but I don't want ICE spinning up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takingittothemax Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 (edited) I'm almost loathe to post this here, but is this metallic/grinding noise (you can hear it around the 5 or 6 sec mark) a sign of impending HF35 failure? I haven't noticed this noise until recently, and only because I'm now willing to drive the car with the windows down on occasion. I can't hear it with the windows up, but windows down the noise can be heard echoing off other cars or road barriers. Recording this on a quiet roundabout in a park with my phone placed on the curb, so I'm guessing it audible to anyone outside the car. My 2014 Hybrid SEL was in EV mode at the time, by the way. metallic noise.wav Edited July 18, 2020 by takingittothemax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowStorm Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 I don't recall ever hearing of transmission noises being audible outside rather than inside. I can't make much from the recording but perhaps its a brake or CV joint problem (does it happen going straight?). Also, the A/C compressor is quite noisy outside the car. takingittothemax 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takingittothemax Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 27 minutes ago, SnowStorm said: I don't recall ever hearing of transmission noises being audible outside rather than inside. I can't make much from the recording but perhaps its a brake or CV joint problem (does it happen going straight?). Also, the A/C compressor is quite noisy outside the car. I noticed the A/C compressor is kinda loud, so I made sure it was off even though it was 90F outside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philie Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 Would there be any chance to get the transmission replaced by ford prior to a complete failure? I am still within the warranty of 8 years / 100k with my 2013 SEL and am undecided whether to get rid of the car. I imagine to sometimes hear a whining sound but other than that the car is perfectly fine and we appreciate it a lot. I thought about a transmission oil change at 76k to get the transmission oil testet for metal residues. Would that hold up at a ford dealer for replacement? Any other options you would recommend for minimizing the resk of a transmission failure of a 2013 model? Thanks a lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptjones Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 I don't think so, your will be worth more after trans change. They will check it to see if they hear noise. What kind of driving do you do? City or HWY? HWY is harder on trans. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philie Posted July 31, 2020 Report Share Posted July 31, 2020 doing a mix of both, mostly city with around 5 miles of hwy for my commute and then some extended weekend trips every 2nd or 3rd weekend ( 200miles hwy approx ). Really annoyed by the fact that I can not take any precautions as we really love the car and do not want to get rid of it however the anxiety of coming to a point where one has to reinvest 50% of the cars value is just crazy and seems stupid to be honest. Well I have until next august but it would almost be better if the tranny failed before that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highway Posted June 14, 2021 Report Share Posted June 14, 2021 NEW QUESTION: I have had a '13 SEL hybrid for 3 years; now approaching 90k miles. I have had zero problems with transmission and try to look and listen for cues discussed on this site. In the next 6 months I'm planning to make a couple of road trips, probably 2 or 2.5 k total miles on each trip. My question--if a transmission issue starts to develop on these trips, under most scenarios can I expect to be able to drive/limp home before dealing with replacement? 2) Any symptoms I might be aware of during a trip to signal possible rapid deterioration and need to have it looked at before driving all the way home ? I would trust my home-base mechanic to competently replace the trans; would hope not to have to take pot-luck on the road. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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